We haven't drafted players with so much talent. Detroit with 50% of NHL'ers has done a better job than us and always drafted after our number.
Plekanec, Subban, Price, Pacioretty, Grabovski, Kostityn Bros. That's not enough over a ten year run. In fact some his best shots are just pure luck ex: Halak, Streit in the very late rounds.
Woot, a Burke copy is gonna come in and wreck the future of the team so we can remain mediocre forever. I really hope this is not what happens. The new GM needs to come in and do almost nothing for his first summer and evaluate what he has, and let young players develop further. Really, really hope you're wrong.
Let's wait and see what happens before we assume that.
I wouldn't expect the GM to come in the first summer and do almost nothing. The general public is expecting results, and the pressure is going to be on to deliver the results. Regardless of what we the more educated fan here think, 90% of the fans want a cup and they want it as soon as they can get it.
I'd entertain the offer of moving some picks, depending on return of course. It's all about how you manage the assets, my biggest wish is that the new GM is better at managing those said assets than the last two we've had.
If he's a good communicator, why not? There's also Kekalainen if we wanted to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP
No source but I believe Mtl is No. 1 in this regard, ratio of team draft picks making it to the NHL. A source I can't link to says we're No. 3. Anyway, impressive.
Colour me cynical but Timmins' sterling success rate is one reason I'm not as thrilled as some that we'll have a top-5 pick this year. Our crappiness has no connection to the draft, clearly the cause of our crappiness lies elsewhere. You can give a monkey a Stradavarius and he'll only pound it into his own feces.
Detroit says hi. We want to model after Detroit? We need to hold on TT.
We haven't drafted players with so much talent. Detroit with 50% of NHL'ers has done a better job than us and always drafted after our number.
Plekanec, Subban, Price, Pacioretty, Grabovski, Kostityn Bros. That's not enough over a ten year run. In fact some his best shots are just pure luck ex: Halak, Streit in the very late rounds.
1. Plekanec was drafted in 2001 and Timmins came in 2003. Why shouldnt Halak and Streit count? Because they are late picks..? Great logic here.. so Datsuyk and Holmstrom shouldn't count either then...Plus you forgot Mcdonagh,Latendresse,Emelin,Lapierre,Dagostini,Leb lanc ( just look the 1st page). Fact is, TT has done very well with the picks he had, its not his fault they traded away half his selections!
1. Plekanec was drafted in 2001 and Timmins came in 2003. Why shouldnt Halak and Streit count? Because they are late picks..? Great logic here.. so Datsuyk and Holmstrom shouldn't count either then...Plus you forgot Mcdonagh,Latendresse,Emelin,Lapierre,Dagostini,Leb lanc ( just look the 1st page). Fact is, TT has done very well with the picks he had, its not his fault they traded away half his selections!
The 2003 first two rounds and the 2006 first round picks KILLED the Habs for years.
The 2003 first two rounds and the 2006 first round picks KILLED the Habs for years.
Bit of an overstatement. The simple fact is Timmins' record is much better than the league average. In terms of blown picks, Subban in the 2nd makes up for a Fischer in the first, for example. Honestly, of all the things that have "KILLED" the Habs for years, Timmins isn't part of the problem.
Put Getzlaf, Bergeron (or Shea Weber) and Giroux on that team, and you have no need for Gomez (or Cammy or Gionta) , and you probably still have McDonagh....
Put Getzlaf, Bergeron (or Shea Weber) and Giroux on that team, and you have no need for Gomez (or Cammy or Gionta) , and you probably still have McDonagh....
So drafting better makes better team. Thank you for this amazing insight. Of course, it doesn't change the fact that Timmins is one of the best head scout in the league.
Put Getzlaf, Bergeron (or Shea Weber) and Giroux on that team, and you have no need for Gomez (or Cammy or Gionta) , and you probably still have McDonagh....
That is too easy. Looking back and criticising picks is somewhat unfair. Many teams passed on Giroux, not only Montreal. For those you do not know, he was not good enough to make the OHL and Hull of the Q was able to get him because no OHL team signed him. Giroux played Major Bantam and Minor Midget AA for the Cumberland Barons in the 2002–03 and 2003–04 seasons, Giroux entered the 2005 OHL draft but was undrafted. Also, Giroux was a very late bloomer. He was a risky pick.....I love him. I watched him in Hull while he was here but I would not have bet that he would have turned out to be a prime NHL star.
That is too easy. Looking back and criticising picks is somewhat unfair. Many teams passed on Giroux, not only Montreal. For those you do not know, he was not good enough to make the OHL and Hull of the Q was able to get him because no OHL team signed him. Giroux played Major Bantam and Minor Midget AA for the Cumberland Barons in the 2002–03 and 2003–04 seasons, Giroux entered the 2005 OHL draft but was undrafted. Also, Giroux was a very late bloomer. He was a risky pick.....I love him. I watched him in Hull while he was here but I would not have bet that he would have turned out to be a prime NHL star.
Again, how do you judge's someone work when you can't look back? Is it unfair too to Milbury who is seen as the worst GM of all-time? While some would have said it when the trades occured, we still had to wait till everything settled to then determine how bad he was. Which is exactly the same for everyone involved. Geez, even you, me and everyone else, has to be judged at work based on what we have done in the past. Why not GM's, head scouts and coaches?
Okay so Giroux was probaby not going to be a top 5 player in the league....yet we are not talking about Jean-Gabriel Pageau here, who did go in the 5th round so THAT would be totally coming out of nowhere despite his Q success. Giroux was still a 1st rounder. There are guys out there that went after him that are pretty good as well. And it's not like we pick #5 that year. But #20. And for this draft and for most drafts, from #20 to #30, it could go everywhere.
Montreal is the ONLY team to have a combine for Q players. Montreal is also amongst a few teams who actually somewhat believes in that league while at least half of them don't have a scout dedicated to the league who frankly just doesn't believe in that league period. Add the history that our team has with francos, and here are 3 reasons why we shouldn't miss players. Yet, maybe it's human to miss players. But it shouldn't be for a guy who was already pencilled as ALSO a boom or bust prospect. See, Fischer was NO McDonagh. Ryan was seen as a surefire NHL'er. Fischer was seen as guy with potential but with A LOT of work to do. Now, shooting is not all in playing hockey, but like I keep saying, I have NEVER seen anybody in all the development, rookie and pro camps I've been to a guy who had such a bad wrister and slapper. INCLUDED the invitees. Surely, Fischer was a smooth skater. And was playing the 1 on 1 pretty good with some nice stickwork but really awful strength he had A LOT to work on.
But the main problem, again, is that while I do NOT have anything against going for needs from time to time, Timmins admitted that we NEEDED to revamp our D's in 2006 and 2007. Which to me is not the smartest thing to do especially when, proof being there, you end up missing a guy in your backyards. 'Cause again, Bobby Clarke had not a lot of idea who that Giroux was. But there's a guy who sold Giroux to Clarke and it was Simon Nolet. So we have strong people working the Q like Nolet and you never know, Timmins might have been convinced. We neglected that league and got screwed in a couple of occasions. That cannot happen. And I hope it won't. Doesn't mean that it will be Q filled every draft, everybody knows it won't.
A lot of people complain about TT but wouldn`t even have been able to draft more than 5 nhlers through those years scouting players. Yes he drafted Fischer over giroux GET OVER IT. Yes Philly got Carter and mike richards we got kostitsyn. 2007 we got Mcdoughnah, max pac, subban!!! How many fans from other teams are crying about that draft?
Are team doesn`t suck because of TT. The team sucks because they didn`t win enough trades secure the right players to make this team better. Which falls into the GM`s lap. I thought BOB gainey did well as GM. Its gauthier that ruined it with not preparing the team with the right players and trading players for worse contracts/ players.
A lot of people complain about TT but wouldn`t even have been able to draft more than 5 nhlers through those years scouting players. Yes he drafted Fischer over giroux GET OVER IT. Yes Philly got Carter and mike richards we got kostitsyn. 2007 we got Mcdoughnah, max pac, subban!!! How many fans from other teams are crying about that draft?
Are team doesn`t suck because of TT. The team sucks because they didn`t win enough trades secure the right players to make this team better. Which falls into the GM`s lap. I thought BOB gainey did well as GM. Its gauthier that ruined it with not preparing the team with the right players and trading players for worse contracts/ players.
Everybody recognizes Timmins work. Yet, it's not questioning the picks itself but certain strategies that were used and they weren't right of doing it. Even great people have their weaknesses. Why is it a problem to discuss it?
And that's coming from we who for a long time now, keeps saying Timmins IS the only great news in the organization while people keep defending the great Gauthier-Gainey era. You can't such a drafting record and not have a better team unless your bosses screwed this up. So I totally agree that with a better development strategy, we don't discuss Timmins "weaknesses". Just that with mediocre management, we end up discussing it. Yet, nobody wants him to go. I mean, discussing some people weaknesses does not necessarily mean wanting to get rid of him. Yet, it should be allowed to still do so even if we recognize that he's far from being a problem.
Oh and everybody cries about the draft. Though you'll say some truly deserve to cry about it.
We haven't drafted players with so much talent. Detroit with 50% of NHL'ers has done a better job than us and always drafted after our number.
Plekanec, Subban, Price, Pacioretty, Grabovski, Kostityn Bros. That's not enough over a ten year run. In fact some his best shots are just pure luck ex: Halak, Streit in the very late rounds.
Detroit has drafted terribly for quite a while now and Timmins has been arguably the best at his profession during that span. Detroit is the one who got lucky with Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Holmstrom. How many Nhlers are playing on other teamthat were selected by the wings?...........the answer is far less than were drafted by Timmins and the Habs.
Go ahead and check out Detroit's drafts since the lockout...........it is ugly!
Again, how do you judge's someone work when you can't look back? Is it unfair too to Milbury who is seen as the worst GM of all-time? While some would have said it when the trades occured, we still had to wait till everything settled to then determine how bad he was. Which is exactly the same for everyone involved. Geez, even you, me and everyone else, has to be judged at work based on what we have done in the past. Why not GM's, head scouts and coaches?
Okay so Giroux was probaby not going to be a top 5 player in the league....yet we are not talking about Jean-Gabriel Pageau here, who did go in the 5th round so THAT would be totally coming out of nowhere despite his Q success. Giroux was still a 1st rounder. There are guys out there that went after him that are pretty good as well. And it's not like we pick #5 that year. But #20. And for this draft and for most drafts, from #20 to #30, it could go everywhere.
Montreal is the ONLY team to have a combine for Q players. Montreal is also amongst a few teams who actually somewhat believes in that league while at least half of them don't have a scout dedicated to the league who frankly just doesn't believe in that league period. Add the history that our team has with francos, and here are 3 reasons why we shouldn't miss players. Yet, maybe it's human to miss players. But it shouldn't be for a guy who was already pencilled as ALSO a boom or bust prospect. See, Fischer was NO McDonagh. Ryan was seen as a surefire NHL'er. Fischer was seen as guy with potential but with A LOT of work to do. Now, shooting is not all in playing hockey, but like I keep saying, I have NEVER seen anybody in all the development, rookie and pro camps I've been to a guy who had such a bad wrister and slapper. INCLUDED the invitees. Surely, Fischer was a smooth skater. And was playing the 1 on 1 pretty good with some nice stickwork but really awful strength he had A LOT to work on.
But the main problem, again, is that while I do NOT have anything against going for needs from time to time, Timmins admitted that we NEEDED to revamp our D's in 2006 and 2007. Which to me is not the smartest thing to do especially when, proof being there, you end up missing a guy in your backyards. 'Cause again, Bobby Clarke had not a lot of idea who that Giroux was. But there's a guy who sold Giroux to Clarke and it was Simon Nolet. So we have strong people working the Q like Nolet and you never know, Timmins might have been convinced. We neglected that league and got screwed in a couple of occasions. That cannot happen. And I hope it won't. Doesn't mean that it will be Q filled every draft, everybody knows it won't.
That is entirely over simplistic. Not sure you grasp the challenge of evaluating future pro players and the body of work that goes into each evaluation.
The counter argument is....well, we got PK Subban in the 2nd round and Halak late in the draft. Did everyone missed those guys?
The reality of the matter is that every team is working off criteria and the better judgement of individual assessments. At the end of the day, it is a crap shot. There is a tread on the board about Timmins. He has the 5th best record over the last 8 years at drafting players that actually make it to the NHL.
Of course, there are always the Monday morning quarterbacks that will pretend to know it all and ***** about mist opportunities......
The flip side of this is Doug Wickenheiser. Best stats in all Canadian Juniors in 1980 (170 points in season and 40 in playoffs for 210 points combined), burned the WHL, literally, had the size to booth and yet could not make it to the NHL anywhere need the level expected for a 1st round pick. Drafting is not a precise science. Sometimes you get lucky and find a Halak late in the draft and sometimes you get stuck with Doug Wikenheiser....nuf said.
Last edited by Sargent Pepper*: 04-07-2012 at 10:18 PM.
Again, how do you judge's someone work when you can't look back?
That's not the point. Of course you look back to judge someone work. But we need to judge him compared to his peers, not compared to some hypothetical "perfect" drafting scenario. Just like we judge Stamkos scoring by comparing him to his peers, not by pointing out the numerous times he missed a shot.
Of course, it doesn't mean Stamkos (and Timmins) aren't above criticism either, but when I see people seriously suggesting we replace Timmins, I wonder if they follow the same league as I am.
I don't know if Timmins is the best or one of the best head scout in the league, but for comparison sake, he's a better head scout than Price is a goalie.
You can give a monkey a Stradavarius and he'll only pound it into his own feces.
