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Are the Leafs THE biggest mess in the entire NHL?

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Old
04-07-2012, 08:35 AM
  #76
Dayjobdave
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Originally Posted by TheDroughtEndsHERE View Post
As a 22 year old I havn't experienced much in the world? I moved out on my own at 16, had a daughter at 18 and never looked back. Do not sit there and question me and my "experiences" in life, because you have no idea and do not know me.

As far as the "winning your final game on home ice means something" what have the Leafs done every year post-lockout? Terrible all year and finished great, just to give fans alittle hope, only for it to be crushed the following season in the same fashion.
Like I said, as a 22 year old you have not experienced much of the world. Perhaps more than some other 22 year olds, but trust me, you'll look back at yourself when you were 22 and agree with my statement.

It means something to win. You watch the games to see your team win. You don't watch the games thinking it would be actually better to have 20 losers in the lineup who quit. This team consists of a bunch of key players who are kids roughly your age. Would it be better if they quit when they faced challenges or grew as a result of them? Think of your own life. You've had some challenges. There are some, I bet even people close to you who want the best for you, who have told you that you could have been better off if you'd run away from some of your challenges. It makes you a better, stronger, more mature person with more character that you did not.

Same for them. That's why we watch them.

No bigger closet GM than me on these boards, but I believe as much as I want us to get a top pick we're better off with a team that doesn't quit.

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Old
04-07-2012, 08:40 AM
  #77
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Columbus and Calgary say hi. We're not nearly in as bad a shape moving forward as those two.

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Old
04-07-2012, 09:05 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TheDroughtEndsHERE View Post
Another win tonight, another 2 points that we don't need.
That seems to be the story the last few seasons for these Leafs teams.
Win meaningless games that cost us future great players and we end up
with possible 2nd line/2nd pairing talent instead of 1st line/top pairing talent.

After having a heated "discussion" with my father in law tonight (he's a Bruins fan..
it's been a rough year for me) it got me thinking: Just how big of a mess are the
Leafs in?

You look at every team in the playoffs and they have 3 things:

#1 centre, #1 d-man, #1 goalie

Looking at the Leafs roster and the Marlies roster...we don't have even 1 of
those things.

Even if you look outside the playoff picture, almost every team has a #1 centre,
#1 goalie and #1 d-man either on their team or in the pipeline.

Sure, we can say guys like Kadri, Colborne and Biggs are "great prospects"...
but the fact is, they'll likely max out as 2nd liners (if that).

I turn 22 in July and I remember all the great years with Sundin, Cujo and Co.
and it seems like year after year it's just getting harder and harder to support
this team and stick up for this once proud organization.

If you look at the picture without "blue and white goggles on"..the picture looks
pretty bleak, does it not?

And please Leaf fans, don't tell me that Ross and Carrick are going to bring us
the cup...
Everybody has a number one defenceman but many aren't even as good as Phaneuf. It's really sad the flack this guy gets. Ahead of Keith, Yandle, Timonen, Bieksa, Burns, Doughty etc. etc. He's also 7th in the league in hits for a dman and fights. Not sure what this guy needs to do but he's better than many guys that are constantly touted. He's also only 26 years old and not even in what is considered his prime as a dman.

Let's add Gardiner to the conversation -- 30 points as a rookie. Take a look at all the other young studs in the league and tell me how that compares?

While I don't like the job Burke has done -- no playoffs -- there is no way this team is the biggest mess. With Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, Grabovski, Kulemin, Kadri, Frattin, Schenn, Franson , Gunnarson, etc. they have many of the young pieces needed to take the next step.

Add guys like Ashton, Colborne, Percy, Biggs, Kadri + this years first picks and more -- and the cupboard has more in it than most teams. So I'm not sure how you could come to your conclusion but I guess the blinders tell the story you want.

Lupul XXX Kessel
Kulemin Grabovski MacArthur
Kadri Bozak Frattin
Ashton Colborne Meuller

Schenn Phaneuf
Gardiner XXX
Gunnarson Franson

XXX
Reimer

This is a group you can move forward with. Depending on how the draft works out one of those big XXX's might be filled. Signing a kid like Shultz might fill another of those. At that point there is probably enough in the coffers to sign a veteran goalie or trade for one.

This team has some good possibilities moving forward but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be all over Burke until he finishes the job. There is a lot of parody in the NHL and you can go from worst to first in a hurry. A top tender is a must and once that piece is here this team will be in the playoffs.

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Old
04-07-2012, 09:20 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Everybody has a number one defenceman but many aren't even as good as Phaneuf. It's really sad the flack this guy gets. Ahead of Keith, Yandle, Timonen, Bieksa, Burns, Doughty etc. etc. He's also 7th in the league in hits for a dman and fights. Not sure what this guy needs to do but he's better than many guys that are constantly touted. He's also only 26 years old and not even in what is considered his prime as a dman.

Let's add Gardiner to the conversation -- 30 points as a rookie. Take a look at all the other young studs in the league and tell me how that compares?

While I don't like the job Burke has done -- no playoffs -- there is no way this team is the biggest mess. With Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, Grabovski, Kulemin, Kadri, Frattin, Schenn, Franson , Gunnarson, etc. they have many of the young pieces needed to take the next step.

Add guys like Ashton, Colborne, Percy, Biggs, Kadri + this years first picks and more -- and the cupboard has more in it than most teams. So I'm not sure how you could come to your conclusion but I guess the blinders tell the story you want.

Lupul XXX Kessel
Kulemin Grabovski MacArthur
Kadri Bozak Frattin
Ashton Colborne Meuller

Schenn Phaneuf
Gardiner XXX
Gunnarson Franson

XXX
Reimer

This is a group you can move forward with. Depending on how the draft works out one of those big XXX's might be filled. Signing a kid like Shultz might fill another of those. At that point there is probably enough in the coffers to sign a veteran goalie or trade for one.

This team has some good possibilities moving forward but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be all over Burke until he finishes the job. There is a lot of parody in the NHL and you can go from worst to first in a hurry. A top tender is a must and once that piece is here this team will be in the playoffs.
I'd bet that at least 2/3 of the league, if not more, have similarly talented prospects such as those you listed.

And we still desperately lack a 1C and 1G. This team is going nowhere without a drastic improvement in net. Phaneuf was below average on DEFENSE too many nights this year; he has to improve defensively to be considered a 1D. Gardiner has been our best and most reliable dman most nights, let's hope he doesn't suffer a sophomore slump. I do think we'll be better next season without such a nosedive slump, but as we will almost assuredly still lack a number one goalie and a number one center next year it's hard to be genuinely optimistic, not to mention the holes on defense.

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Old
04-07-2012, 09:25 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by TheDroughtEndsHERE View Post
Really? Carolina and Edmonton say hi?
Maybe it's just me, but I would take Eric Staal, Jeff Skinner and Cam Ward or Hall, Eberle and RNH as the foundation of my team before I took Kessel, Grabovski and Phanuef...
Me an you both. Leaf fans are simply delusional. Leafs have nothing close to Staal, Skinner and Ward or Edmonton's trio of excellence. I love it how the fans point to the future like there are some stars in the making waiting to rescue the Leafs. The Leafs are a bad hockey team. They are definitely in the bottom 5 of the NHL. Perhaps only Calgary is worse off going forward. I look at the Habs and they have Price/Subban and Pacioretty. Even Columbus will probably have Nash and Yakupov going forward. Anaheim with Fowler,Getz,Perry. Isles are stacked with young talent and are going to get better.

Burke has been a collossal failure.

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04-07-2012, 09:25 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Everybody has a number one defenceman but many aren't even as good as Phaneuf. It's really sad the flack this guy gets. Ahead of Keith, Yandle, Timonen, Bieksa, Burns, Doughty etc. etc. He's also 7th in the league in hits for a dman and fights. Not sure what this guy needs to do but he's better than many guys that are constantly touted. He's also only 26 years old and not even in what is considered his prime as a dman.

Let's add Gardiner to the conversation -- 30 points as a rookie. Take a look at all the other young studs in the league and tell me how that compares?

While I don't like the job Burke has done -- no playoffs -- there is no way this team is the biggest mess. With Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, Grabovski, Kulemin, Kadri, Frattin, Schenn, Franson , Gunnarson, etc. they have many of the young pieces needed to take the next step.

Add guys like Ashton, Colborne, Percy, Biggs, Kadri + this years first picks and more -- and the cupboard has more in it than most teams. So I'm not sure how you could come to your conclusion but I guess the blinders tell the story you want.

Lupul XXX Kessel
Kulemin Grabovski MacArthur
Kadri Bozak Frattin
Ashton Colborne Meuller

Schenn Phaneuf
Gardiner XXX
Gunnarson Franson

XXX
Reimer

This is a group you can move forward with. Depending on how the draft works out one of those big XXX's might be filled. Signing a kid like Shultz might fill another of those. At that point there is probably enough in the coffers to sign a veteran goalie or trade for one.

This team has some good possibilities moving forward but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be all over Burke until he finishes the job. There is a lot of parody in the NHL and you can go from worst to first in a hurry. A top tender is a must and once that piece is here this team will be in the playoffs.
Some Franchises may seem like a parody of a real NHL franchise (the Islanders come to mind) but I think you mean to say there is a lot of parity in the league.

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Old
04-07-2012, 09:35 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Me an you both. Leaf fans are simply delusional. Leafs have nothing close to Staal, Skinner and Ward or Edmonton's trio of excellence. I love it how the fans point to the future like there are some stars in the making waiting to rescue the Leafs. The Leafs are a bad hockey team. They are definitely in the bottom 5 of the NHL. Perhaps only Calgary is worse off going forward. I look at the Habs and they have Price/Subban and Pacioretty. Even Columbus will probably have Nash and Yakupov going forward. Anaheim with Fowler,Getz,Perry. Isles are stacked with young talent and are going to get better.
No doubt about it, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Leafs are definitely a bottom 5 team in the league. I disagree that only Calgary is worse off. I'd include Columbus in there, even if they draft Yakupov. It's a terrible situation right now, especially after the Nash trade request fiasco. If that team is to survive, Rick Nash cannot be a Blue Jacket next season. I'd throw Edmonton in there, even with their trio of stars, because after #93, #4 and #14, there's not much else. Very thin on defense and in goal. Add Montreal. Aside from Pacioretty and Price, there's not really anyone I'd want off that roster. As well, the New York Islanders are another team I think is more poorly managed than Toronto. Aside from Tavares and Moulson, that roster is garbage. So I'd say Calgary, Columbus, Edmonton, Montreal and the Islanders are all in worse situations than Toronto.

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Burke has been a collossal failure.
No argument there.

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Old
04-07-2012, 09:40 AM
  #83
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At least we don't have to expend a 1st round pick on a goalie or draft high to get one.

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04-07-2012, 09:46 AM
  #84
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I'd bet that at least 2/3 of the league, if not more, have similarly talented prospects such as those you listed.

And we still desperately lack a 1C and 1G. This team is going nowhere without a drastic improvement in net. Phaneuf was below average on DEFENSE too many nights this year; he has to improve defensively to be considered a 1D. Gardiner has been our best and most reliable dman most nights, let's hope he doesn't suffer a sophomore slump. I do think we'll be better next season without such a nosedive slump, but as we will almost assuredly still lack a number one goalie and a number one center next year it's hard to be genuinely optimistic, not to mention the holes on defense.
I didn't list them all. And while everyone has an 80 point, perennial 30 goal man that's 24 like Kessel, and a 22 year old dman that leads the league in hits, and a 26 year old captain that's 11th in scoring for dman, 7th in hits, and can deliver the big hits plus fight...yeah I get it Leafs are poop. They have nothing...

Kadri is poop, Gardiner is a fluke, Luke Schenn is finished at 22, Kessel is a bum, Phaneuf is a moron, and the other prospects they have will never amount to a thing. You make a good point. It's lucky the Leafs are in the league because none of these guys could get a job anywhere else.

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04-07-2012, 10:19 AM
  #85
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Yes they are a huge mess. Only Columbus is worse, but we weren't saying that early in the season. Whatever hit them around the 60 game mark is not representative of a sudden absence of talent and as much as I wanted to put it all at the feet of Wilson there is a bit more more to it.

Whether it was a smart move for BB to sign Carlyle for 3 years is arguable, but if he gets a buy-in to his system, he should have some success. Hitchcock wasn't awful his last year in Columbus and then terrific this year. He has better players sure, but mostly its a better fit.

My take is that the clubs worst mistake was sticking with Wilson too long. After they hit bottom and RW was still trying to hang on, the losses kept piling up and it kind of poisoned them. A reverse of a rolling team feeding of its success where players perform over their heads(like a bunch of Blues). They need a time out. RW can't take the hit for Kule, Army, Connolly, or Lombardi though. These guys need to look at themselves.

Now if the stars align and they get a better player in the draft than Kadri or Schenn(easily possible) they add one good free agent, and the four or five guys on the club who did personal tanks this year have even average seasons, next year will look completely different. No easy fix like this for the guys in Columbus, or for the Calgary organization who have been trying to do their own BB retool on the fly.

I don't know that the Leafs have a worse D than the Cup winners in Tampa and Carolina. You don't need a Chara or a Lidstrom.

The Leafs goalies get shutouts. They are not the punching bags that some blowout games suggest. Those kind of losses are team chokes. If any one of their top 3 goalies finds another gear next year they will be okay in net, and if not, so long as they don't wait all season to correct it with a decent vet(doesn't have to be Vezina calibre) it won't be a huge issue. Mike Smith, Craig Anderson, and Brian Elliott are castoffs, not generational talents that have to be acquired at great cost.

The number 1 center is still a big hole, and I am pretty sure not one anyone in the organization now can fill (adios big Joe) but if you look at the stat line for Boston, Chicago, or NYR, no center is coming close to 80 points. Look at St louis or Phoenix. The Leafs need to play smarter hockey, and they need a better guy than Bozak to play with Kessel, but they don't need Stamkos or Tavares to succeed.

It all starts with no Devereaux tonight

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04-07-2012, 10:36 AM
  #86
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We're among the biggest messes for sure.

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04-07-2012, 10:49 AM
  #87
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We're among the biggest messes for sure.
Only Columbus, Edmonton and NYI have recorded less wins and points as an organization than Toronto over the course of Burke's tenure as GM.

All this current team is missing now after 4 seasons of turnover is a #1 Center, #1 Dman and #1 Goalie, which just happen to be the 3 most important player personnel items, that make up the backbone on a serious contending successful team.

At least we as fans have mercifully seen the end of the Ron Wilson pond hockey era in Toronto, so at least that is something we can hang our hats on as verifiable improvement during these dark years of disappointment in Leaf Nation.

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04-07-2012, 11:04 AM
  #88
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The Leafs are right in the thick of the battle for the NHL's Biggest Mess award.

I'd say it is a 4-way fight between Toronto, Columbus, the Islanders and the Habs.

The Leafs situation is due to a weak 50 man system and chronic mismanagement. 8 years of no playoffs, no #1 centre, terrible goaltending, a porous defence and a poor prospect pool says it all.

Columbus has really been in trouble since year 1. Poor drafting, poor trades, poor signings and poor play.

What do you say about the Isles? Their cupboard is pretty empty. Bad management. Chincey owner. If they would spend some money, they might become competitive.

Montreal's disarray is mainly management-based. If they can get their GM issue settled and find a coach, a lot of the problems will sort themselves out.


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04-07-2012, 11:17 AM
  #89
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Mark my words everybody here. I looked into my crystal ball and we will NOT make the playoffs next year either. We have too many flaws, issues, etc. Its really hard to see all these problems get solved over an off season.

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04-07-2012, 11:48 AM
  #90
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Let's just say we're lucky the Flames are around, otherwise we'd be the biggest mess.

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04-07-2012, 11:52 AM
  #91
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Mark my words everybody here. I looked into my crystal ball and we will NOT make the playoffs next year either. We have too many flaws, issues, etc. Its really hard to see all these problems get solved over an off season.
I agree! how do you fix this?

Lupul ???? Kessel
Kulemin Grabovski Frattin
Kadri Bozak MacArthur
Ashton Colborne Crabb

Schenn Phaneuf
Gardiner Franson
Gunnarson ????

????
Reimer

What assets do the Leafs have, besides their #1 pick, that they can move to fill these gaps?

If they move any players on the line combos above, they will further weaken their organizational depth and have more immediate holes to fill.

The 3rd and 4th lines I have made above are what I see as the best players available in the organization, not necessarily the best player suited for the position he is slotted in.

Where does Burke, or his replacement (), start?

I'd look at Luongo or Schneider to fill that immediate need.


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04-07-2012, 01:54 PM
  #92
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Definitely a mess.

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04-07-2012, 02:14 PM
  #93
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We are definitely up there. After Calgary, and Columbus I'd put us up there.

We can't make the playoffs, nor can we suck hard enough to get superstar talent.

Yes, top picks don't guarantee super stars, but it significantly improves the chances of getting one.

Winning meaningless games in March and April has been screwing our picks for a while now. And, the only year we managed to suck hard enough, Boston had our pick.

It's sad that even after 8 years of missing the playoffs, we don't have a #1 C, or #1 D.

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04-07-2012, 02:19 PM
  #94
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Columbus and Calgary say hi. We're not nearly in as bad a shape moving forward as those two.
both teams are in a much worse situation, id say columbus is in a better situation than calgary. how can a team that had two top 10 scorers and having a #1 dman (or #2... but Phaneuf is good enough to be a #1) be one of the worst teams off in the NHL?

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04-07-2012, 02:22 PM
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I agree! how do you fix this?

Lupul ???? Kessel
Kulemin Grabovski Frattin
Kadri Bozak MacArthur
Ashton Colborne Crabb

Schenn Phaneuf
Gardiner Franson
Gunnarson ????

????
Reimer

What assets do the Leafs have, besides their #1 pick, that they can move to fill these gaps?

If they move any players on the line combos above, they will further weaken their organizational depth and have more immediate holes to fill.

The 3rd and 4th lines I have made above are what I see as the best players available in the organization, not necessarily the best player suited for the position he is slotted in.

Where does Burke, or his replacement (), start?

I'd look at Luongo or Schneider to fill that immediate need.

draft grigs/gally that will solve one problem.... and acquire a goalie through UFA i think is crutial in this market... need a top tier goalie but its hard to get someone like that when your team is in such a hole. This team isn't that far away imo

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04-07-2012, 03:28 PM
  #96
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Me an you both. Leaf fans are simply delusional. Leafs have nothing close to Staal, Skinner and Ward or Edmonton's trio of excellence. I love it how the fans point to the future like there are some stars in the making waiting to rescue the Leafs. The Leafs are a bad hockey team. They are definitely in the bottom 5 of the NHL. Perhaps only Calgary is worse off going forward. I look at the Habs and they have Price/Subban and Pacioretty. Even Columbus will probably have Nash and Yakupov going forward. Anaheim with Fowler,Getz,Perry. Isles are stacked with young talent and are going to get better.

Burke has been a collossal failure.
Your delusional if you think it Burkes fault we don'ts have a guys like Staal. Getz and Perry who were drafted in 2003 and 29 teams in the league have nothing like Edmontons trio. also Gardiner could pass Subban next year. And what ****** team is going to give us a Guy like Price. This team is a bit of a mess but 90% of the mess is caused by the GMs before Burke. Burkes 2008 draft first round pick is was one of the top rookies this year and he is letting our other prospects develop in the minors away from this mess of a team.

We need 2-3 more year before you will see his draft picks make an impact on this team and we have 8 first round picks from 2008-2012(counting our high pick this summer)
Yes the guy that keeps trading our picks has 8 first rounders 22years of age or under

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04-07-2012, 04:27 PM
  #97
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After reading some of these comments I believe that Burke has done such a great job he deserves a 5 or 10 year extension.

Please let's have a bit of objectivity and balance when commenting.

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04-07-2012, 04:35 PM
  #98
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Well I wasn't sold on Wilson's style of play and whether or not that would that allow us to keep winning when teams really clamped down and gt defensive. Looks like our high flying style caught up to us once other teams really got serious after the all star break which is nothing new to the way the NHL goes.

Now Carlyle brings in a new more defensive system and we will see which players are willing to play that grind it out style. I am hoping our skill guys will be able to adapt to the new game plan but I am thinking some of them are not ideal for this new game plan which demands strong board play. If we start winning early next year I don't see it changing because Carlyles style imo goes well in the regular season and playoff style games aswell.

I am just hoping for Nash next year and a Schenn that doesn't wiff on passes infront of our goaltender late in the season.

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04-08-2012, 02:01 AM
  #99
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No. But they are in that mix in this league.

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04-08-2012, 05:30 PM
  #100
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Give your heads a shake. They were 6th in the East with the NHL's youngest team and a prospect pool in the top half in the entire NHl and are about to add another top 5 pick.

While things are often never as good as many claim in Toronto, they are never nearly as bad either.

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