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General Talk '12 — Finland

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Old
02-09-2012, 03:45 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
I see armia being better than those "old timers". But its going to be hard as Armia's style really imo doesnt fit bottom 6 in classic team where theres 2 offensive lines.. but you never know. Im not so sure abot guy like Jussi Jokinen, i put Armia ahead of him and Kapanen and Peltonen and Pulkkinen even.

I found armia has really hard competition finding hes place in top 6.. probably too hard. Then if the bottom lines are defensive lines, then I think he hasnt much of change.. Thought sometimes they put some skill players in bottom lines too. U never know, but one thing is for sure: I would love to see him in NT.

Ma granlund should not be an option imo.
Salomäki could be a "joker" ;p
Armia is surfing too much, Pulkkinen is far more complete as player than Armia is. Also Armia takes way too many offensive zone penalties, and Jalonen doesn't tolerate such thing. These are the main reasons Armia weren't selected and Pulkkinen was.

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02-09-2012, 04:28 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
I see armia being better than those "old timers". But its going to be hard as Armia's style really imo doesnt fit bottom 6 in classic team where theres 2 offensive lines.. but you never know. Im not so sure abot guy like Jussi Jokinen, i put Armia ahead of him and Kapanen and Peltonen and Pulkkinen even.
It's best note that I'm generally trying to emulate Jalonen here, since I've found trying to get into a coach's mindset generally saves you from a disappointment or two. What I personally think of Armia might be a wholly different thing altogether.

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I found armia has really hard competition finding hes place in top 6.. probably too hard.
The truth is that if Armia is to make a major tournament, the top-six, or at the very minimum top-9 IS his place. He's not a player you bring in for an utility role. Which means he'd have to be among the six best wingers available for Jalonen to have a shot at cracking the final team. I'm not saying "no chance" for that, but I am saying "very slim chance".

Also, Armia is in my opinion, bit of a high-maintenance player, bit like Leino. This means he requires a specific kind of line combo to really bloom - technically the traditional defensive-playmaker-sniper type of unit. This is especially true under a coach such as Jalonen who is bit of a system freak. This does put guys like J.Jokinen, Pesonen, plus old farts Kapanen and Peltonen ahead of him in some occasions, because they're far more able to adapt to greater variety of roles. But if there happens to be a slot that requires a lot of pure scoring power and not much more, then sure, I'm inclined to say there aren't many better candidates than Armia ATM.

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Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
Juhamatti Aaltonen is out, --> Teemu Pulkkinen in

This tournament is getting more interesting by the minute!
Pulkkinen is only in for the stadion game. Aaltonen will play those two games over in Sweden as expected. So even if Pulkkinen ends up playing well, I somehow don't expect Jalonen to weigh it much considering it's just one game, under rather unusual circumstances no less.

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02-09-2012, 04:29 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
Juhamatti Aaltonen is out, --> Teemu Pulkkinen in

This tournament is getting more interesting by the minute!
I'm happy for the guy but he could use some rest. Hes been struggling lately even in SM-Liiga.

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02-09-2012, 04:41 AM
  #129
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tbh I'm not sure wether he's officially on the lineup, leijonat.fi said he's the last minute replacement for Aaltonen, so it might be just this one game.

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02-09-2012, 04:49 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
so it might be just this one game.
It is, per YLE: http://yle.fi/urheilu/lajit/jaakiekk...e_3245140.html

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02-09-2012, 07:32 AM
  #131
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I mean I wouldn't like to have Armia in first two lines nor PP, but 3rd line could be a perfect spot for him for now in men's team, but even better is to have him as a reserve forward, that is most likely where he'll be if he's ever chosen for the WC this year. It all depends who the other guys in 3rd line would be and if Armia would fit there, so he'd need some luck to be there, but yea i definately agree that Bergengeim/Korpikoski > Armia easily at he moment, no question about that, but i'd rather have Armia over someone like S.Kapanen like Qnebo mentioned, but i'm sure Jalonen would take S.Kapanen over him, so just my opinion.

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02-09-2012, 09:24 AM
  #132
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could you please tell if someone has a stream. im at work in switzerland and would love to see the game in my office

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02-09-2012, 09:34 AM
  #133
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could you please tell if someone has a stream. im at work in switzerland and would love to see the game in my office

http://livetv.ru/en/eventinfo/105267_russia_finland/

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02-09-2012, 09:46 AM
  #134
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kiitos paljon!

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02-09-2012, 09:53 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
I mean I wouldn't like to have Armia in first two lines nor PP, but 3rd line could be a perfect spot for him for now in men's team, but even better is to have him as a reserve forward, that is most likely where he'll be if he's ever chosen for the WC this year.
This is where I have to disagree. You don't take a player like Armia into the team to play 10-12 minutes a night, trust he's sound defensively and perhaps contributes to the scoring occasionally. Nope, when you take a player like that, you give him a striking offensive role and expect him to find the net, a lot. There are far better guys to fill the role you described, even in Europe.

A role like that for Armia is pretty much a far cry as it is, considering Jalonen has flat out stated that every guy he picks has to contribute to the special teams somehow. And prominent penalty killer he is not.


This doesn't mean I don't appreciate Armia. On the contrary, I appreciate him a lot when he is what people know he is and does what he does best. And if there's a torrent of bad luck considering NHL aids, Jokinen is injured, Leino's team makes the playoffs, Selänne decides that he's really done with the NT this time - stuff like that, then I'll make sure to chew out Jalonen if he doesn't at least give Armia a fair chance to show what he can do.

Of course there is the argument that giving Armia a lesser role is a nice way to easily induct him into the Men's NT. I'm calling it a load of crock, though. They didn't have to take it slow with 19-year-old Mikael Granlund last year, and they don't have to take it slow with 19-year-old Armia. Either there's a natural role for him in that team, or there isn't. Shoehorning never leads to anything good, whether the player is a junior or a veteran.

Besides, even if I mentioned Kapanen and Peltonen as better candidates for utility roles than Armia, there still is a fairly good challenger for them in that U20 group to fill a third-line role like that. His name is Miikka Salomäki.

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02-09-2012, 10:33 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
This is where I have to disagree. You don't take a player like Armia into the team to play 10-12 minutes a night, trust he's sound defensively and perhaps contributes to the scoring occasionally. Nope, when you take a player like that, you give him a striking offensive role and expect him to find the net, a lot. There are far better guys to fill the role you described, even in Europe.

A role like that for Armia is pretty much a far cry as it is, considering Jalonen has flat out stated that every guy he picks has to contribute to the special teams somehow. And prominent penalty killer he is not.


This doesn't mean I don't appreciate Armia. On the contrary, I appreciate him a lot when he is what people know he is and does what he does best. And if there's a torrent of bad luck considering NHL aids, Jokinen is injured, Leino's team makes the playoffs, Selänne decides that he's really done with the NT this time - stuff like that, then I'll make sure to chew out Jalonen if he doesn't at least give Armia a fair chance to show what he can do.

Of course there is the argument that giving Armia a lesser role is a nice way to easily induct him into the Men's NT. I'm calling it a load of crock, though. They didn't have to take it slow with 19-year-old Mikael Granlund last year, and they don't have to take it slow with 19-year-old Armia. Either there's a natural role for him in that team, or there isn't. Shoehorning never leads to anything good, whether the player is a junior or a veteran.

Besides, even if I mentioned Kapanen and Peltonen as better candidates for utility roles than Armia, there still is a fairly good challenger for them in that U20 group to fill a third-line role like that. His name is Miikka Salomäki.
Yea I like Salomäki, but i'm still little bit doubtful that he'll be 100% in couple of months from now, due to that spleen injury. It sounded so brutal and the news reports about it sounded over optimistic. I didn't buy them at least. So I wouldn't take chances with him this year for WC.

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02-09-2012, 11:56 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
This is where I have to disagree. You don't take a player like Armia into the team to play 10-12 minutes a night, trust he's sound defensively and perhaps contributes to the scoring occasionally. Nope, when you take a player like that, you give him a striking offensive role and expect him to find the net, a lot. There are far better guys to fill the role you described, even in Europe.
I hope you're not thinking of Juhamatti Aaltonen

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02-09-2012, 12:31 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Yea I like Salomäki, but i'm still little bit doubtful that he'll be 100% in couple of months from now, due to that spleen injury. It sounded so brutal and the news reports about it sounded over optimistic. I didn't buy them at least. So I wouldn't take chances with him this year for WC.
It remains to be seen whether Salomäki is fit enough to be in contention, but my main aim was to point out that we have enough player material even among the up-and-comers that we don't have to shoehorn a prospect into something he isn't only for the sake of him being there.



Just for fun, I also looked a little more into Jalonen's apparent distaste for young players and newcomers in general. What I found is rather curious.
I consciously excluded goalies from these.


Let's begin with Jalonen's apparent distaste for youngsters.

First, we need to define "young". Of course, you could say that anyone who is over 20 is fit for seniors and therefore "old", but I decided to draw the line at 25. Anyone younger than that could realistically still has a full decade of active years ahead of him. Ten years worth' of chances to represent Finland is a nice round number.

During Jalonen's three-season tenure the following players at 24 or younger have seen their first major tournament action:

2009 WC: Leo Komarov
2010 WC: Juhamatti Aaltonen, Juuso Hietanen, Lauri Korpikoski, Jori Lehterä, Oskar Osala, Sami Vatanen
2011: Mikael Granlund, Jani Lajunen

Nine players, three average per year. Now, I didn't bother to dig deep enough into the archives to see what's the average amount for this criteria during his predecessors' tenures, but I doubt it's much higher.


Second hammy statistic: Players Jalonen has inducted into the NT as staples regardless of age.

For this, I counted every player whom Jalonen has brought for their major tournament debut and then picked again for at least once.

Full members of the club, in alphabetical order:
Juhamatti Aaltonen
J-P Hytönen
Jarkko Immonen
Topi Jaakola
Leo Komarov
Pasi Puistola

Semi-counting, since these debuted in 2008 and Jalonen likely had a hand in picking them:
Hannes Hyvönen
Sami Lepistö
Janne Niskala
Antti Pihlström
Anssi Salmela

Have a fair shot at joining this year:
Mikael Granlund
Lauri Korpikoski
Petteri Nokelainen
Janne Pesonen
Sami Vatanen

A special case might also be made for Jani Lajunen, whom Jalonen would likely pick in a heartbeat if he wasn't likely playing in AHL playoffs.


The first thing worth noting is that there is only one player on these lists who held a legitimate NHL regular status at the time of induction, namely Korpikoski.
The second thing is that there's only one player above who was over 30 years old at the time of induction: Pasi Puistola (and Hyvönen from semi-counters).


While I don't mean to undermine some of the mistakes Jalonen has obviously done as a coach since there have been some. But in total it IS kind of silly to claim that Jalonen hasn't been trying his darnest to broaden our player pool and bring worth a legitimate generation change. By the time he's finished his tenure we can expect there to be around 20 new faces in legitimate contention for major tournament spots in the future. That's a full team's worth of skaters, which is not bad for one man. At least I like to think so.


It's amazing what can result from mild boredom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
I hope you're not thinking of Juhamatti Aaltonen
Tomi Kallio and Kalle Kerman, actually.

EDIT: Okay, seriously. Janne Pesonen, Antti Pihlström, Jesse Joensuu are the names that first pop to mind.


Last edited by FiLe: 02-09-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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02-09-2012, 03:25 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
This doesn't mean I don't appreciate Armia. On the contrary, I appreciate him a lot when he is what people know he is and does what he does best. And if there's a torrent of bad luck considering NHL aids, Jokinen is injured, Leino's team makes the playoffs, Selänne decides that he's really done with the NT this time - stuff like that, then I'll make sure to chew out Jalonen if he doesn't at least give Armia a fair chance to show what he can do.
If this years WHC weren't held in Finland, I'm sure he would be in the discussion. Unfortunately, it may be the same song and dance next year. Many NHL players + all those familiar faces from Europe make a difficult combination for debutants.

When you you look at Joel Armia, he may very well be the best Finnish talent after MG. He has all those tools and intangibles to be a great sniper at least in KHL level: speed, size, reach, great hands, wicked wrist shot, one timer, he's clutch etc. He just needs to mature as a player. And I strongly feel that international games + Jalonen's coaching will accomplish that faster than just FEL games.

It seems that there will be many NHL wingers available this year: Selänne, Hagman, Jokinen, Korpikoski, Leino & maybe Ruutu. If Armia keeps his current form, I would leave Lahti, Aaltonen & co at home. We've seen what theyre capable of at the highest level. I would pick Armia as an extra forward, give him 1-2 games against Kazahstan/France and go from there.

I don't see why not. Pulkkinen & Eronen played against Russia today and the world didn't come to an end.

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02-09-2012, 05:26 PM
  #140
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Kuznetsov is really good, but that was really embarrassing... It seemed like Puistola screwed up really bad there and there was nothing Väänänen could do about it anymore at that point. Well I don't want to see Puistola in the final WC team if we can expect stuff like that from him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYgXgMW8vng

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02-09-2012, 05:39 PM
  #141
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Puistola kind of messed up on the first goal as well. He had the guy in front of the net and when the puck came there, he started slashing away and didn't try to play the puck. I think the 1st thing you do is try to get the puck away from the goal or the other guy gets it, like he did.

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02-09-2012, 05:49 PM
  #142
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One really has to think that Finland national head coachs' job is to be some kind of politician. To lie a bit about giving young players chances when they are interviewed but then not really do that (Jalonen, Aravirta). I understand why they do it. They are really thinking about themselves and want to take minimum risks with their careers. The fear that young players dont deliver is too high for them. Is it because both Aravirta and Jalonen happen to be alike or is it really that all the long time Finnish national head coaches nowadays will turn the same, protective about their careers. Since that position might feel like too valuable to loose.

I'm not saying it's gonna make us win games suddenly that we bring more young guys in but at least it would be more interesting to watch than having the 'Sauna' guys without our biggest stars in Europe playing. I mean Moscow EHT tournament was horrible to watch and this whole Sweden EHT tournament might be the same and both were similar in that we got the 'Sauna team' minus biggest stars in Europe: Granlund, Immonen etc away. So i'm gonna guess it'll be the same, but at the same time I understand that Jalonen is testing these guys for the WC team so it's OK, but it's just so awful to watch these EHTs now... I expect more. It would create a lot more excitement to see more of our young players, but what ever... I'm ok with losing games 0-2 or even 0-4 vs Russia if we have younger team.


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02-09-2012, 05:56 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
I would leave Lahti, Aaltonen & co at home. We've seen what theyre capable of at the highest level. I would pick Armia as an extra forward, give him 1-2 games against Kazahstan/France and go from there.
Yea would be great to have him as an extra forward, but from Jalonen's perspective NO CHANCE. Aaltonen's 'sauna ranking' is way too high, it's like he's sauna sergeant or something and Lahti isn't too far behind. So tough luck for Armia .

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02-09-2012, 06:02 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by ChadS View Post
Puistola kind of messed up on the first goal as well. He had the guy in front of the net and when the puck came there, he started slashing away and didn't try to play the puck. I think the 1st thing you do is try to get the puck away from the goal or the other guy gets it, like he did.
Didn't even notice that. He better stay away of the WC team then.

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02-09-2012, 07:45 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
But in total it IS kind of silly to claim that Jalonen hasn't been trying his darnest to broaden our player pool and bring worth a legitimate generation change.
Trying his darnest is a bit of an overstatement. Usually these newcomers have played in a marginal role. My memory ain't the greatest so take this with a grain of salt:

Quote:
2009 WC: Leo Komarov
2010 WC: Juhamatti Aaltonen, Juuso Hietanen, Lauri Korpikoski, Jori Lehterä, Oskar Osala, Sami Vatanen
2011: Mikael Granlund, Jani Lajunen
Highlighted players weren't even in the lineup when the tournament started. Korpikoski is a NHL regular, so he was automatically in the team. Lehterä played as a bottom six winger. Juhamatti Aaltonen looked like Alex Ovechkin when he was playing for Pelicans, but in the NT he's been a disappointment. Time will tell if Jalonen dares to drop him at some point or will Aaltonen become the next Tomi Kallio.

I give Jalonen full credit on Vatanen, Granlund & Komarov. Those guys have really blossomed since their first NT games.

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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Just for fun, I also looked a little more into Jalonen's apparent distaste for young players and newcomers in general. What I found is rather curious.
Your text wast just fine and dandy. But my main grief lies with Jalonen's EHT selections. This is Jalonen's fourth year as a head coach and IIRC, he's selected only six -90 or later born players to EHT: Hartikainen, Vatanen, Granlund, Lajunen, Eronen & Pulkkinen. Six players in ~15 teams. Our prospect pool isn't that bad that we have to "test" the same faces over and over again. It's no secret that Ossi Louhivaara, Jani Tuppurainen, Janne Lahti, Juhani Jasu & co are complete useless in WHC level, so let's try something else for a change. I'd guess you're all familiar with the definition of insanity?

If our young guns don't get to play in a big role at EHT, how can they eventually do that in WHC level? This Sweden Hockey Games is Evgeni Kuznetsov's second EHT tournament within two years and he's coming along nicely. Tarasenko is only 20 and he's already played in three.

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02-10-2012, 09:37 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
Highlighted players weren't even in the lineup when the tournament started.
I can understand you picking on Osala who perhaps got shafted a little, but not Lajunen.

I know I personally expected Osala to have a 3rd-line power forward role so I was a bit disappointed when Jalonen decided to stamp the wholesome of 4th-line-center trio Santala, Hytönen, Hahl instead for reasons still not clear to me.

It's kind of ironic really that when Osala was finally let out of the gates, he ended up playing for roughly five minutes before he gave an opposing player a tournament-ending injury and got a game misconduct for that. A pure accident, but maybe still not the best way to impress the coach.


Lajunen however was a true surprise pick who was pretty much expected to be an extra man from that start. When finally placed into the lineup, he played solid two-way game all the way through and even ended up scoring two important goals late in the tournament. He got exactly the expected treatment for a player of his role and profile, so it's not fair to say Jalonen shafted him. Granted, he ended up being better than anyone expected so there's likely an expanded role waiting whenever he next becomes available. Wouldn't even be surprised to see him in Sochi.

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Korpikoski is a NHL regular, so he was automatically in the team. Lehterä played as a bottom six winger. Juhamatti Aaltonen looked like Alex Ovechkin when he was playing for Pelicans, but in the NT he's been a disappointment. Time will tell if Jalonen dares to drop him at some point or will Aaltonen become the next Tomi Kallio.
I admitted that Korpikoski is a weak piece of proof due to his NHL status. Lehterä got shafted, mostly due to that strange 4th-line-center fetish Jalonen had at the time.

Then Aaltonen. Let's start by saying that he is NOT a Jalonen sauna buddy. He made his way to both of the WC tournaments he played in by scoring, and scoring a lot at that. While it's clear he's been a huge disappointment in the actual games, I really can't blame Jalonen for picking him twice, because by that time he had to weigh in Aaltonen EHT/KHL scoring and one major tournament which could have been simply a slump. The second one is more difficult to explain away and most definitely worrysome, but calling him the next Tomi Kallio after just two major tournaments is a bit harsh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
I give Jalonen full credit on Vatanen, Granlund & Komarov. Those guys have really blossomed since their first NT games.
Lajunen definitely belongs in this group as well, no question.

However, I'd still argue that when a player is good enough, you don't pick him into a team for "development", but to play in a role that responds to his skills. Granlund didn't need a lengthy EHT induction to be a star in the NT, and neither did Komarov, Vatanen nor Lajunen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
Your text wast just fine and dandy. But my main grief lies with Jalonen's EHT selections. This is Jalonen's fourth year as a head coach and IIRC, he's selected only six -90 or later born players to EHT: Hartikainen, Vatanen, Granlund, Lajunen, Eronen & Pulkkinen. Six players in ~15 teams. Our prospect pool isn't that bad that we have to "test" the same faces over and over again. It's no secret that Ossi Louhivaara, Jani Tuppurainen, Janne Lahti, Juhani Jasu & co are complete useless in WHC level, so let's try something else for a change. I'd guess you're all familiar with the definition of insanity?
Actually I'm completely willing to admit that text is not without its faults, and I even tried to acknowledge some of 'em myself. But really, Jalonen should have picked more 90-born and younger? Who, exactly, outside those six could have been deemed good enough to enter EHT level? Especially if your only means of inducting 'em due to the U20 preparation schedule is the last tournament just before the games? That pretty much rules out anyone in 08-09 season.

2010 he tried Hartikainen, Granlund and Vatanen when he could, meaning the last EHT. Pulkkinen was injured back then, would probably been in as well otherwise. Last year, he picked Lajunen to Sweden's EHT and gave Joonas Donskoi and Teemu Pulkkinen a shot in the pre-WHC exhibition games - and honestly, Pulkkinen did get shafted due to scoring 3+2 in two games vs. Germany but not making it to the Czech EHT.

The 90- and 91-borns have been open season this year, but who is good enough? Hmm... Julius Junttila, perhaps. Toni Rajala? Mmmmaybe. Jyrki Jokipakka? Hardly.

Maybe a prominent name is escaping me, but Jalonen has pretty much given a shot to 90% of the ~20-year-old players who can contribute somehow to the EHT level. We do have some talent in the pipeline but we really have to wait 'til the U20 duties are beyond them. This is an argument we should get back to within two years or so when '92s and '93s are freely available and '94s ready for the first induction. It's possible we have a different coach by then, but Jalonen has pretty much done what he can concerning this particular age group. There's been some favoritism towards elder players but not even close to those amounts some people imply.


Besides, last time I checked, Jalonen was the adult lions' coach, not U20 coach. This means he's due some credit for every new player he tries who can possibly contribute for more than just one or two offshoot years. Why I think it's lot more fair to judge him by not every under-20 but under-25-year-old player he gives a shot. And for those he has, quite a bit. Besides, our most talented U20 players, those who are genuinely useful at WHC as well DO NOT even need the EHT experience to be ready for bigger rinks. Granlund, Vatanen and Lajunen are all cases for that point, not against it.

Also, while I can definitely agree with many of your "useless for WHC level" examples, it does require some retrospection to make that observation. In order to tell it beforehand, you need to be rather unusual kind of visionary.

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If our young guns don't get to play in a big role at EHT, how can they eventually do that in WHC level? This Sweden Hockey Games is Evgeni Kuznetsov's second EHT tournament within two years and he's coming along nicely. Tarasenko is only 20 and he's already played in three.
Oh, come on. I know we've come a long way since the slump years, but are you seriously comparing the talent we have available to Kuznetzov and Tarasenko? For starters, we have ONE guy on their level, The Stamp. And he's already a world champion in men and has played in two EHTs on top of that. And would likely have even more under his belt from last spring if not first being out due to concussion and then HIFK going all the way in the playoffs.

Kuznetzov and Tarasenko have made it to multiple EHTs by being good enough, not the other way around. And same definitely applies to our guys as well. If they're good enough for WHC and possibly even higher, they don't need a single silly EHT to get there. And while we have a coach who could refrain a bit from recycling some names, he's certainly not blind to that raw talent.


Last edited by FiLe: 02-10-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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02-10-2012, 09:52 AM
  #147
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Yep, reason why Pulkkinen for example does't play in EHT tournaments regularly is because he's not good enough. He was decent yesterday but by no means a standout. Armia could be a stand out next year if he keeps on improving

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02-10-2012, 10:54 AM
  #148
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Armia would be nice as the extra forward, he is a one shift/one game wonder who can decide a game here or there with his awesome skill. Of course this won't happen but I'd give this young gun a try, atleast in the roster. He might possibly be the future finnish scorer we need when Selanne retires and could be this year's Granlund.

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02-10-2012, 01:54 PM
  #149
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Just a quick remarks, because I'm in a hurry. Good discussion btw.

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Lajunen however was a true surprise pick who was pretty much expected to be an extra man from that start. When finally placed into the lineup, he played solid two-way game all the way through and even ended up scoring two important goals late in the tournament. He got exactly the expected treatment for a player of his role and profile, so it's not fair to say Jalonen shafted him.
I'm not making the argument that this guy got shafted and that guy got shafted. Since you pointed out that Jalonen has selected young players to WHC, I pointed out that few of them started as extra forwards/defensemen. That's all.

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The second one is more difficult to explain away and most definitely worrysome, but calling him the next Tomi Kallio after just two major tournaments is a bit harsh.
It is and that's why I didn't say that. I said Aaltonen is heading to Kallio-esque career in the NT. He has time to turn it around, but his current form is quite alarming.

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Lajunen definitely belongs in this group as well, no question.
It's questionable. He played one EHT tournament before WHC and left Europe after that. Those other guys have been groomed more at EHT level.

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However, I'd still argue that when a player is good enough, you don't pick him into a team for "development", but to play in a role that responds to his skills.
I agree to a certain extent. However, I'd still argue that EHT games should play a role in player development. Just like NHL organisations give their prospects few games in the Show every now and then. This gives players some perspective of their skills and shows how much they have to improve to compete at higher level. Just like MG said in 2010: En ollut viikonlopun EHT:lla riittävän hyvä. Sillä selvä. Töitä on paljon edessä, se oli maajoukkuepelien suurin opetus”, nuorukainen tiivistää.

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The 90- and 91-borns have been open season this year, but who is good enough? Hmm... Julius Junttila, perhaps. Toni Rajala? Mmmmaybe. Jyrki Jokipakka? Hardly.
Joonas Rask and Iiro Pakarinen could contribute right away in a bottom6 role. Helenius & Raanta in goal. Junttila/Rajala could have played in Moscow. They are little older but Vili Sopanen & Roope Talaja have been impressive etc.

I find it amusing actually that there's this same old "Where are the goalscorers" speculation all over the media, again. No wonder, since we seem to recycle the same players over and over again.

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Oh, come on. I know we've come a long way since the slump years, but are you seriously comparing the talent we have available to Kuznetzov and Tarasenko? For starters, we have ONE guy on their level, The Stamp.
Yes, currently only one. But Kuznetsov played his first EHT last year and Tarasenko two years ago. They weren't as good as then as they are now. Armia has similar upside and talent level so I'm expecting him to play at least some EHT games before he turns 20. This should be without question since Russia has a way larger talent pool to choose players.

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Yep, reason why Pulkkinen for example does't play in EHT tournaments regularly is because he's not good enough. He was decent yesterday but by no means a standout. Armia could be a stand out next year if he keeps on improving
I think here's part of the problem. Pulkkinen has to be tremendous every game, and he still doesn't get second chance. Tuppurainen plays below average and he's selected every year at least once.


Last edited by Needles: 02-10-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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02-10-2012, 04:10 PM
  #150
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Just a quick remarks, because I'm in a hurry. Good discussion btw.
It is, it is. Hope you're enjoying it as much as I am.


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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
I'm not making the argument that this guy got shafted and that guy got shafted. Since you pointed out that Jalonen has selected young players to WHC, I pointed out that few of them started as extra forwards/defensemen. That's all.
What's the point of that observation, if they still got to play? It's not like those who started as extras were ever destined for anything greater than to be utility players.


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It is and that's why I didn't say that. I said Aaltonen is heading to Kallio-esque career in the NT. He has time to turn it around, but his current form is quite alarming.
No argument there. Still, I guess it is a bit hard to snub a player who produces in his club team and EHT solely for the reason "he'll suck again in the big games". At least from a coach's POV. And this is for both Kallio and Aaltonen. As a fan however, I can certainly agree that it's frustrating.


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It's questionable. He played one EHT tournament before WHC and left Europe after that. Those other guys have been groomed more at EHT level.
It's not. All those guys had the same amount of EHT experience (one tour) before entering WHC and performing there in a satisfactory manner. So for the best of 'em at least EHT has very little or next to nothing effect.


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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
I agree to a certain extent. However, I'd still argue that EHT games should play a role in player development. Just like NHL organisations give their prospects few games in the Show every now and then. This gives players some perspective of their skills and shows how much they have to improve to compete at higher level. Just like MG said in 2010: En ollut viikonlopun EHT:lla riittävän hyvä. Sillä selvä. Töitä on paljon edessä, se oli maajoukkuepelien suurin opetus”, nuorukainen tiivistää.
It is a good argument, but a rather bad example. I somewhat doubt the Granlund we see today would be far apart from the Granlund who has not had that particular tour under his belt.


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Joonas Rask and Iiro Pakarinen could contribute right away in a bottom6 role. Helenius & Raanta in goal. Junttila/Rajala could have played in Moscow. They are little older but Vili Sopanen & Roope Talaja have been impressive etc.

I find it amusing actually that there's this same old "Where are the goalscorers" speculation all over the media, again. No wonder, since we seem to recycle the same players over and over again.
Good calls all around, though I have to point out something. The key here is word "bottom-six". We have a wide and deep pool of prospective bottom-sixers starting from the young (Komarov, Lajunen, Joensuu etc) to the age-old (S.Kapanen, J.Ruutu, Peltonen) and from every age in-between. Along with decent goalies, those are not something we're running short of any time soon. So I don't think I can chew Jalonen out too hard for not having a wider selection for those roles as a priority.

And what comes to the eternal problem of not having goalscorers, I don't think inducting even more bottom-sixers is exactly the most effective remedy for that, no matter how young.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
Yes, currently only one. But Kuznetsov played his first EHT last year and Tarasenko two years ago. They weren't as good as then as they are now. Armia has similar upside and talent level so I'm expecting him to play at least some EHT games before he turns 20. This should be without question since Russia has a way larger talent pool to choose players.
Somehow I doubt playing in EHT explains this away. I'd rather seek the main reason from another three-letter acronym, namely KHL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
I think here's part of the problem. Pulkkinen has to be tremendous every game, and he still doesn't get second chance. Tuppurainen plays below average and he's selected every year at least once.
There are different requirements for a player in top-six and bottom-six role. For the latter, sometimes it is enough that you're sound defensively and stay up with the speed. For someone in top-six however, it is completely justified to demand more. They're the ones who need to be on top of their game and find the net if we want to see our team win constantly. Being decent simply won't cut it.

We can certainly see that Tuppurainen doesn't bring much to the ice but there has to be some qualities in him why Jalonen likes him so maybe they're off the ice, who knows. Yeah, I know, the on-ice thing should be the top priority, but I don't think a single Tuppurainen will cost anyone a game if the rest of the team is up to speed. One of those Pulkkinens however can, if he's having an off-day instead of one where he brings his A game.

Like Armia, I like Pulkkinen a lot and we can all see that on the top of his current range is a world-class player. What he does need is more constancy if he's really to be a player of some worth on this level.

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