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General Talk '12 — Finland

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Old
02-14-2012, 07:59 AM
  #176
Mestaruus
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Pitkänen - Lydman
Dunno about Pitkänen. Concussion+his history of being reluctant to aid the national team sometimes. However he does like to go for special cases like the olympics and home WC might be a special case also for him. We can only guess what he thinks about home WC.

About Lydman. I don't see him as another Pitkänen. I also think he's had valid reasons when he wasnt there most of the time.

If we could choose from all goalies regardless of how their teams are doing atm. I'd choose this duo over anyone #1 Rinne, #2 Rask. Rask because he is used to that role certainly would help and being as good as he is.

On paper I wouldn't rank Rask as #2 best goalie in Finland though. I'd probably take Niemi as my second and then comes the Bäckström/Kipper/Lehtonen trio which are about even imo, but the age factor would make Lehtonen a good choise out of these 3. Like File said Vehanen as #2 is also an option, him being a gold medal winner/starting goalie in that. Rinne=beast, so no need to explain why he's #1, then we got the proven winners Vehanen (WC), Niemi (Stanley Cup).

Dunno why so many count out Niemi due to stats or something. He's having a good season and he is a WINNER, he has experience of winning the biggest thing, even if his team helped with that (don't wanna go into that discussion), who knows, but simple fact is that he's a winner. He'll step up when it's most needed and that's what we need. Not some guy that has super tourney during almost whole WC and cracks under pressure in the final. We have enough silver and bronze medals I think.

Niko Kapanen is ok option imo. I forgot about him, dunno what kind of season he's had though. Not good, not bad season I think? He's not been on the news headlines much at least.


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02-14-2012, 03:58 PM
  #177
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Considering he's one of Jalonen's favorite players and has 35 points this season in KHL, I'd Niko Kapanen is pretty much a lock to make the team.

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02-14-2012, 04:43 PM
  #178
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Somehow I still find it hard to comprehend that Niko Kapanen is already 33 and will turn 34 this year. It just feels like yesterday when he made his NT debut, and I'm over ten years younger than him. He's on his way towards his best season (point-wise) in the KHL, and has usually been solid with the NT. And yeah, Jalonen seems to like him too. I wasn't totally happy with his performance last year, but in the end, we did win gold.

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02-14-2012, 06:37 PM
  #179
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Ruutu got injured and apparently wants to re-sign. So feel free to include him into your fantasy rosters.

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02-15-2012, 07:01 PM
  #180
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Good to hear N. Kapanen is having a great season. He's a 100% pick then in my roster.

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02-16-2012, 01:48 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haite View Post
Somehow I still find it hard to comprehend that Niko Kapanen is already 33 and will turn 34 this year. It just feels like yesterday when he made his NT debut, and I'm over ten years younger than him. He's on his way towards his best season (point-wise) in the KHL, and has usually been solid with the NT. And yeah, Jalonen seems to like him too. I wasn't totally happy with his performance last year, but in the end, we did win gold.
Definitely want to have him on Finland's team. I wonder if Petrell would be up for this tournament since Jalonen tried to get him last year but Petrell was injured at the time.

My fantasy bottom 6:

Korpikoski-Kapanen-Bergenheim
Komarov-Nokelainen-Petrell

I'm hoping for Coyotes to drop since I want Korpikoski on the team. Although he could play top 6 if there's no one better.

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02-16-2012, 04:30 AM
  #182
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Definitely want to have him on Finland's team. I wonder if Petrell would be up for this tournament since Jalonen tried to get him last year but Petrell was injured at the time.
If Petrell is available, I'm fairly certain Jalonen will pick him in a heartbeat. But for the umpteenth time in this thread alone, Edmonton's farm team Oklahoma City is soaring on the top spot in the AHL, so him being available for WHC looks like a very far cry. Same goes naturally with Härski Hartikainen.


Also, call me perverse but I'm slowly starting to hope the Ducks succeed in their climb. There's nothing there this team would absolutely require. Hagman and Saku have skillsets that are pretty much replaceable at this moment, and considering the way Väänänen, Kukkonen, Jaakola and co. play under Jalonen's system even Lydman isn't a necessity. Teemu is well... Teemu, but this current generation has shown it can stand on its legs even without him.

Jokinen - Koivu - Ruutu
Pesonen - Immonen - Granlund
Leino - Kapanen - Aaltonen
Komarov - Nokelainen - Joensuu

would be the lineup in that case. If Korpikoski is available then he should take Aaltonen's place. If Ruutu opts out due to contract issues, then bump Leino up and find him a replacement such as Pihlström or maybe even some youngster like Salomäki, Pulkkinen or Armia.

Though in reality it would likely be someone like Peltonen or S.Kapanen... *sigh*.

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02-16-2012, 06:59 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Jokinen - Koivu - Ruutu
Pesonen - Immonen - Granlund
Leino - Kapanen - Aaltonen
Komarov - Nokelainen - Joensuu
Looks ok, but Leino and J.Jokinen needs to swap places!!! Aaltonen & Leino are too similar players to have on same line and both of them want to have the puck.

Also we NEED Teemu! So Anaheim please drop out .

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02-16-2012, 07:29 AM
  #184
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Niko Kapanen is an extremely smart player. Definately a guy I want to see there. He also almost always clicks with a new player, raising that player's game.

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02-16-2012, 09:19 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Looks ok, but Leino and J.Jokinen needs to swap places!!! Aaltonen & Leino are too similar players to have on same line and both of them want to have the puck.
Yeah, I know that 3rd line is a risky combination since Aaltonen and Leino are both very high maintenance players, but if this season is to indicate anything, not so much as in the past. Aaltonen has been a more straightforward player over all season in both EHT and KHL, and NHL has demanded similar shift from Leino. It's also the reason why Kapanen is there, if there's one balancing act who can make the line click, it's him. He's been in a similar role all season ever since becoming Kazan's #1 center, dishing the puck out to two rather demanding players as well, namely Zaripov and Morozov.

I won't say it's a line that WILL work like that, but there's a decent chance for it. Besides, we already know that Jokinen is probably the best guy out there to complement that Koivu - Ruutu combo, and you don't break up PIG for obvious reasons. So if we're to look at that team as a whole, it's still loads better to have two out of three offensive lines you know will pretty much work from the beginning rather than just one.

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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Also we NEED Teemu! So Anaheim please drop out .
While I won't shun Selänne if he becomes available, this is once again quite the overstatement. Sure, it'd be nice to have him, but we don't "need" him for anything. In fact what we need is quite the opposite, to stop making such a big fuss over him and just treat him as a nice addition if he decides to show up.

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02-16-2012, 11:14 AM
  #186
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Surprisingly Jarkko Ruutu's name hasn't been mentioned yet. In his current form he could very well be selected to play in the 4th line. The NHL standings are looking pretty promising at the moment:

Jussi Jokinen - Mikko Koivu - Tuomo Ruutu
Niklas Hagman - Saku Koivu - Teemu Selänne
Lauri Korpikoski - Jarkko Immonen - Mikael Granlund
Leo Komarov - Niko Kapanen - Jarkko Ruutu

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02-16-2012, 11:40 AM
  #187
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Surprisingly Jarkko Ruutu's name hasn't been mentioned yet. In his current form he could very well be selected to play in the 4th line.
Somehow I doubt Ruutu being very high on Jalonen's list of contenders. If he was, they'd granted him at least one EHT appearance this season.

Another case in point is Jalonen already having a pet pest in Komarov and it's very unlikely Ruutu can upstage him. Sure, there're two wingers in the 4th line as well, but Ruutu's not the only candidate for that. Pihlström and Joensuu for example both have comparable club team stats compared to Ruutu and have been given good showings on EHT.

I've got nothing against Ruutu and I certainly don't think he's merely a dirty rat and penalty magnet like some, but currently the only thing running for him against those other challengers is his experience. And that alone won't do, otherwise we wouldn't be groaning when someone mentions names such as Peltonen and S.Kapanen (who might also be contesting for the very role, btw).

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02-16-2012, 11:54 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Somehow I doubt Ruutu being very high on Jalonen's list of contenders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland...lympics_roster

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If he was, they'd granted him at least one EHT appearance this season.
He started slowly this year, but has been great in the last month or so. Wouldn't be surprised if he played in the last EHT tournament.

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Sure, there're two wingers in the 4th line as well, but Ruutu's not the only candidate for that. Pihlström and Joensuu for example both have comparable club team stats compared to Ruutu and have been given good showings on EHT.
I didn't say that he was a lock. Joensuu, Pihlström & Peltonen will be in the mix also.

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02-16-2012, 12:18 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
Hardy har har. I'm going to presume this wasn't a wholly serious argument, considering you must be aware that two years ago Ruutu was pretty much the best and only candidate we had for that role. Not that he looks like he's out of shape now, but is definitely being contested.

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He started slowly this year, but has been great in the last month or so. Wouldn't be surprised if he played in the last EHT tournament.
It's possible. But that'd mean Ruutu likely has to outplay those other contestants, especially the younger ones. Jalonen doesn't have the habit of shafting guys who have been with him all season unless the new candidate seriously makes a case for himself.


All in all, I'd say the main reason why we haven't heard much from Ruutu in this context is that the Lions have a new staple bonehead now. If Komarov gets injured, then Ruutu might re-enter the table as a serious option. Otherwise I'd be willing to wager his time in the NT is over.

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02-17-2012, 06:41 PM
  #190
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He's been in a similar role all season ever since becoming Kazan's #1 center, dishing the puck out to two rather demanding players as well, namely Zaripov and Morozov.
Yeah I agree with that. It's worth trying and it could work who knows. Good point about his line mates also in Kazan. I didn't think about that, but IMO the line is too much built around Kapanen this way. Leino-N.Kapanen-work horse/Korpikoski/Hagman/Bergenheim/T.Ruutu (but I guess T.Ruutu belongs in one of top-2 lines). I'd like something like this.

I really hate the idea of having J.Jokinen in line #1. I don't want to give J.Jokinen PP time also. It's line #3 he's best at and he'll shine there and perform over expectations. Okay I must admit Jussi's stats are better than I thought for this season when I just now looked at them. 53 games played, 29 points (7 goals). I would like to have him in position where nothing is expected of him, he failed last time when high expectations were put on him, one year after "no selection for olympics incident" in the WC.

Speaking of Jokinen. If only we could get O.Jokinen. We could do Selanne-O.Jokinen-T.Ruutu or something like that. Too bad about his retirement. Really saddens me . Olli Jokinen doesn't realize how much he is respected in Finland and one coach shouldn't be an obstacle in playing for the national team.


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02-18-2012, 05:13 AM
  #191
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Yeah I agree with that. It's worth trying and it could work who knows. Good point about his line mates also in Kazan. I didn't think about that, but IMO the line is too much built around Kapanen this way. Leino-N.Kapanen-work horse/Korpikoski/Hagman/Bergenheim/T.Ruutu (but I guess T.Ruutu belongs in one of top-2 lines). I'd like something like this.
That'd be my preference as well. Like I said, if Korpikoski is available he should take that slot. Same goes for the likes of Hagman, Bergenheim, Hartikainen and whoever.

But yet again, it has to do with perspection of reality vs. preference. That team was based on assumption none of those guys are available, meaning an Euro winger is required. And while Aaltonen is not profilically the best guy for that position, he has put up a showing that makes him hard to pass.

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I really hate the idea of having J.Jokinen in line #1. I don't want to give J.Jokinen PP time also. It's line #3 he's best at and he'll shine there and perform over expectations. Okay I must admit Jussi's stats are better than I thought for this season when I just now looked at them. 53 games played, 29 points (7 goals). I would like to have him in position where nothing is expected of him, he failed last time when high expectations were put on him, one year after "no selection for olympics incident" in the WC.
You're right, J.Jokinen is far from the ideal top dog you wish to have your team riding on. But was Mika Pyörälä last year?

If you look at his linemates a bit, then think a little, you'll notice that unlike 2010, Jokinen is NOT the go-to-guy there. Instead, he's the balancing act for Koivu-Ruutu -duo, just like Pyörälä was last year. The player who's not there to produce, but to give his conscientious linemates the release they need to participate in the offense. That was the problem with Aaltonen last year. He was slated to be the go-to-guy which meant both Koivu and Ruutu had less room to participate in the offense.

Jokinen instead is sound defensively, and while still not a sniper does have an offensive upside at least when compared to Pyörälä and also has past chemistry with Koivu and Ruutu. It's pretty much a line where ANY of those guys can take that opportunity, join the rush or whatever and still know there's at least one guy behind 'em in a covering position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Speaking of Jokinen. If only we could get O.Jokinen. We could do Selanne-O.Jokinen-T.Ruutu or something like that. Too bad about his retirement. Really saddens me . Olli Jokinen doesn't realize how much he is respected in Finland and one coach shouldn't be an obstacle in playing for the national team.
Ugh. They tried Teemu + OJ in 2008. Total bust. As used to be OJ and Iginla in Calgary, though that's gotten better with time. So maybe... who knows.

But yeah, I have immense respect with all Jokinen has done over his time in the Lions. Still, Jokinen was a rather high-maintenance player who required a specific role and specific linemates to shine. That's why they paired him with Peltonen so often, because Ville is a very smart player who knew how to cater to his needs - well, pretty much any players' needs. While he might be getting old and slow now, that's one quality I probably admire the most in him. He's never been a bust no matter with whom he played.

But whoops. This was supposed to be about OJ, who could still have something to give. While Jalonen might have p'od him, he's a very lucky coach to also have found a pretty decent replacement for him. I'm not comparing them head-on naturally, but Immonen nowadays pretty much does the same things Jokinen used to do, while being a bit more low-maintenance.

So in the end, I guess OJ is worth viewing in same manner as Selänne. Nice to have, brings an upside, but nothing that's required for the ultimate Team Finland experience.

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02-18-2012, 10:42 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Jokinen instead is sound defensively, and while still not a sniper does have an offensive upside at least when compared to Pyörälä and also has past chemistry with Koivu and Ruutu. It's pretty much a line where ANY of those guys can take that opportunity, join the rush or whatever and still know there's at least one guy behind 'em in a covering position.
I'll accept it, with one condition , J.Jokinen would be like Bobby Ryan is in Anaheim, where Selanne takes his spot usually on the PPs in the Getzlaf-Perry line (doesn't have to be Selanne in the Finnish NT, was just an example about Anaheim). 5on5 it's J.Jokinen's line to play with whoever we get into the #1 line and during PP someoene will replace him.

I think O.Jokinen is a completely different guy now. He's learned to be wellrounded in Calgary, but yes we do have a lot of centers, so he's not must have. He's accomplished so much though, 1998 U-20 WJC championship and that bronze in olympics was all him. Unbeleviable his NHL career has been so unsuccesful, considering how succesful he's been in everything else. I'd say bad luck with teams he's been in and then sometimes too much has been expected of him and when his teams didn't do well he was always made a scapegoat due to his high salary just like Leino is now.

Yes V.Peltonen is/has been underrated in what you said, one of the better balancing players Finland has had. Eventhough he hasn't always been a point machine in the NT, he still brings all other things with him into the team. I'm not surprised at all if he ends up in Jalonen's WC team. He'll be picked for the last EHT for sure. I'm secretly hoping he'll have a small injury so he wont be picked though.


Last edited by Mestaruus: 02-18-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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02-18-2012, 11:53 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
I'll accept it, with one condition , J.Jokinen would be like Bobby Ryan is in Anaheim, where Selanne takes his spot usually on the PPs in the Getzlaf-Perry line (doesn't have to be Selanne in the Finnish NT, was just an example about Anaheim). 5on5 it's J.Jokinen's line to play with whoever we get into the #1 line and during PP someoene will replace him.
Heh, since I never went into the special teams there's really no need to "negotiate". Besides, it's not like Pyörälä joined Koivu-Ruutu on PP last year.

Though if we are to consider those, let's say Jokinen's participation partially depends on the other guys on the team and who best complements Koivu-Ruutu on PP. The ultimate pick out of that lineup I made up would be Immonen, but that'd mean breaking up him and The G. Other suitables based on profile alone would be Aaltonen and Leino. Out of those two I'd probably try Leino first, since that combo certainly has a huge upside if it works. But if it doesn't, Jokinen still makes a decent backup plan, simply due to that chemistry and not being COMPLETELY alien to PP either.

And I don't wish to put Jokinen into 1st because it's the 1st line, I placed him there because I placed Koivu and Ruutu there. So it's not really Jokinen's line with "whoever".


Re: OJ. While I agree with your assessment on him becoming a more complementary player lately, I still wouldn't blow his accomplishments out of proportion. The guy's had his shining moments but also a bunch of lows where he hasn't really been the guy he should have been. He's always been a team player though, I give him that. So those not-so-shining moments have mostly been due to inability to adapt into certain playstyle rather than issues with attitude than anything like that. Which is probably why he eventually decided to skip the NT, considering he's always been one of the more lenient guys but still has been given lot less of those free passes than, say, Saku for whom he always seemed to play the second fiddle.


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02-18-2012, 02:39 PM
  #194
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Jussi Jokinen is a great complimentary player. He's very solid in all situations. He's not magnificent in any specific area, but shines with talented players. Pair him with T.Ruutu & M.Koivu or S.Koivu & Selänne and he should be golden. Jokinen-Koivu-Ruutu sounds great but theres no guarenteed chemistry there. Ruutu has played a lot with Koivu & Jokinen, but Jokinen & Koivu are yet pretty much untested as a pair. That unit might have played together at junior level but that was tens years ago.

Olli Jokinen carried Finland in pretty big tournaments, especially in clutch situations: World Cup, Torino & Vancouver. In Torino, when Lehtinen-Koivu-Selänne started to choke, Peltonen-Jokinen-Hagman took over. Jarkko Immonen is nowhere close Jokinen as a player. There's a reason why he's played only 20 games in NHL. And there's a reason why Jokinen has played 13 years in a top6 role in NHL. Immonen has a long way to prove that he can do similar things at NT.

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02-18-2012, 03:47 PM
  #195
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Ruutu has played a lot with Koivu & Jokinen, but Jokinen & Koivu are yet pretty much untested as a pair. That unit might have played together at junior level but that was tens years ago.
Little less time than juniors actually. T.Ruutu-M.Koivu-J.Jokinen was Finland's best unit at 2008 WHC before Saku joined, at which state they decided to break it up to find OJ a slot in top-six and bumped Jussi down.

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In Torino, when Lehtinen-Koivu-Selänne started to choke, Peltonen-Jokinen-Hagman took over.
That line was Peltonen-O.Jokinen-J.Jokinen. Hagman played in the 3rd with Kapanen & Hentunen. But it was a solid line with good chemistry between all parts regardless. Both of 'em.

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Immonen has a long way to prove that he can do similar things at NT.
He has long ways to go to reach OJ's track record, that's for certain. But at the moment he appears to be more than adequate replacement.


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02-18-2012, 04:01 PM
  #196
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What worries me is that Immonen's is having a relatively weak season in KHL.

Oh and tell me more about Olli Jokinen carrying the team in Vancouver? Sure OJ stepped up in the bronze medal game but he spent most of that tournament in the fourth line and didn't do anything vs. Czechs or USA.

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02-18-2012, 04:06 PM
  #197
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What worries me is that Immonen's is having a relatively weak season in KHL.
He was money on EHT though. And Jalonen adores a good EHT display.

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Oh and tell me more about Olli Jokinen carrying the team in Vancouver? Sure OJ stepped up in the bronze medal game but he spent most of that tournament in the fourth line and didn't do anything vs. Czechs or USA.
For Jokinen's defense, same lackluster performance was plaguing the whole team. Only player who looked fully interested & motivated throughout all tournament was Hagman.

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02-18-2012, 05:19 PM
  #198
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Sure OJ stepped up in the bronze medal game but he spent most of that tournament in the fourth line and didn't do anything vs. Czechs or USA.
The whole team sucked against Czechs and especially USA. And there was a lot happening behind the scenes between the team and the coaches. And I would consider the third period in a bronze medal game as a clutch situation.

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02-18-2012, 05:24 PM
  #199
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T.Ruutu-M.Koivu-J.Jokinen was Finland's best unit at 2008 WHC before Saku joined, at which state they decided to break it up to find OJ a slot in top-six and bumped Jussi down.
Ok. Totally have forgotted this.

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02-18-2012, 05:50 PM
  #200
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We've seen what this kid can do at U20 level without any system. It may be borderline unconstitutional if he doesn't get the opportunity to show his talents at EHT level this year. Espescially when Teemu & co might make it to the playoffs.


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