I pretty much agree but I don't know what you hope to accomplish by belittling his entire career. I mean yes, he had help but players don't just put up those kinds of numbers by accident or by being a passenger. He is a proven 70 point center, and he's certainly capable of being one again but just not in Buffalo. That much we pretty much all agree on. A change will do him and the Sabres good.
I'm not belittling his career. I'm saying that he's a supremely talented player [as evidenced by his point totals] but in spite of that, he's a line killer.
I'm not belittling his career. I'm saying that he's a supremely talented player [as evidenced by his point totals] but in spite of that, he's a line killer.
Are you trying to tell me that my public HS education reading comprehension level has failed me yet again!? Curse you marijuana!!!
Anyways, it could certainly be his attitude that makes line chemistry difficult to find. Although he looked like he was going to carry a line two years ago, scoring a PPG before getting hurt. Which interestingly enough, is when the team decided to start winning hockey games.
I don't know. Contract-year Roy could be very good - especially if he is finally fully recovered from his injury, which I believe still plagued him this season. If he can come back as 2010 PPG Roy as our 3rd line center and depth center, we will be in good shape. Obviously, I'd trade him in a second to upgrade at center, but otherwise, I don't believe he is pure addition by subtraction. He still has substantial value to the team if used correctly.
I'm worried Roy's value is too low. This year was one of his worst seasons, and he still might be effected by injuries. Would any team want to risk it?
I'm worried Roy's value is too low. This year was one of his worst seasons, and he still might be effected by injuries. Would any team want to risk it?
I'm sure some teams would risk it. He's not an older player, he's not slow, his production is only recently down. But his overall history, well his point production speaks for itself. Some teams would take the risk on Roy.
His value will be very good at the trade deadline. I highly doubt, unless the team overall stinks offensively again, that Roy doesn't put up around 45 pts by the deadline. His trade value will be very high as a near PPG, 2nd line center and pending UFA. Any team in playoff position and in need of offense will pay a 1st rd pick. Any team with playoff expectations that loses a top two center earlier in the seaon will also pay a 1st rd pick. Regier could even hold out and probably get another pick/prospect as well. Just because we're tired of Roy doesn't mean other teams won't over-value him. On paper he looks good, so we may as well get the best deal possible, and waiting increases the chances of that.
I don't know why we are not talking to Toronto for Roy +12th for the 5th or NYI or Montreal and try to land Grigorenko or Galchenyuk.
One year of Roy is fairly worthless to bottom-feeder teams who can't even be sure about making the playoffs next year. On the other hand, he would be worth quite a bit to contending teams looking for a rental to put themselves over the top. Unfortunately, trading up in the draft and trading with a contending team are not compatible
One year of Roy is fairly worthless to bottom-feeder teams who can't even be sure about making the playoffs next year. On the other hand, he would be worth quite a bit to contending teams looking for a rental to put themselves over the top. Unfortunately, trading up in the draft and trading with a contending team are not compatible
You speak for all GMs? Both Toronto and Montreal are looking for center help. Roy can always sign an extension(Jan 1st).
Ok, assume contract year Roy is playing out of his mind. The Sabres in turn are hot and in a great playoff position at the deadline. What do you do? Do you trade a valuable member of your playoff team? Do you resign him so you don't lose him? Do you let him walk for nothing?
What if he instead gets injured or has another bad season that begins to look like a downward spiral further lowering his value?
I don't like the idea at all of keeping him for next season unless they intend to resign him and I can't think of too many people that would be on board with that.
I of course want to see a bigger deal go down to get us a top center, but the best situation for the team both on the ice and off it would appear to be get the best value for him at the draft.
If Goose got us a 1st. Roy will command much more than that.
i actually dont agree.
at the deadline, a contender is looking to add a very specific kind of player. which is what goose is. a guy who can give you big faceoffs, physical play, and pk minutes.
derek roy is a top 6 center... and sorry, but no contender is looking to add that type of player at the deadline. teams aren't looking for 5'9 offensive forwards who have accomplished nothing in the playoffs in the last 5 years.
antoine vermette went for a 2nd and 4th... of course he had years left, and you can see that as a positive or a negative... but i dont think roy goes for more then goose when you weigh what vermette went for.
when someone can reference a draft day deal that they can relate to the value of derek roy, or a deadline deal... im all ears
at the deadline, a contender is looking to add a very specific kind of player. which is what goose is. a guy who can give you big faceoffs, physical play, and pk minutes.
derek roy is a top 6 center... and sorry, but no contender is looking to add that type of player at the deadline. teams aren't looking for 5'9 offensive forwards who have accomplished nothing in the playoffs in the last 5 years.
antoine vermette went for a 2nd and 4th... of course he had years left, and you can see that as a positive or a negative... but i dont think roy goes for more then goose when you weigh what vermette went for.
when someone can reference a draft day deal that they can relate to the value of derek roy, or a deadline deal... im all ears
I've seen the Olli Jokinen deals brought up.
Quote:
January 30, 2005.Traded to Phoenix by Florida for Keith Ballard, Nick Boynton and Ottawa's 2nd round choice (previously acquired, later traded back to Phoenix - Phoenix selected Jared Staal) in 2008 Entry Draft, June 20, 2008.
March 4, 2009: Traded to Calgary by Phoenix with Phoenix's 3rd round choice (later traded to Florida - Florida selected Josh Birkholz) in 2009 Entry Draft for Matthew Lombardi, Brandon Prust and Calgary's 1st round choice (Brandon Gormley) in 2010 Entry Draft, March 4, 2009.
February 2, 2010: Traded to NY Rangers by Calgary with Brandon Prust for Chris Higgins and Ales Kotalik, February 2, 2010.
All were midseason. His contract during that time was a cap hit of 5.25M, UFA in 2010. I'm more inclined to think the first two deals are more similar to what Roy might get, whereas the third deal...Jokinen did not fit in Calgary at all that time.
But basically, it's an established roster player (Ballard/Lombardi), depth player (Boynton/Prust), and a pick.
All were midseason. His contract during that time was a cap hit of 5.25M, UFA in 2010. I'm more inclined to think the first two deals are more similar to what Roy might get, whereas the third deal...Jokinen did not fit in Calgary at all that time.
But basically, it's an established roster player (Ballard/Lombardi), depth player (Boynton/Prust), and a pick.
except, the first 2 trades were when Jokinen had years left on his deal. the NYR deal is a good comparison though, i agree. Roy doesn't fit in Buffalo
except, the first 2 trades were when Jokinen had years left on his deal. the NYR deal is a good comparison though, i agree. Roy doesn't fit in Buffalo
The second deal was 1.5 years left (less actually since it was at the deadline). But Roy's cap hit is also significantly less. So it's not exact either way.
And Jokinen was a disaster in Calgary that stint IIRC. I'd say Roy fits here better than Jokinen fit there.
In the end, decent roster player + depth player + pick is probably the best you can get if you sell him.
For an example, the Leafs comparable might be: Bozak + Frattin + 2nd.
So let me ask this: how many people make that deal?
One year of Roy is fairly worthless to bottom-feeder teams who can't even be sure about making the playoffs next year. On the other hand, he would be worth quite a bit to contending teams looking for a rental to put themselves over the top. Unfortunately, trading up in the draft and trading with a contending team are not compatible
The second deal was 1.5 years left (less actually since it was at the deadline). But Roy's cap hit is also significantly less. So it's not exact either way.
And Jokinen was a disaster in Calgary that stint IIRC. I'd say Roy fits here better than Jokinen fit there.
In the end, decent roster player + depth player + pick is probably the best you can get if you sell him.
For an example, the Leafs comparable might be: Bozak + Frattin + 2nd.
So let me ask this: how many people make that deal?
uh... i'd trade Roy for Bozak straight up
but im a biased hater or something
(or rational about player value)
I'd be interested to see Roy on Hodgson's wing if he's still on the team next year. Then put a physical guy on the other wing to compliment them. Similar to the Roy, Drury, and Grier setup.
I don't know what else to tell you. I try to describe logically why a team in their position wouldn't want Roy. I try to tell you to go ask the people who do nothing but think from that team's point of view. No I cannot make Brian freaking Burke post on HF to confirm that the Leafs wouldn't be interested in a Roy-for-1st deal, but thats not the standard around here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
Who said he had to be traded for pick?
The post I was responding to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres
This +1
I don't know why we are not talking to Toronto for Roy +12th for the 5th or NYI or Montreal and try to land Grigorenko or Galchenyuk.
I don't know what else to tell you. I try to describe logically why a team in their position wouldn't want Roy. I try to tell you to go ask the people who do nothing but think from that team's point of view. No I cannot make Brian freaking Burke post on HF to confirm that the Leafs wouldn't be interested in a Roy-for-1st deal, but thats not the standard around here.
Columbus:
Derek Roy
Buffalo 1st 2012
Nashville 1st 2012
Cond Buffalo 2nd 2012 (if Roy doesn't resign)
Idea here is to draft Galchenyuk. Then our center situation is Ennis, Galchenyuk, Hodgson and Adam for the next 5-6 years (with Adam being replacable)
Columbus does it to get a center who can play with Nash (replace Carter). They can pick up one of the top d-men with Buf's pick and there is Nashville's sweetner. The Cond (may be too high) is to give Columbus something when Roy leaves them next year.
Columbus:
Derek Roy
Buffalo 1st 2012
Nashville 1st 2012
Cond Buffalo 2nd 2012 (if Roy doesn't resign)
Idea here is to draft Galchenyuk. Then our center situation is Ennis, Galchenyuk, Hodgson and Adam for the next 5-6 years (with Adam being replacable)
Columbus does it to get a center who can play with Nash (replace Carter). They can pick up one of the top d-men with Buf's pick and there is Nashville's sweetner. The Cond (may be too high) is to give Columbus something when Roy leaves them next year.
The thing is the Columbus was shopping Nash and still might be in the offseason. They're in full rebuild mode now. So why would they give up a #2 overall for a one year rental and two lower tier first rounders when they can shop Nash for even better and keep the pick and draft a new #1 future center.
This isn't the NFL where a couple of mid first rounders are just as valuable as a 2-4 pick. The drop off in quality of talent is huge. There are some draft years where only a half of the top ten drafted players even make an impact in the NHL while most of the remaining first rounders are busts.
Your not going to land a top 3 pick with a scrub like Roy and some mid level picks.
I don't know what else to tell you. I try to describe logically why a team in their position wouldn't want Roy. I try to tell you to go ask the people who do nothing but think from that team's point of view. No I cannot make Brian freaking Burke post on HF to confirm that the Leafs wouldn't be interested in a Roy-for-1st deal, but thats not the standard around here.
The post I was responding to:
You deal logically with facts yet you don't read the post nor do you quote it properly.(shaking my head)
I proposed Roy + Buf 1st for Toronto OR NYI OR MON PICK
that is Derek roy to move up 7-9 spots not Roy for Tor 1st.
In typical hockeybuzz fashion you butcher it. I think someone like the Islanders could bite. The Islanders and also looking for defencemen we have extra.
