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Old
04-26-2012, 09:55 PM
  #151
Bennrocks
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
That's not what the award is for, though.
Best means most valuable to his team in my mind, what is being the best if not doing the most to get your team wins?

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04-26-2012, 10:23 PM
  #152
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Best to me means that if they were all on the same team, who the #1 would be.

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04-27-2012, 05:01 AM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennrocks View Post
Best means most valuable to his team in my mind, what is being the best if not doing the most to get your team wins?
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
Best to me means that if they were all on the same team, who the #1 would be.
There's actually a pretty interesting debate to be had on this point of contention.


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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
He's just too weak on defense though. If you give him the award then it truly does become a point competition. If he could just shore up his play in his own zone a little it would be him in a landslide.
The Norris really should be about the best all around defenseman. I think there is a point where if a guy scores some obscene number of points (like 90 or above) then unless he's somehow -20 you have to give him the award. That isn't the case here, although Karlsson's points are quite impressive.

To me it's not that he's too weak on defense (I never get a chance to watch him so I can't comment one way or the other). What bothers me is that he doesn't kill penalties hardly at all. Weber and Chara are both PK mainstays on their respective teams. The argument I heard from Sens fans was that he killed them last year and was quite good at it. For the sake of discussion let's take that at face value and say that Karlsson is a good penalty killer - he still doesn't do it. He isn't expending the energy Weber and Chara are game in, game out trying to stop the other team's PP. I would also imagine that he gets a pretty good breather during Senators penalties and is thus fresh for that important post-penalty first shift.

Assuming Karlsson is a good penalty killer the only real argument to be made for not using him in that part of the game is that you'd prefer to save his energy. It's entirely plausible that the energy he saved is what allowed him to open up such a wide scoring gap between him and the rest of the NHL's best defensemen. If points are the main argument for Karlsson then you have to put his and his competition's numbers in context.

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04-27-2012, 07:59 AM
  #154
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You could then make the argument that Chara and Weber would be 70+ point defensemen if they didn't play on the PK.

He's not that great defensively, and he doesn't belong on the PK. Sens fans just look past that and focus mostly on the offense. Unless they see something I don't, he's average at best in his own zone most of the time.

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04-27-2012, 08:02 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
He's not that great defensively, and he doesn't belong on the PK. Sens fans just look past that and focus mostly on the offense. Unless they see something I don't, he's average at best in his own zone most of the time.
I'll start off by saying that I think Weber will win the Norris, although I would give it to Karlsson, just as Coffey and MacInnis have gone on record saying the same.

As for the bolded, if Karlsson wasn't good offensively and MacLean wasn't merely saving his energy for 5on5, then he would be playing pk. When the team is up or down 1-0 with 2 minutes left in the game and your on the penalty kill, Karlsson is on the ice.

My understanding of the Norris is that it's given to the year's the best defenseman. This year, Karlsson has been just that, whether the coach play's him on the penalty kill or not.

However, reputation holds a lot of value in an award like this, and that's why I think Weber will be awarded for the Norris he missed out on last year.

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04-27-2012, 08:29 PM
  #156
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I feel like Karlsson is being blamed for his offensive ability and getting less credit because his coach is coaching to best use him

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04-27-2012, 08:48 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Bennrocks View Post
I feel like Karlsson is being blamed for his offensive ability and getting less credit because his coach is coaching to best use him
My thoughts exactly. MacLean makes the decision that he doesn't want to play Karlsson over 30 minutes each game, and instead he would rather ~26min. and stratigically play him where his biggest strenghts lie, and that's the pp and 5on5.

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04-27-2012, 10:07 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Sens Stars View Post
My thoughts exactly. MacLean makes the decision that he doesn't want to play Karlsson over 30 minutes each game, and instead he would rather ~26min. and stratigically play him where his biggest strenghts lie, and that's the pp and 5on5.
One of the best posts I've read on HF Boards. Educated fans rock!

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Old
04-27-2012, 10:37 PM
  #159
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Karlsson was quite good defensively in that Rangers series. He's the real deal. Of course he's a liability some times, he pinches every single chance. That's his strength.

Hfboards is so stupid. If you're a 50 point D-man you're amazing. If you're a 70+ point D-man you're a "4th forward" and defensive liability.

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04-29-2012, 07:49 PM
  #160
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Raising this debate from a shallow grave with some posts I made in a poll forum thread about the Norris.

Quote:
...historically the BEST defensemen have done both. Just a kind of random year but in 2005-06 Lidstrom led all defensemen in scoring with 80 points, Zubov was 2nd with 71. Both guys averaged somewhere between 4-5 minutes on the PK per game. Now, to be fair it looks like there was generally more PP time that year compared to this season, but the point is that pretty much all of the top defensemen played the PK. When defending is the primary point of killing a penalty I have a hard time not docking points for a player who doesn't PK.

I know that Sens fans are saying that he can do it and do it well but the question is can he kill penalties AND put up monster numbers? The other question is, how many points are guys like Weber, Chara, and Pietrangelo sacrificing by playing so many more minutes on the PK than Karlsson. It's not as easy as separating things out and saying he can do it. The best defenseman in the league should be out there on the PK more than 30 seconds a game. The reasoning behind that number is insignificant. I can understand why the Sens may prefer he not kill penalties but he may just have to be learn to be ok with that or prove that he can do both.
I feel pretty strongly about this. I'd love to hear another perspective.

Quote:
I really don't think it's fair to dismiss out of hand the fact that he doesn't kill penalties... I know the argument for why he doesn't do it, but ultimately that means that those really hard minutes defending the other team while short-handed are being absorbed elsewhere while EK gets a nice rest on the bench. Again, great for the Sens that they can do that, but to me the league's best defenseman should be a guy who is so good at defending and killing penalties that he forces the hand of his coach. I would make an exception for a guy who scored 90 points or something but barring something wild like that I just think that it's fair to assume Karlsson's competition is sacrificing some points by killing penalties and the exact opposite for EK.
I hear what all of you are saying about Karlsson's coach just doing what's best for the team. I totally get that. But can someone please tell me why the bolded part above is wrong?

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04-29-2012, 08:02 PM
  #161
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It's not. Sens fans are trying to find any excuse to justify him being the best.

He's not. If he truly was more than just above average in his own zone, his coach would be putting him out on the PK significantly more. You don't leave a player like him off something as vital as the PK just because he won't score as much.

That pretty much guarantees he's not the best penalty killer on his team. Probably isn't even one of the top 3 options for the Sens. And if he can't kill penalties, then he really isn't that great defensively.

I don't buy this "best for the team" garble.

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04-29-2012, 08:14 PM
  #162
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I think it comes down to what your definition of best defenseman comes down to.

Coaches sure as hell aren't only asking for defense from defenseman

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04-30-2012, 12:35 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Bennrocks View Post
Coaches sure as hell aren't only asking for defense from defenseman
I wouldn't consider a player who doesn't play the PP a viable option as the league's best defenseman either.

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04-30-2012, 12:53 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I wouldn't consider a player who doesn't play the PP a viable option as the league's best defenseman either.
Karlsson was so far ahead of the rest of the field this year on offense it was a bit absurd. He lead defenseman in the league in points by 25 points, was tied first in goals and was 1st in assists and shots, and was top 10 in TOI, even if he was merely average at playing defense i think this is enough to put him over the top as best defenseman

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04-30-2012, 02:04 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Bennrocks View Post
Karlsson was so far ahead of the rest of the field this year on offense it was a bit absurd. He lead defenseman in the league in points by 25 points, was tied first in goals and was 1st in assists and shots, and was top 10 in TOI, even if he was merely average at playing defense i think this is enough to put him over the top as best defenseman
If he played the tough PK minutes and suffered a 15 point reduction in offense he would have a better case in my mind. As it stands I think there are just too many questions that can't be answered regarding how much his offensive numbers benefitted from not killing penalties very often. Players who don't kill penalties hardly ever win the Norris, and with good reason. My opinion is my own belief but it's also the way that the award is typically voted. I understand where you and others are coming from, I just happen to disagree.

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04-30-2012, 03:21 PM
  #166
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This is gold.
I think JR was in a state of shock at the serving Jones had whipped up.

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04-30-2012, 04:25 PM
  #167
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This is gold.
I think JR was in a state of shock at the serving Jones had whipped up.
He deserved it. I've been disgusted watching him play this series.

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05-01-2012, 06:04 PM
  #168
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He deserved it. I've been disgusted watching him play this series.
And it gets better.

Quote:
Nashville Predators President of Hockey Operations/General Manager David Poile announced today that forwards Alexander Radulov and Andrei Kostitsyn will not play Game Three of the team’s Western Conference Semifinals series vs. the Phoenix Coyotes as result of violating team rules....

http://predators.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=630266

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05-01-2012, 06:09 PM
  #169
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Good. That's the way every team should be run. I don't care how good of an offensive weapon he is.

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05-01-2012, 09:27 PM
  #170
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What did they do?

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Old
05-01-2012, 10:12 PM
  #171
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Think they got smashed after the loss, some reporters caught 'em drunk at around 4 in the morning. In Phoenix.

Hopefully addition by subtraction for the Preds.

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05-01-2012, 10:17 PM
  #172
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What is it with athletes getting wasted in Phoenix?

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Old
05-01-2012, 10:23 PM
  #173
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What is it with athletes getting wasted in Phoenix?
It's such a painfully boring place they have to go get smashed?

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05-01-2012, 10:51 PM
  #174
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What is it with athletes getting wasted in Phoenix?
Presumed anonymity?

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05-02-2012, 04:37 PM
  #175
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Cervenka signs with Flames

Would've been nice to take a risk on him, but not at that price (3.775M).

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