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Old
04-04-2012, 12:26 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Of your list only Gardiner has developed. None of the others have shown anything.
...well not at the NHL level, but that's why they're called prospects. Once they show something at the NHL level, they're no longer prospects.

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04-04-2012, 12:31 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DarwinWasAdopted View Post
...well not at the NHL level, but that's why they're called prospects. Once they show something at the NHL level, they're no longer prospects.
You spelled "if" incorrectly.

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Old
04-04-2012, 12:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Kessel was developed by the Bruins and was an NHL player before arriving here.

Gardiner is the only one.

Reimer had a great run last year but his weaknesses were exposed and even his last 10 games last year showed this. He is not a number 1 goalie and may not even be a reasonable back up solution moving forward.

Kadri has been mishandled period. You do not yo-yo your prospects.
Kessel was developed by the Bruins, but has continued to develop with the Leafs. He has seen close to a 20 point increase in production and has exceeded his career high's twice with the Leafs.

Reimer's injury has a lot to do with it, as much as people want to deny the fact. Not only the injury itself, but missing a whole month and a half of practice has a very underrated impact on any professional athlete. Look at Miller, an all-star calibre goalie regarded as a top 10 in the league, he suffered a similar injury and took a few months to regain form. It is not fair to write of a 24 year old, inexperienced goalie who has suffered a major injury in his sophomore season.

Kadri is still out of the question. Wait until he is given a fair chance to judge him.

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04-04-2012, 12:49 PM
  #54
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It's only allowable to talk about prospects if you state that there is a good chance that they won't turn into anything.

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04-04-2012, 12:54 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Kessel was developed by the Bruins, but has continued to develop with the Leafs. He has seen close to a 20 point increase in production and has exceeded his career high's twice with the Leafs.

Reimer's injury has a lot to do with it, as much as people want to deny the fact. Not only the injury itself, but missing a whole month and a half of practice has a very underrated impact on any professional athlete. Look at Miller, an all-star calibre goalie regarded as a top 10 in the league, he suffered a similar injury and took a few months to regain form. It is not fair to write of a 24 year old, inexperienced goalie who has suffered a major injury in his sophomore season.

Kadri is still out of the question. Wait until he is given a fair chance to judge him.
I am not judging the Prospects .....it is the system and how they have been handled that I am judging and it looks bad.

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04-04-2012, 12:55 PM
  #56
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Some good and bad mixed in. I think more good than bad, but the team/prospects was a mess when he arrived so it would be hard to get worse. Praising a GM after taking the mess he received for making it "better" is equivalent to praising the ability to make Hiroshima better post WW2.

That said, what I'm suggesting is that we don't know yet. In this regard I think some posters got it right suggesting to wait and see before you plant a flag and decide pro/con. History is full of GM's who probably made the "right" choices but were laughed out of town due to luck alone.

I find it funny that slowly the BB campers and many Leaf followers have very conveniently shifted their entire view towards the "rebuild". For the past 3 years (prior to this season's collapse) it was not a full rebuild. Now, it was suddenly the plan all along. I mean if we have a constantly shifting target anyone could succeed.

So where are we now? Some good prospects and very close to the cap, with a lot of holes still glaring. I'm hopeful we can internally fix those with youth, but unless we are lucky it's going to take time. Like I always say, the truth about BB is exactly in the middle of the pro/con arguments.

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04-04-2012, 12:58 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Kessel was developed by the Bruins, but has continued to develop with the Leafs. He has seen close to a 20 point increase in production and has exceeded his career high's twice with the Leafs.

Reimer's injury has a lot to do with it, as much as people want to deny the fact. Not only the injury itself, but missing a whole month and a half of practice has a very underrated impact on any professional athlete. Look at Miller, an all-star calibre goalie regarded as a top 10 in the league, he suffered a similar injury and took a few months to regain form. It is not fair to write of a 24 year old, inexperienced goalie who has suffered a major injury in his sophomore season.

Kadri is still out of the question. Wait until he is given a fair chance to judge him.
Miller was a proven commodity before his concussion and Reimer was not. Concussion or not, I did not nor do I believe that Reimer will be a quality goalie in the NHL. He has way to many holes in his game. I hope I am wrong as he seems like a great person.

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04-04-2012, 12:59 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by dirk41 View Post
You spelled "if" incorrectly.


touché, nicely done

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04-04-2012, 01:13 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I am not judging the Prospects .....it is the system and how they have been handled that I am judging and it looks bad.
It hasn't been as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

NHL players drafted since 2001:

Boyes
Colaiacovo
Harrison
Wellwood
Steen
Stajan
White
Mitchell
Rask
Stralman
Tlusty
Kulemin
Reimer
Stalberg
Frattin
Gunnarsson
Schenn
Hayes
Kadri (soon)

19 players drafted, and we were missing our 1st for most of those years.

Now lets see Detroit

Hudler
Fleischmann
Fillpula
Ericsson
Howard
Quincey
Franson
Abdelkader
Helm
Emmerton
Matthias

11 players drafted

How about Boston...

Alberts
Jurcina
Stuart
Bergeron
Thompson
Krejci
Rome
Versteeg
Hunwik
Kessel
Lucic
Marchand
Caron
Seguin

14 players drafted

Ottawa?

Eaves
Elliot
Meszaros
Regin
Lee
Greening
Foglino
Daugavins
Condra
Karlsson
Smith
Cowen

12 players drafted

Philly?

Pitkanen
Sharp
Carter
Richards
Downie
Giroux
Nodl
JVR
Sbisa
Rinaldo
Wellwood

11 players drafted

The fact of the matter is our drafting woes have been greatly exaggerated. Sure we have a lot of quantity and limited quality, however, most of our drafting came without any 1st round picks, and most of the quality players we did draft were dealt.

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04-04-2012, 01:46 PM
  #60
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I've never understood the argument that Burke took over a team with nothing. The fact is this current team is performing just as poorly as the "horrible" team he took over. Which means this team isn't as good as people think or that they are a bunch or underachievers.

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04-04-2012, 02:34 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Colaiacovo, Boyes, Steen, etc. were all traded before Burke got here. When Burke was here, our top 10 were

Tlusty
Pogge
Stralman
Vorobiev
Stefanovich
Hayes
DiDomenico
Rau
Mitchell
Reimer
You're splitting hairs and presenting facts. Do you have something to say?

Yes Steen, Carlo, Boyes were traded before Burke got here, but they were here. They were part of the leaf organization while JFJ was here.

Then = JFJ
Now = Burke

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04-04-2012, 02:35 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Once Upon A Time View Post
I've never understood the argument that Burke took over a team with nothing. The fact is this current team is performing just as poorly as the "horrible" team he took over. Which means this team isn't as good as people think or that they are a bunch or underachievers.
Don't understand or haven't looked at the roster difference (Leafs and Marlies) between then and now? I suspect the latter.

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04-04-2012, 02:36 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
You're splitting hairs and presenting facts. Do you have something to say?

Yes Steen, Carlo, Boyes were traded before Burke got here, but they were here. They were part of the leaf organization while JFJ was here.

Then = JFJ
Now = Burke
Boyes was traded by Quinn in the Nolan deal....come on folks, you should remember this.

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04-04-2012, 02:41 PM
  #64
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Firing Burke at this critical juncture would be both foolish and shortsighted.

It's a good thing MLSE aren't being panicky pitches like people on this forum and in the media.

Let's give him the full 5/6 years he was signed for and then we'll judge. He took over a horrible team with deep organizational problems and has been building with one of (if not the) youngest teams in the league. First half of the season we were all praising him. We are a starting goalie away from a playoff spot and a front line forward away from going very deep.

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04-04-2012, 02:43 PM
  #65
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My mistake, but my point is that Burke so called "prospect re-tooling" is no better than it was before. We had potential NHLers then and we have potential NHLers now.

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04-04-2012, 02:46 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by HellasLEAF View Post
Firing Burke at this critical juncture would be both foolish and shortsighted.

It's a good thing MLSE aren't being panicky pitches like people on this forum and in the media.

Let's give him the full 5/6 years he was signed for and then we'll judge. He took over a horrible team with deep organizational problems and has been building with one of (if not the) youngest teams in the league. First half of the season we were all praising him. We are a starting goalie away from a playoff spot and a front line forward away from going very deep.
We were never that close. We could argue that we are 1 GM away from a playoff spot no?

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04-04-2012, 02:54 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
You're splitting hairs and presenting facts. Do you have something to say?

Yes Steen, Carlo, Boyes were traded before Burke got here, but they were here. They were part of the leaf organization while JFJ was here.

Then = JFJ
Now = Burke
But the argument is what it was when he came to what it is now. Sure JFJ drafted well, and we had Steen, Carlo and Boyes in our system at one point, however, that means nothing when they were traded for nothing (except Boyes, but even then it wasn't a smart move). Atleast when Burke trades picks its for a future asset, Steen and Carlo were dealt for Stempniak, Boyes for an aging Nolan, traded what essentially became Couture (would've been Eller if not Couture) for Toskala, etc. Ever glimmer of hope was dealt before they reached potential.

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04-04-2012, 02:54 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
You're splitting hairs and presenting facts. Do you have something to say?

Yes Steen, Carlo, Boyes were traded before Burke got here, but they were here. They were part of the leaf organization while JFJ was here.

Then = JFJ
Now = Burke
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
But the argument is what it was when he came to what it is now. Sure JFJ drafted well, and we had Steen, Carlo and Boyes in our system at one point, however, that means nothing when they were traded for nothing (except Boyes, but even then it wasn't a smart move). Atleast when Burke trades picks its for a future asset, Steen and Carlo were dealt for Stempniak, Boyes for an aging Nolan, traded what essentially became Couture (would've been Eller if not Couture) for Toskala, etc. Ever glimmer of hope was dealt before they reached potential.
Cant forget Rask for Raycroft either.

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04-04-2012, 03:05 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I am not judging the Prospects .....it is the system and how they have been handled that I am judging and it looks bad.
Yeah - because when you look at team like Detroit, NYR, San Jose, and Chicago doing the same thing as the Leafs are with their prospects - you know it must be bad!

In New York, Callahan went up and down for two whole seasons before making it. Del Zotto played a full season in New York, then we sent up and down in his second season.

Detroit does it with just about every prospect they have - but only after keeping them in the Farm for 2-4 full years first.

But hey - it's not like any of those teams knows how to develop players!

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04-04-2012, 03:11 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
My mistake, but my point is that Burke so called "prospect re-tooling" is no better than it was before. We had potential NHLers then and we have potential NHLers now.
Or - as this is a HF Board - you could look at the fact that when Burke took over, we were ranked 17th in organizational prospect depth, and this past fall we were ranked 8th - and when we add a potential top 5 and top 35 pick this June, I would expect that to climb further.

I'm sure it's "cooler" to think all is bleak, but I'd call that an improved prospect pool.

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04-04-2012, 03:25 PM
  #71
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Impatience? I been waiting since 1985! I know how this story ends.
Burke has not been working for MLSE since 85. The reference to impatience was your attitude to Burkies work, not the work of MLSE. Try to follow the conversation this goes to anyone who constantly blames Burke for the failures of the entire franchise since 67. If you want to have a **** team forever, then rushing a GMs work is the way to do it.

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04-04-2012, 03:31 PM
  #72
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Preds fan here, just wanted to drop in and this looks like the right thread for my question:

Now that Lombardi has played 60 games the Franson/Lombardi trade is completed.

TML will be sending a 4th round pick in 2013 to Nashville.

Are you guys still pretty happy about getting Franson + Lombardi(more specifically Lombardi's contract) for the 4th rounder?

As a Preds fan I feel better now that the pick is coming our way than I would if we'd have sent all that plus the pick...

was Lombardi worth the 3.5 he was paid(and will be paid next year)?

does Franson look like a he's gonna stick? Is he top 4 or still mainly a bottom pair/PP specialist??


Thanks.

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04-04-2012, 03:33 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
We were never that close. We could argue that we are 1 GM away from a playoff spot no?
So, what is your proposal then. Fire Burke before his contract is up? Have someone else come in and start all over again?

Or let him see it through and then judge him.

We need to give Burke the full 5 years, I'll say it again, this was the youngest team in the league, this is not the finished product and any surely can see the team and organization is improving and heading in the right direction.

This was a team, an organization, with deep deep problems coming out of the lockout and after the JFJ era. We all want the playoffs, we are all disappointed but it's time to think big picture and make sound decisions.

Firing Burke right now is the wrong move.

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Old
04-04-2012, 03:40 PM
  #74
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Leafs should of had some solid prospects or at least some young contributing core group members being drafted (from 2003-2006) that would be contributors on the roster today. What do you really expect from drafting from 2008 to be on the roster now?

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04-04-2012, 03:44 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Preds fan here, just wanted to drop in and this looks like the right thread for my question:

Now that Lombardi has played 60 games the Franson/Lombardi trade is completed.

TML will be sending a 4th round pick in 2013 to Nashville.

Are you guys still pretty happy about getting Franson + Lombardi(more specifically Lombardi's contract) for the 4th rounder?

As a Preds fan I feel better now that the pick is coming our way than I would if we'd have sent all that plus the pick...

was Lombardi worth the 3.5 he was paid(and will be paid next year)?

does Franson look like a he's gonna stick? Is he top 4 or still mainly a bottom pair/PP specialist??


Thanks.
Lombardi was and still is a plug and Franson was our 6/7 defensemen this year.(Mostly coaching reasons)

We're probably going to trade 1 or both this upcoming summer and we're probably going to get more value then a 4th round pick, but so far Franson and Lombardi have almost been a non factor. I still really like Franson and think he has Top 4 potential.

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