I can. We suck at developing players. We have for a loooong time. JT didn't go through our development, Moulson didn't, Streit didn't, PAP didn't.....I firmly believe there are huge gaps in the overall game in our developmental program. Namely the physical game (OH! Wang no like violence!) and the power foreward game (I never see anyone in orange drive up the middle unless they're on a breakaway).
So I'd prefer to leave important prospects to those who actually can teach the game of hockey well.
Well of were gonna say "JT didn't go through our development" then you're also going to give a pass so far as to what Bailey and Nino are so far, because neither of them were in our system before being thrown to the wolves. Those were bad decisions, and poor development, but not poor development within the system, as in the players going to the Bridge and learning how to play.
Hamonic, Martin, Nielsen and Okposo have all had their best seasons to date so far. They may be frustrating at points, but I don't think it has to do with poor development in the AHL as much as not being put in better positions with talented vetrans at the pro level.
This year we've seen deHaan get named to the AHL all star game. Both of Nillsion and Poulin have won goalie of the month down there. Cizikas a won player of the month and got to go to the AHL ASG. Matt Donovan was named to the AHL All Star rookie team. David Ullstrom has been a nice player and looks like he has a shot at being a good pro. I haven't mentioned Andy Mac. He hasn't progressed as well as I'd like this year but were also talking about a kid who was a 6th round pick, drafted in favor of Ted Nolan.
The Islanders have not been nearley as bad as developing players in the Bridge the last few years as you would think. Every one looks at Bailey and now Nino, but if they don't get credit for JT then the developmental side of Bridgeport shouldnt take a knock for JB or Nino.
You wanto to get into whether Bailey or Nino were the right picks, thats fine. But that has nothing to do with the development at the AHL level. I think alot of it has to do with drafting no special talents outside of JT.
If the Lottery goes our way and we draft Stamkos instead of Bailey, then we decide to draft Skinner over Nino, all of a sudden with all things being equal, without those 2 ever playing in the AHL, every one would think we've done a much better job at developing players.
I do understand that all aspects of developing players count, not just when they get to the AHL. However, in my original post, I said as long as they don't screw up and throw Brock into the mix right away, which would be awful, it would be better for him to play a whole year at the AHL then NCAA, and I still believe that.
19 goals 52 points at 21 in in your second full year is generally considered impressive unless you live under a rock or something.
The reality is that this team hasn't signed any mobile d-men, plays a collapse style defense that hinders breakouts, and all its young players are forwards now being trapped in their own zone by their own defense.
The reality is that there is nothing wrong with Okposo, Nielsen, Tavares, Hamonic, Martin, and MacDonald is probably having a better year (ditto for the much beloved but still raw Hamonic) if he didn't get his PP time bumped.
The problem is this franchise is AWFUL at drafting and developing. In the past 20 years there has been ONE 1st rounder that has worked out well for the team, and that was a no-brainer 1st overall pick.
Nino has no business being in the NHL-none. And you can play "what-ifs" with every player. What if player A was on the power play? He'd be playing more-well of course. But it's an excuse. You have to EARN it-not have it handed to you.
That's something this fanbase (especially on HF) can't grasp. They all whined and screamed bloody murder when Tambo wasn't played that much. I remember being laughed at, ridiculed, called dumb, etc. by many posters here. And how did that work out?
If a youngster isn't able to EARN power play time, a spot on the team, play well-then they shouldn't be put into that position until they're ready to do so. It doesn't work. Never has-never will. This organization rushes them for two reasons: 1) it's cheaper 2) it gets fans excited. But it doesn't translate to winning games-and that's what I care about.
Well of were gonna say "JT didn't go through our development" then you're also going to give a pass so far as to what Bailey and Nino are so far, because neither of them were in our system before being thrown to the wolves. Those were bad decisions, and poor development, but not poor development within the system, as in the players going to the Bridge and learning how to play.
Hamonic, Martin, Nielsen and Okposo have all had their best seasons to date so far. They may be frustrating at points, but I don't think it has to do with poor development in the AHL as much as not being put in better positions with talented vetrans at the pro level.
This year we've seen deHaan get named to the AHL all star game. Both of Nillsion and Poulin have won goalie of the month down there. Cizikas a won player of the month and got to go to the AHL ASG. Matt Donovan was named to the AHL All Star rookie team. David Ullstrom has been a nice player and looks like he has a shot at being a good pro. I haven't mentioned Andy Mac. He hasn't progressed as well as I'd like this year but were also talking about a kid who was a 6th round pick, drafted in favor of Ted Nolan.
The Islanders have not been nearley as bad as developing players in the Bridge the last few years as you would think. Every one looks at Bailey and now Nino, but if they don't get credit for JT then the developmental side of Bridgeport shouldnt take a knock for JB or Nino.
You wanto to get into whether Bailey or Nino were the right picks, thats fine. But that has nothing to do with the development at the AHL level. I think alot of it has to do with drafting no special talents outside of JT.
If the Lottery goes our way and we draft Stamkos instead of Bailey, then we decide to draft Skinner over Nino, all of a sudden with all things being equal, without those 2 ever playing in the AHL, every one would think we've done a much better job at developing players.
I do understand that all aspects of developing players count, not just when they get to the AHL. However, in my original post, I said as long as they don't screw up and throw Brock into the mix right away, which would be awful, it would be better for him to play a whole year at the AHL then NCAA, and I still believe that.
great post.
i guess you are saying there are several facets to good development. However it is still obvious that the franchise is definetly lacking in at least a few of these elements.
just how good the Islesdevelopment system is, depends on how far you go back. we've only had a dedicated farm team for what, 6 years now? the first few years were terrible, but i feel that the last few years, they have been going in the right direction...
just how good the Islesdevelopment system is, depends on how far you go back. we've only had a dedicated farm team for what, 6 years now? the first few years were terrible, but i feel that the last few years, they have been going in the right direction...
6 years?!?!? Try 11! Bridgeport's inaugural season was 2001-2002 and included Dipietro, Torres and Hunter. The first season the had the most pts in the league and lost in the calder cup finals.
BTW, trading Grabner away would be extremely dumb! There is not one player in the NHL that can skate with this guy & that is a great skill in itself. Patience people, experience is an amazing thing, let him get some.
The problem is this franchise is AWFUL at drafting and developing. In the past 20 years there has been ONE 1st rounder that has worked out well for the team, and that was a no-brainer 1st overall pick.
Nino has no business being in the NHL-none. And you can play "what-ifs" with every player. What if player A was on the power play? He'd be playing more-well of course. But it's an excuse. You have to EARN it-not have it handed to you.
That's something this fanbase (especially on HF) can't grasp. They all whined and screamed bloody murder when Tambo wasn't played that much. I remember being laughed at, ridiculed, called dumb, etc. by many posters here. And how did that work out?
If a youngster isn't able to EARN power play time, a spot on the team, play well-then they shouldn't be put into that position until they're ready to do so. It doesn't work. Never has-never will. This organization rushes them for two reasons: 1) it's cheaper 2) it gets fans excited. But it doesn't translate to winning games-and that's what I care about.
I wouldn't exactly call okposo, Connolly, Torres, Rupp, Luongo, brewer, Dumont,redden, Bertuzzi, and kasparitis First round blunders though. Sure only a few of them had an impact here/were used in impact trades,
but it isn't like the team is constantly picking players who never make it.
You know whats good for developing players? DON'T TRADE THEM AWAY!!!!
Patience, patience, patience! The Devils & Wings do this well!
Averaging 1 impact player (top 6 forward, top 4 dman, starting goalie) every draft is pretty good regardless of where you pick.
Here's a look at impact players we've collected through the draft since 2006:
2006 Kyle Okposo (6th overall). I personally think it takes about a full season to recover after missing a full season prior. It's like that in almost every sport. He looks to be back, and I believe he's a top 6 forward. Some may disagree.
2007 None.
2008 Travis Hamonic (53rd overall). He's currently our best all-around dman. Only 21, should only get better. Definitely top 4 material on most teams. Has top 2 upside if offense catches up. Currently Bailey, Martin are bottom 6 forwards. Potential impact players: Petrov, Donovan, Ullstrom, Poulin. Role playing types like Ness, and Dibenedetto may also see significant NHL time. A pretty great draft, all things considered.
2009 John Tavares (1st overall). Already a top 5-10 center in the league at age 21. Considering his developmental curve thus far, wouldn't be surprised to see him in the top 5 for years. Other potential impact players: de Haan, Nilsson. Cizikas looks like he has the potential to be an excellent bottom 6 center for years. Koskinen and Lee can also see the NHL at some point, likely as role players.
2010 and 2011 too early to judge.
So since 2006 we've only had Okposo, Tavares, and Hamonic make an impact on the NHL team. But there are a lot of raw pieces on the horizon. Even if half of the players listed above as potential impact players pan out, we'd be averaging more than 1 per draft year.
The Isles drafting has been miles ahead of where it was back in the early-mid 2000's. Dating back to 2000 when Luongo was traded and we took DP and Torres over Gaborik/Heatley, then 2001 when we traded Chara and the 2nd overall(Spezza) for Yashin, but then check out this 1st round rough patch:
These picks were during our "semi-compete" phase. We were good enough to compete for, or barely make the playoffs, and ultimately missed on every 1st rounder we had.
Obviously Bergenheim is still in the league and is decent in the right role, but I think the only other guy who's even in the NHL right now is Nokelainen. I believe he's a 4th line guy for Montreal right now.
4 years in a row of 1st-round misses... no wonder this team is still rebuilding.
I wouldn't exactly call okposo, Connolly, Torres, Rupp, Luongo, brewer, Dumont,redden, Bertuzzi, and kasparitis First round blunders though. Sure only a few of them had an impact here/were used in impact trades,
but it isn't like the team is constantly picking players who never make it.
Bertuzzi, Luongo, Dumont, Connolly, and Brewer were blunders for us. They didn't develop under us, or contribute to our team. That's why I said a 1st rounder that has been good for this team (not others). Torres is a good player to have on a team (not as 5th overall though). Kasparitis was drafted over 20 years (seasons) ago.
The Isles drafting has been miles ahead of where it was back in the early-mid 2000's. Dating back to 2000 when Luongo was traded and we took DP and Torres over Gaborik/Heatley, then 2001 when we traded Chara and the 2nd overall(Spezza) for Yashin, but then check out this 1st round rough patch:
These picks were during our "semi-compete" phase. We were good enough to compete for, or barely make the playoffs, and ultimately missed on every 1st rounder we had.
Obviously Bergenheim is still in the league and is decent in the right role, but I think the only other guy who's even in the NHL right now is Nokelainen. I believe he's a 4th line guy for Montreal right now.
4 years in a row of 1st-round misses... no wonder this team is still rebuilding.
I agree with you that these draft pics weren't that great but I would just like to point out that Nokelainen was showing excellent promise for the Isles but had that bad knee injury and missed a bunch of games. He was NEVER the same. Also, same thing with O'Marra. Both of those players got bad injuries and just never recovered. I call that bad luck, but yeah you are still right who knows what their ceiling was...
I agree with you that these draft pics weren't that great but I would just like to point out that Nokelainen was showing excellent promise for the Isles but had that bad knee injury and missed a bunch of games. He was NEVER the same. Also, same thing with O'Marra. Both of those players got bad injuries and just never recovered. I call that bad luck, but yeah you are still right who knows what their ceiling was...
The bolded part cannot be harped on enough.
Nokelainen did, and still does, suffer from a chronic knee problem in both knees.
It is an amazing testimony to his will and desire to play through that problem and keep his career going.
It is however a problem that continues to plague him to this day and one that is likely going to have serious aftereffects later in life, especially after the stress he's put on those legs in the meantime.
