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Ducks Defense 2012-2013

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Old
03-19-2012, 11:09 AM
  #1
CrazyDuck4u
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Ducks Defense 2012-2013

ok guys. Im making this thread so we can discuss only the defensive aspect of next years ducks team.. It doesnt mean only defensmen. It means the team defense overall.. Which we all know was horrible this year (except during that little run).
Lets take a look at a couple things..
Visnovsky might retire.. Can Vataten replace him? Is he ready?
Lydman Is hurt and playing hurt- keep him or trade him?
Beach, Fowler, Sbisa is our future..
Brooks needs a contract.. His game has improved.. But will he regress after getting his contract? I think guenin will be his replacement. Cheaper and does the same job well..
The big IF.. Lets say Shcultz does sign.. How will our lineup look like?
Do we sign Suter? ( I would offer no more than 6.5 a year.)

We need a good solid defensive scoring center.. Jarret Stoll would be perfect.. Hes a free agent. Sign him..

In oppinion the defense will be

Fowler, Beach
Suter(if signs) Sbisa, Vatanen..( dont know if hes ready)
Lydman (has a comeback year) Shcultz..( I think he will sign)
Guenin as 7th.

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Old
03-19-2012, 11:23 AM
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5minsforfighting
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Its beyond me why BM hasnt already sign Brookbank to extension.

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03-19-2012, 11:29 AM
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Is Vatanen ready? Probably not.

I'd keep Lydman unless 1) it's clear he'll never recover from his injury and this is now his playing level or 2) we sign Suter. And I'd pay a hell of a lot more than 6.5 for Suter. Our owners wouldn't, but I would. The value of having an elite defenseman couldn't have been made any more painfully obvious to us as fans over the last couple seasons.

It's kind of hard to tell with Brookbank, he seems to alternate good and bad seasons. I think the point about Guenin is well made.

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03-19-2012, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5minsforfighting View Post
Its beyond me why BM hasnt already sign Brookbank to extension.
While Brookbank is having a great season for his standards, he isn't exactly hard to replace, plenty of players like him around the league. And with BM wanting to bring in Schultz on the third pairing it might mean Brookbank isn't needed and they have Guenin as the #7th d-man.

It's hard to say if there is actually room for Brookbank at this stage, and if he does walk he's easy to replace in the end, say compared to a Fowler for example.

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03-19-2012, 11:59 AM
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Rush519
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trade lydman for some cap space for suter, players like suter weber chara dont come around often

beauch suter
fowler sbisa
schultz brookbank (2013 this will be vatanen, it would be good for him to have a year in the ahl)

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Old
03-19-2012, 12:07 PM
  #6
Ducks DVM
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If Lydman has a chronic injury he won't pass a physical = untradable.

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Old
03-19-2012, 12:14 PM
  #7
ShadowDuck
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In a perfect world:
Trade Lubo and Lydman and sign Suter

In the Ducks world:
Keep the defense the exact same.

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Old
03-19-2012, 12:32 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush519 View Post
trade lydman for some cap space for suter, players like suter weber chara dont come around often

beauch suter
fowler sbisa
schultz brookbank (2013 this will be vatanen, it would be good for him to have a year in the ahl)
Suter won't sign in Anaheim. Take it to the bank.

Glad OP mentioned the team's defense in general. I believe that our blueline is solid. Our forwards (this has improved under Boudreau but it's only passable at times so far) need to learn defensive responsibility on and off the puck. You have two defenders on the ice at a time. They cannot be expected to guard 5 players. That was one of my problems with Carlyle's coaching style. I truly felt like the defenders were being told to only defend, and play the man, while the forwards were to only think about how to get the puck back to go back on offense. I hear lot's of people say defense is an area Murray needs to improve this summer. But what is out there that is an improvement over what we've already got, and then a part 2 to that question, how many of them will actually sign with us for what they're actually worth? Wisniewski got an undeserved 5 million dollar paycheck. I wouldn't put Wisniewski on the first pairing and if it was between him and Sbisa, I wouldn't take Sbisa off the second pairing.

If we CAN sign Suter, then by all means do it...hopefully while not crippling this team with an 8 million dollar contract. If that's what it takes, I'd rather take my chances on developing Fowler, Sbisa, Schultz?, Vatanen, and ?Trouba, Dumba, Reinhart and getting them on cheaper contracts and be able to have money left over for a solid offensive roster. Our defense as it stands is solid. Fowler should improve. Sbisa has proven himself. Brookbank is finally useful. Beauchemin is a revelation. Lubo...we'll see, maybe he'll use the summer to get back into form. Lydman...same. Emphasis needs to be placed on having all 5 skaters playing defense. Not applying pressure and expecting the blue-liners to bail you out when a serious chance arises. I've seen too many goals scored where there was nothing our defenders could do because of the distance between the attacker and defender caused by one of our forwards getting burned. This is half of Fowler's +/- rating easily. Look up every game where Fowler gets a minus and watch the goals that caused them. For the most part Fowler will be nowhere near the shooter because he's shooting from another side of the ice, or off the faceoff, or a point shot, or a shot taken before Fowler can even reach his man after receiving a pass.

Our forwards need to be more responsible for the zone behind the faceoff dots. Too many times our line gets stuck in their own zone because they can't clear the zone. And I understand that happens to every team, but it happens to us entirely too much. The games we win are the ones where we're jumping into lanes and collapsing on the puck. That, and the games where Anaheim dictates the pace early. I think that's Anaheim's biggest problem. They play first periods like. Okay, hockey game, another day another game. New York does as well as they do, because they come out fast, they come out strong, and they come out playing like an elite team. Then they don't let themselves get rattled when bad things happen. It's all about dictating pace. We have the ability to do it, what we lack is the consistency.

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Old
03-19-2012, 12:32 PM
  #9
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There are so many intangibles it is hard to know what the Ducks will do for defense for next year. Will Vish retire? Will Lydman recover? Will Schultz sign? Has Murray tried to resign Brookbank, but the problem is that Brookbank wants too much money? Will Vatenan be ready? Are the Ducks going to put money that could otherwise go to helping the defense into replacing forwards who may retire, like Selanne, Koivu and Blake? Until we have more visability, it is unclear what the Ducks can and should do.

It is pretty clear that Beauch, Fowler and Sbisa are the core of the defense for next few years. Lydman will want to play, and I would keep him if we think that Vatenan will be his defense partner. Nothing like pairing fellow countrymen and letting the vet tutor the rookie.

That leaves one starting spot to pair with Sbisa and a spare, which I assume will be Guenin. I think that Clark, in Syracuse, could use another year down in the AHL, but I also think that he will be ready for 2013 duty. As for the starting spot for next year, if Vish does not retire, the spot is his. However, I would try to trade him. He has some value as a PMD and because his cap hit is significantly higher than his salary next year. Some teams, like the Islanders, find that sort of cap hit very favorable.

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Old
03-19-2012, 12:51 PM
  #10
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I would have to agree with duckjet, we have too many players that are completely one dimensional..like blake, who aren;t even that good at their one dimension..but i also think that good defense starts with having puck possession, which means we need to drastically improve out faceoff percentage, we are pretty close to last in the league in FO%. we need a good 2nd line 2 way center..and our energy guys need to be a little more responsible, getzlaf perry and ryan have been getting better so, so just some more motivation. i feel like with a whole off season and training camp boudreau can really hammer in how to play in the new NHL to these guys.

i live on the east coast so its hard to watch 100% of the games but i do try. and i notice and getted annoyed with all the cute plays we try and make..okay maybe in the offensive zone its okay sometimes but we lose the puck a lot in the defensive zone due to cute plays and tapping the puck to softly. the games we dominate we are soo composed in the back end, by back end i mean defensive zone, not just the 2 dman...also i think our team d look worse at the beginning because Hiller wasn;t 100% yet

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Old
03-19-2012, 02:53 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDuck View Post
In a perfect world:
Trade Lubo and Lydman and sign Suter
Isn't Suter a RFA? Getting him means giving up picks.

What about Weber instead. He will be a UFA at about 8 million a year for at least 10 years. Don't think that would work either.

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Old
03-19-2012, 03:02 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
Isn't Suter a RFA? Getting him means giving up picks.

What about Weber instead. He will be a UFA at about 8 million a year for at least 10 years. Don't think that would work either.
other way around bud

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Old
03-19-2012, 03:02 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
Isn't Suter a RFA? Getting him means giving up picks.

What about Weber instead. He will be a UFA at about 8 million a year for at least 10 years. Don't think that would work either.
No, Weber will be RFA, Suter will be UFA...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDuck View Post
In a perfect world:
Trade Lubo and Lydman and sign Suter

In the Ducks world:
Keep the defense the exact same.
This, as long as BM will be our GM we won't see any spectacular, perspective moves...sad, but true...

I expect something like:

Beauch - Fowler
Vis - Sbisa
Lydman - Schultz/Vatanen
Brookbank or Guenin

I don't believe that Suter will sign with us...I would love to add Brad Stuart and trade Lydman somwhere...Brookbank should be easy to replace (guys like Jurcina etc), he can stay, but 1 year, max 2 years, 1 mln annual cap hit...

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Old
03-19-2012, 03:03 PM
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Since ive been saying Lydman needs to go for a while now and since there are still people who can't let him go (Ducks fans not letting go of a player? shocker!) ill ask you a question:

What IF Lydman returns to his form of a season go? What difference does that make?

Fowler/Sbisa/Beauch are staying. We will fill #6 with Brooks/Guenin(who imo has played well everytime ive seen him and has size), so that leaves two spots. #4 and #5 with Vis and Lydman. Take your pick cuz we shouldnt keep both. Everyone talks about us being a budget team but is OK with $3m as a #5. Okay then. The answer is pretty obvious imo.

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Old
03-19-2012, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2faded View Post
Since ive been saying Lydman needs to go for a while now and since there are still people who can't let him go (Ducks fans not letting go of a player? shocker!) ill ask you a question:

What IF Lydman returns to his form of a season go? What difference does that make?

Fowler/Sbisa/Beauch are staying. We will fill #6 with Brooks/Guenin(who imo has played well everytime ive seen him and has size), so that leaves two spots. #4 and #5 with Vis and Lydman. Take your pick cuz we shouldnt keep both. Everyone talks about us being a budget team but is OK with $3m as a #5. Okay then. The answer is pretty obvious imo.
You look at it as 3 million for a #5. That sounds bad.

I look at it as 16.7 million for a six-man defensive unit (assuming Brookbank gets 1 million). The conference finalists last year spent 17.7, 19.6, 20.8, and 22.3 on their defenses.

The defense is cheap enough as is. Yes you could spend less on a #5, but I think it's worth it to spend some of that savings back on the D for insurance in case a young player is inconsistent.

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Old
03-19-2012, 04:55 PM
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Lydman is on the ice to protect leads at the end of games and on the first PK unit. He is getting criminally underrated around her despite his lackluster 5 on 5 and his cap hit. He isn't moved unless it is to make room for signing a better player(won't happen) or if someone overpays(unlikely to happen).

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03-19-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
You look at it as 3 million for a #5. That sounds bad.

I look at it as 16.7 million for a six-man defensive unit (assuming Brookbank gets 1 million). The conference finalists last year spent 17.7, 19.6, 20.8, and 22.3 on their defenses.

The defense is cheap enough as is. Yes you could spend less on a #5, but I think it's worth it to spend some of that savings back on the D for insurance in case a young player is inconsistent.
And we have room to "overspend" on a #5 since we're drastically under-spending on our #2.

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03-19-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGallINYAface View Post
Lydman is on the ice to protect leads at the end of games and on the first PK unit. He is getting criminally underrated around her despite his lackluster 5 on 5 and his cap hit. He isn't moved unless it is to make room for signing a better player(won't happen) or if someone overpays(unlikely to happen).
This. The return for him would be bad or worse even. Just because some fans want him traded doesn't mean that it happens just by snapping fingers.

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Old
03-19-2012, 05:09 PM
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Ryan Suter is the only #1 defenseman on the market this offseason, plenty of teams will be after his services and I'd be shocked to see him sign in Anaheim. Even staying in Nashville makes a lot more sense.

It's kinda hard to tell what the Ducks needs are right now. Will Visnovsky retire? In that case we might have to find someone who can quarter back a power play and also log top 4 minutes. Garrison or Carle could play top 4 minutes and can move the puck, but I wouldn't trust either as a QB on the PP.

Dennis Wideman might be the only UFA who can fill that role, in which case he would also be highly attractive to other teams. If Lubo hangs 'em up, Wideman, although shaky defensively, is my first (realistic) choice because of what he brings to the power play. I don't think a combo of Fowler/Sbisa/Schultz/Vatanen on the first unit would make our PP any better than this year...

Beauchemin - Fowler
Sbisa - Visnovsky/Wideman/Garrison
Schultz/Vatanen - Brookbank
Guenin

We'd still be a #1 defenseman short, unless Lubo comes back and suddenly bounces back into a 60+ point/25 min+ defenseman (not happening) or Fowler breaks out (which I think is another couple of years away).


Last edited by Elvs: 03-19-2012 at 05:18 PM.
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Old
03-19-2012, 05:51 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
Beauchemin - Fowler
Sbisa - Visnovsky/Wideman/Garrison
Schultz/Vatanen - Brookbank
Guenin

We'd still be a #1 defenseman short, unless Lubo comes back and suddenly bounces back into a 60+ point/25 min+ defenseman (not happening) or Fowler breaks out (which I think is another couple of years away).
Is this scenario assuming Lydman is moved or did you just forget him? I'd be much more comfortable with him playing alongside Schultz or Vatanen than Brookbank.

I agree that unless Fowler breaks out next season our D still lacks a #1 guy. Beauchemin is great but he's ideally a #2-3 guy and as good as Fowler is for his age, he would be much better off playing second pairing minutes about now.

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Old
03-19-2012, 05:53 PM
  #21
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If Lydman has a chronic injury he won't pass a physical = untradable.
Not unless we offer him to the Kings.

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Old
03-19-2012, 06:19 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by 5minsforfighting View Post
Its beyond me why BM hasnt already sign Brookbank to extension.
Maybe he has learned from his mistake of resigning easily replaceable players. Brookbank has been great this year but he is at best a #5. He should be resigned but if he wants anything more then a 1 or 2 year then he needs to be let go. We have alot of guys who can take his spot.

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03-19-2012, 06:20 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDuck View Post
In a perfect world:
Trade Lubo and Lydman and sign Suter

In the Ducks world:
Keep the defense the exact same.
Suter will not come here. Dream big but dont hit your head.

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Old
03-19-2012, 07:45 PM
  #24
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I've seen too many goals scored where there was nothing our defenders could do because of the distance between the attacker and defender caused by one of our forwards getting burned. This is half of Fowler's +/- rating easily. Look up every game where Fowler gets a minus and watch the goals that caused them. For the most part Fowler will be nowhere near the shooter because he's shooting from another side of the ice, or off the faceoff, or a point shot, or a shot taken before Fowler can even reach his man after receiving a pass.
This snippit really intrigues me. I don't have the time or motivation to actually go and look up all his goals against that resulted in a -, but I wonder if someone would. Basically compile a list of all his goals against. Maybe make a table? Then put next to it links of the videos to all those goals against.

Because that would be really interesting. Only problem is that the highlights often don't show enough of the play preceding the goal, but it would be cool to judge for ourselves how much blame Fowler should be getting for his team-worst -21. Which BTW is way behind 2nd place Getzlaf (at -11).

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Old
03-19-2012, 07:49 PM
  #25
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Boudreau seemed to think he's been on the ice for 7 EN goals against as well. Although I'm sure Getzlaf, Perry & Selanne can use that excuse too.

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