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Better Team Canada, 1987 vs 1976.

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Old
04-04-2012, 05:29 PM
  #1
ak90210
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Better Team Canada, 1987 vs 1976.

What team was better? The team that represented Canada in the Canada Cup in 1987 or the team from 11 years earlier in 1976?

Are 1987 team hurt by the exclusion of Roy?

Lemieux, Gretzky, Bourque, Messier etc. vs.

Orr, Clarke, Lafleur, Potvin, Robinson etc.

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04-04-2012, 05:32 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak90210 View Post
What team was better? The team that represented Canada in the Canada Cup in 1987 or the team from 11 years earlier in 1976?

Are 1987 team hurt by the exclusion of Roy?

Lemieux, Gretzky, Bourque, Messier etc. vs.

Orr, Clarke, Lafleur, Potvin, Robinson etc.
87.

Prime Gretzky and Lemieux beats an aging Orr.

Hurt by the exclusion of Roy? Are you kidding? Fuhr was better than Roy in '87.

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04-04-2012, 05:49 PM
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arrbez
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For Reference:


Team Canada 1987

Forwards:

Wayne Gretzky*
Mario Lemieux*
Mark Messier*
Doug Gilmour*
Dale Hawerchuk*
Michel Goulet*
Glen Anderson*
Mike Gartner*
Kevin Dineen
Claude Lemieux
Rick Tocchet
Brent Sutter
Brian Propp


Defense:

Ray Bourque*
Paul Coffey*
Larry Murphy*
James Patrick
Craig Hartsburg
Normand Rochefort
Doug Crossman


Goal:

Grant Fuhr*
Ron Hextall
Kelly Hrudey


Coaches:

Mike Keenan (head coach)
John Muckler
Jean Perron
Tom Watt



Team Canada 1976


Forwards:

Bobby Clarke*
Phil Esposito*
Bobby Hull*
Marcel Dionne*
Guy Lafleur*
Bill Barber*
Gilbert Perreault*
Darryl Sittler*
Bob Gainey*
Steve Shutt*
Lanny McDonald*
Danny Gare
Reggie Leach
Rick Martin
Pete Mahovlich


Defense:

Bobby Orr*
Denis Potvin*
Larry Robinson*
Guy Lapointe*
Serge Savard*
Jimmy Watson


Goal:

Rogie Vachon
Gerry Cheevers*
Chico Resch


Coaches:

Scotty Bowman (head coach)
Don Cherry
Bobby Kromm
Al MacNeil



* = Hockey Hall of Fame

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04-04-2012, 06:01 PM
  #4
ak90210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
87.

Prime Gretzky and Lemieux beats an aging Orr.

Hurt by the exclusion of Roy? Are you kidding? Fuhr was better than Roy in '87.
Roy had better stats and won Conne Smythe in 1986.

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04-04-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak90210 View Post
Roy had better stats and won Conne Smythe in 1986.
Roy won the Smythe in 1986, but he was kinda in a platoon situation for the next couple seasons. In 1987 Brian Hayward was Montreal's go-to goalie in the playoffs (and I don't think Roy was injured).

Ron Hextall had better stats than either Roy or Fuhr in 1987, and won the Conn Smyth just a couple months before the tournament. He didn't play a game either. So there you go.

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04-04-2012, 06:09 PM
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tazzy19
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1987 Powerplay:

Messier Gretzky Lemieux
Coffey Bourque

RIDICULOUS.

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04-04-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak90210 View Post
Roy had better stats and won Conne Smythe in 1986.
I am going to assume you are too young to have watched hockey in the 80s.

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04-04-2012, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak90210 View Post
What team was better? The team that represented Canada in the Canada Cup in 1987 or the team from 11 years earlier in 1976?

Are 1987 team hurt by the exclusion of Roy?

Lemieux, Gretzky, Bourque, Messier etc. vs.

Orr, Clarke, Lafleur, Potvin, Robinson etc.
That is a tough queston... Bobby Hull was outstanding in the '76 series. Look at that defense...The Big Three with Orr and Denis Potvin. That is best blueline ever hands down

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04-04-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveForDrawingBlood View Post
That is a tough queston... Bobby Hull was outstanding in the '76 series. Look at that defense...The Big Three with Orr and Denis Potvin. That is best blueline ever hands down
That blueline is unreal. When Jimmy Watson got knocked out of the tournament with a broken facebone in the second game, they just said "**** it" and played the rest of the tourny with five D

Those two teams would be a really interesting matchup. I think the '76 squad has better depth, and clearly a better blueline. But on the other hand...Gretzky-Lemieux. I wonder what Gainey-Clarke could have done matched up against those two...

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04-04-2012, 09:07 PM
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McGuillicuddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak90210 View Post
Roy had better stats and won Conne Smythe in 1986.
Ugh. Not this again:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1042289&page=4

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04-04-2012, 09:14 PM
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1987. They faced and beat better competition.

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04-04-2012, 11:06 PM
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ak90210
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1976 defence is so good.
They had a lot of firepower too.

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04-04-2012, 11:32 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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it's really hard not to go with '76 because of better depth, and a far better bottom half of its lineup.

if you knew you were playing against a team with gretzky and mario on it, and you had to put together a scoring line of any three other post-expansion forwards to try to keep up with them, would any of us not choose hull-esposito-lafleur? i mean, i guess you could argue post-expansion howe or jagr, maybe bossy, but the point is, if anyone is going to approach the ridiculousness of gretzky-mario, it's those three.

the rest of the forwards on the '76 team are ridiculous. all but four are hall of famers. of those four, three are 50 goal scorers and the other once scored 117 points in a season. and, as mentioned upthread, gainey and clarke. arguably the two greatest defensive forwards of all time.

nothing needs to be said about the '76 d. speaks completely for itself.

i like the '87 forwards. the non-stars were good role players who could also score. good speed, good forechecking, and very gritty too. but that '87 d is awful in comparison. only two of those guys could even crack the '76 team's top five. i liked norman rochefort, but it's not like he's rod langway. and good luck even trying to stop hull, esposito, lafleur, dionne, perreault, clarke, leach, etc. when one of your d pairs has to have two of coffey, murphy, patrick, and crossman.

goalies are pretty much a wash. coaches, however, are a big mismatch.

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04-04-2012, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomerHimpson View Post
1987. They faced and beat better competition.
Yeah, all of their opponents were quite a bit better in 1987 than in 1976. Except for Czechoslovakia perhaps.

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04-05-2012, 01:51 AM
  #15
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Not saying '87 is better, but they had to overcome Krutov - Larionov - Makarov while '76 didn't have to face Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov.

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04-05-2012, 09:31 AM
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Fred Taylor
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I would say the 87 team is better, but it's really close.

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04-05-2012, 11:51 AM
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If 1987 didn't have Gretzky-Lemieux duo the answer would be fairly easy.

But those two could win anygame by themself and you cannot say that they would loose a game or a serie.

they can loose, but you cannot ever be sure of that.

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04-05-2012, 12:08 PM
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1976's defense is just hilarious , while 1987's has Lemieux and Gretzky close to their prime playing together.I would love to see a series between both teams.

I think I would go with 1976 , they also have a tremendous coaching advantage.Gretzky and Lemieux would lead the series in scoring , but the depth of 76 is too good to bet against them.

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04-05-2012, 03:22 PM
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It is too close to call...in a short series like that it could go either way. If I had to bet I would put my money on '76. Mainly because of Scotty Bowman, and that defense was off the chart.


Last edited by FiveForDrawingBlood: 04-07-2012 at 11:03 AM.
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04-05-2012, 03:38 PM
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I'd never bet against 99 & 66 on the same team - BUT....the defense on the 76 team is too much of a differentiator. Looking at the talent on the 76 team, combined with how well defensively players like Gainey, Clarke, Potvin, Orr, Robinson and Lapointe were - goals would be at a premium.

Would be a fun series to watch, that's for sure.

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04-05-2012, 04:20 PM
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But 1976 team just give 6 goal and 5 games, obviously their defensive were great, but they had a hard time beating the Czechoslovakia team were they that good (I mean the czech)?

the 1987 did not win game with a clear margin from what I look.

(Did not watch any of those being born in 1984).

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04-05-2012, 07:54 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I'd never bet against 99 & 66 on the same team - BUT....the defense on the 76 team is too much of a differentiator. Looking at the talent on the 76 team, combined with how well defensively players like Gainey, Clarke, Potvin, Orr, Robinson and Lapointe were - goals would be at a premium.

Would be a fun series to watch, that's for sure.
hypothetical first PK unit: gainey, clarke, potvin/robinson, savard.


and then...

hypothetical first PP unit: esposito, dionne/perreault/clarke, and lafleur up front, orr and hull on the point (from what i understand, hull often played point of the PP because of his shot).

the greatest offensive defenseman of all time (well, technically the greatest player of all time), the greatest slap shot of all time, the greatest crease man of all time, a ridiculously good playmaking winger who also was an annual 50 goal scorer, then your pick of skilled playmaking centers.


unbelievable.


if dryden and/or a healthy parent had been on the '76 team, i don't think i'd even think twice about picking them.

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04-05-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
hypothetical first PK unit: gainey, clarke, potvin/robinson, savard.


and then...

hypothetical first PP unit: esposito, dionne/perreault/clarke, and lafleur up front, orr and hull on the point (from what i understand, hull often played point of the PP because of his shot).

the greatest offensive defenseman of all time (well, technically the greatest player of all time), the greatest slap shot of all time, the greatest crease man of all time, a ridiculously good playmaking winger who also was an annual 50 goal scorer, then your pick of skilled playmaking centers.


unbelievable.


if dryden and/or a healthy parent had been on the '76 team, i don't think i'd even think twice about picking them.
The 86 team has the "wow" factor of a line with Gretzky and Lemieux, but if you look down the roster I think should be considered the better team. The 76 defence is essentially amazing hall of famers exclusively on the ice for an entire 60 minutes. Just think that defence makes 76 team probably greatest of all time.


Didn't see either play though unfortunately due to being born in mid 80s.

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04-05-2012, 08:55 PM
  #24
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak90210 View Post
The 86 team has the "wow" factor of a line with Gretzky and Lemieux, but if you look down the roster I think should be considered the better team. The 76 defence is essentially amazing hall of famers exclusively on the ice for an entire 60 minutes. Just think that defence makes 76 team probably greatest of all time.


Didn't see either play though unfortunately due to being born in mid 80s.
i just keep thinking of that powerplay now. i didn't see the '76 team, but if you take the first PP unit to be esposito, dionne, lafleur, orr, and hull, that's 14 of the art rosses from 1960 to 1980. sure, wayne and mario combined for 14 in a row all by themselves, but for mere mortals (+ bobby orr), that's pretty amazing.

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04-05-2012, 11:10 PM
  #25
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I have to go with the 1976 team.

Goalies - Pretty much a wash. Fuhr and Vachon were both pretty much in their primes. There are more arguments for Vachon being in the HHOF than not. Maybe if I have a gun to my head Fuhr is slightly better at that point in their careers but its close.

Defense - Huge edge to the 1976 team. That big 5 pack is just too hard to overcome. Who was the worst one out of those 5.....Serge Savard? The 1987 team had a good trifecta of Bourque, Coffey and Murphy but it drops after that which the 1976 doesn't do.

Forwards - The higher end talent favours 1987. But the depth favours 1976. In fact, while Gretzky is #1 on either team I don't think Lemieux in 1987 is much - if at all - better than Lafleur or Clarke. Mario sort of had his coming out party here and this isn't the 1991 Mario quite yet either. The 1987 team had Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier and then a little bit of a drop to Hawerchuk, Gilmour, Goulet, Anderson, Propp and Gartner.

The 1976 team had Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, Hull, Dionne, Sittler, Esposito, Barber, P. Mahovlich. Then a bit of a drop to Leach, McDonald, Gare, Gainey and Martin. That's just scary stuff. The 1987 team doesn't have depth like that. Everyone on the 1976 forward corps is either in the HHOF or was certainly playing like on at the time. People should really watch Perreault in those games, he was fantastic and probably is a good example of why we watch hockey. Hull was still very good at the time.

Coaching - Bowman over Keenan. I know as time has gone on Keenan hasn't aged well in people's eyes, but he was a tough as nails coach who won a lot of games in those years like him or not. Still, we're talking Scotty Bowman here.

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