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General Stars Talk IV: The Prequel

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Old
01-23-2013, 02:16 PM
  #926
Cin
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What's with all of the Morrow hate? Other than the fact that he goes to the box a little too often. Somebody please enlighten me.

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01-23-2013, 02:36 PM
  #927
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Benn is better at center correct?

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01-23-2013, 02:39 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
Benn is better at center correct?
I don't know that he is better, but since he can play well enough to be a #1 Center it looks as though he will be playing there for the near future at least.

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01-23-2013, 02:40 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
I don't know that he is better, but since he can play well enough to be a #1 Center it looks as though he will be playing there for the near future at least.
Let me rephrase: Is he capable of playing first line center?

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01-23-2013, 02:45 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
Let me rephrase: Is he capable of playing first line center?
Yes.

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01-23-2013, 03:38 PM
  #931
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Would anyone else like to see this added to the GDTs?




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01-23-2013, 04:26 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Cin View Post
What's with all of the Morrow hate? Other than the fact that he goes to the box a little too often. Somebody please enlighten me.
Really?

He can't skate. His stride is labored and lethargic, he has no explosiveness, he can't make quick cuts or changes in direction. This neutralizes his effectiveness as a physical presence and forechecker.

He loses puck battles. Lots of them. This has actually been true for a while but it's not getting any better.

When he does have the puck he makes bad decisions and bad passes. Lately he's got Steve Ott Syndrome where he looks to go backwards with the puck as his first option rather than advancing it. Simple passes are mis-weighted or sent at poor angles.

Putting him in front of the net is a waste of time. The other team's PKers ignore him and it becomes 4 on 4 around the perimeter. When he was at his best he was a threat to score from mid-range using his shot. I haven't seen that in ages.

He can't scale down the lineup because he's not fast enough or good enough defensively to be a checker. 'Leadership' doesn't cut it when it comes to staying on the team. No one has ever claimed Morrow was a vocal leader anyway. I've always believed your Captain has to be one of your team's better players on the ice or they simply won't command respect.

Like Robidas, he must move on to another team that still believes they can get some use out of him. It's time.

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01-23-2013, 05:01 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
Really?

He can't skate. His stride is labored and lethargic, he has no explosiveness, he can't make quick cuts or changes in direction. This neutralizes his effectiveness as a physical presence and forechecker.

He loses puck battles. Lots of them. This has actually been true for a while but it's not getting any better.

When he does have the puck he makes bad decisions and bad passes. Lately he's got Steve Ott Syndrome where he looks to go backwards with the puck as his first option rather than advancing it. Simple passes are mis-weighted or sent at poor angles.

Putting him in front of the net is a waste of time. The other team's PKers ignore him and it becomes 4 on 4 around the perimeter. When he was at his best he was a threat to score from mid-range using his shot. I haven't seen that in ages.

He can't scale down the lineup because he's not fast enough or good enough defensively to be a checker. 'Leadership' doesn't cut it when it comes to staying on the team. No one has ever claimed Morrow was a vocal leader anyway. I've always believed your Captain has to be one of your team's better players on the ice or they simply won't command respect.

Like Robidas, he must move on to another team that still believes they can get some use out of him. It's time.
Not even worth it.

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01-23-2013, 05:36 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by Cin View Post
Not even worth it.
Everything he said was accurate.

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01-23-2013, 05:42 PM
  #935
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Not even worth it.
Do you just not watch our games?

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01-23-2013, 05:54 PM
  #936
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I can see gm joe trading him at the deadline to a cup contending team and calling up vincour to replace him

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01-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #937
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I can see gm joe trading him at the deadline to a cup contending team and calling up vincour to replace him
If he goes I hope Fraser is the call up. The way I see it, you know what Vincour can do. Fraser hasn't ever gotten a chance to show what he can do, and other guys like Chiasson are going to be knocking on the door soon. Its kinda like giving Jordie a shot at the expense of Fistric before Oleksiak and Nemeth are brought up. If Eakin and Smith make up a 3rd line with some scoring potential, you would think Fraser can add more than Garbutt.

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01-23-2013, 06:18 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
If he goes I hope Fraser is the call up. The way I see it, you know what Vincour can do. Fraser hasn't ever gotten a chance to show what he can do, and other guys like Chiasson are going to be knocking on the door soon. Its kinda like giving Jordie a shot at the expense of Fistric before Oleksiak and Nemeth are brought up. If Eakin and Smith make up a 3rd line with some scoring potential, you would think Fraser can add more than Garbutt.
I look at Fraser's opportunity being as a replacement for Ryder if he gets sold off as a rental (which I'm not looking forward to, but we could get a nice return). Fraser's mission on the ice is to score goals, much like Ryder. He's improved defensively this year in the AHL, but you're never going to make him a true checker. He's at the point where he's ready for the NHL if the Stars need him.

Vincour is more of Morrow's replacement on the lower lines. He can skate and forecheck and control the puck with smart plays and give you good defense.

If we end up selling off some of the vets toward the end of this season you could have something like this-

Loui-Benn-Jagr
Whitney-Roy-Fraser
Wandell-Eakin-R.Smith
Vincour-Fiddler-Nystrom

Wandell and Vincour could be interchanged, or Sceviour could be mixed in. Vincour had some good moments last season with Fiddler and Nystrom so I put him with them.

No one is being rushed or put in places to fail in such a scenario. There's still ample veteran protection in that lineup.

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01-23-2013, 06:24 PM
  #939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cin View Post
Not even worth it.
You're the voice of opposition in this case. I agree with pretty much everything piqued said. You can't possibly disagree with all of it, can you?

For a number of years Morrow was my favorite Star, and that was when Modano was still putting up 70 point seasons. But when it's time it's time, and sadly, Morrow's (like Robidas) time seems to have passed. I don't know that he couldn't be somewhat productive on another team and under different circumstances, but given his (former) stature on the team and in the room I just find it hard to believe he will magically regain form. Last season piqued was saying that Morrow couldn't fit in the bottom six for the same reasons he just laid out and I wasn't sure I bought it. I know it's only been three games but it's more of the same with him this year.

On a related note, I would much rather see a guy like Sceviour actually get into games than bring up Vincour to fill that void.

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01-23-2013, 07:04 PM
  #940
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The odd part about all of this is I didn't even raise any concerns with anything he said. You guys can read minds now?

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01-23-2013, 07:10 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by Cin View Post
The odd part about all of this is I didn't even raise any concerns with anything he said. You guys can read minds now?
You chimed in and asked what is everyone's beef with Morrow. A poster quotes you, replies in specific detail, and you reply with a terse "not even worth it". At that point we're left in a position that necessitates mind-reading since you implied it wasn't worth your time to properly respond. I'll reverse my stance now and just assume you agreed with it all.

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01-23-2013, 07:16 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by Cin View Post
The odd part about all of this is I didn't even raise any concerns with anything he said. You guys can read minds now?
How else should we have read "not even worth it" to a well reasoned response by Piqued? Come on man, you're not dumb, you know what that kind of reaction is assumed to represent.

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01-23-2013, 07:27 PM
  #943
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Vincour - Wandell - Garbutt made for one awesome 4th line last year. I love the possibility that that's probably our 5th line now.

Eriksson - Benn - Jagr
Whitney - Roy - Ryder
Sceviour/Nystrom - Eakin - R. Smith (I'd like to see what Sceviour can do here)
Vincour/Wandell/Garbutt - Fiddler - Sceviour/Nystrom

I don't remember having so many bottom 6 options for quite a while.

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01-23-2013, 07:50 PM
  #944
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So before I enter this pit of hell let's actually discuss the role Morrow is expected to play as the captain and a 3rd/4th liner.

He's expected to motivate on the bench, wear down on opponents physically, score occasionally, block shots, punish nefarious hits, establish good communication with the officials, and bring tons of energy to each shift.

Where does he fail in those duties? His communication with officials, as we know seems to be pretty damn terrible. His scoring has dipped. He can be lethargic late into games that have already been lost.

Morrow makes $4.1m/year.

Who's a comparable player to Brenden Morrow? Shane Doan ($4.5m/yr). How do their stats compare?

Doan
200910 Phoenix Coyotes NHL 82 18 37 55 41 3 1 1 2 4
201011 Phoenix Coyotes NHL 72 20 40 60 67 4 3 2 5 6
201112 Phoenix Coyotes NHL 79 22 28 50 48 16 5 4 9 41

Morrow
200809 Dallas Stars NHL 18 5 10 15 49
200910 Dallas Stars NHL 76 20 26 46 69
201011 Dallas Stars NHL 82 33 23 56 76
201112 Dallas Stars NHL 57 11 15 26 97

I'm only taking stats back to 08 because that's when the ACL injury happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
He can't skate. His stride is labored and lethargic, he has no explosiveness, he can't make quick cuts or changes in direction. This neutralizes his effectiveness as a physical presence and forechecker.
The guy had a torn ACL, so returning to full on power, and explosive speed is out of the question. For the style of game that he's expected to play it doesn't matter. He's a fantastic forechecker (one man forecheck at times) and he hit's like a truck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
He loses puck battles. Lots of them. This has actually been true for a while but it's not getting any better.

When he does have the puck he makes bad decisions and bad passes. Lately he's got Steve Ott Syndrome where he looks to go backwards with the puck as his first option rather than advancing it. Simple passes are mis-weighted or sent at poor angles.
I'm going to attribute this to his injury slowing him down, and him NOT actually being a 1st/2nd line player. He hasn't been able to keep up with players like Eriksson or Ribeiro for puck possession because he can't play that style of game anymore. If you watch how he's played with Fiddler and Nystrom, you can see that they gel very well, cycle the puck deep when they have to, and Morrow is always on the boards fast and strong. I've seen him win quite a few scrums in the corner this season. Last season and the season before that? Definitely wasn't utilized correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
Putting him in front of the net is a waste of time. The other team's PKers ignore him and it becomes 4 on 4 around the perimeter. When he was at his best he was a threat to score from mid-range using his shot. I haven't seen that in ages.
I'm not quite sure how we can effectively know this when our PP as a whole is atrocious. Morrow has proven all throughout his career that he can deflect pucks very well. If we can actually employ a strategy that retains puck possession, Morrow is big enough in front of the net to cause a lot of damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
No one has ever claimed Morrow was a vocal leader anyway. I've always believed your Captain has to be one of your team's better players on the ice or they simply won't command respect.
I'm not sure where this is coming from. Morrow is respected around the league and he's respected within the national team as well. His career numbers are respectable. His hit's are respectable. He isn't a dirty player. Plus, players know he'll throw down for some shady ****. On top of that, players rally around Morrow whenever he sees success. See the last time the Stars were in the playoffs for this one. His stats alone from that year merit enough.

We haven't been to the playoffs in a while so we really have no clue what he'd look like in them now, but to just cast him aside as somebody in the same boat as ROBIDAS is flat out insane. This guy has given everything in his body for the organization, and people outside of this board actually do respect it.

You may not see everything that he brings to the table, but trust me there's a lot. Is he a shadow of his former self? Sure, but not enough to amount him to a throwaway trade.

Don't think the hate towards him needs to be as strong as it is for Robidas, and that's where I'm coming from. He's only just now being utilized correctly.

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01-23-2013, 08:19 PM
  #945
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Using the 2008 playoffs as any kind of argument about what he brings to the table now is disingenuous at best. He was 28 during those playoffs and had a 32 goal, 74 point regular season - he's 34 now. But yes, the team rallied around him then.

Morrow has always been decent, not great, at tipping pucks on the PP. As previously mentioned though he was manning the front of the net and tipping pucks on a rotational basis; he used to spend PP's winning puck battles behind the net/in the corners, occupying the crease, and opening up for the 10-12 foot one timer. He now has trouble winning those puck battles, has all but given up trying to score even from mid range, and does a lot more crease-standing than anything else - he's too stagnant.

The issue of missing sticks on passes, making ill advised east/west passes, and playing the puck backwards instead of pushing toward the opposition's net (likely because he rightly lacks confidence in his passing abilities at this point in time) are all legitimate concerns for an NHL player.

Morrow has given a lot to this organization. More specifically though, he seemed to be self-motivated to succeed and thus his career successes were as much (or more) for himself than being generous to his NHL team. Teams are obligated to compensate players monetarily for their contributions. To that end Morrow has been well compensated. I don't think it's wrong or cold-hearted in the least to honestly assess a player's ability to help your team on an ongoing basis.

Cin, you say it's close to blasphemy to put Robidas and Morrow in the same category yet are quick to establish that what is expected of Morrow is not what once was. In Robidas' defense he's being leaned on to play over 20 minutes per game and in all situations. If he had been relegated to a similar role to Morrow, which would translate to probably 16 minutes a night, it would be easier to stomach his deficiencies, but it wouldn't keep us from seeing that there are better options out there.

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01-23-2013, 08:24 PM
  #946
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Using the 2008 playoffs as any kind of argument about what he brings to the table now is disingenuous at best. He was 28 during those playoffs and had a 32 goal, 74 point regular season - he's 34 now. But yes, the team rallied around him then.

Morrow has always been decent, not great, at tipping pucks on the PP. As previously mentioned though he was manning the front of the net and tipping pucks on a rotational basis; he used to spend PP's winning puck battles behind the net/in the corners, occupying the crease, and opening up for the 10-12 foot one timer. He now has trouble winning those puck battles, has all but given up trying to score even from mid range, and does a lot more crease-standing than anything else - he's too stagnant.

The issue of missing sticks on passes, making ill advised east/west passes, and playing the puck backwards instead of pushing toward the opposition's net (likely because he rightly lacks confidence in his passing abilities at this point in time) are all legitimate concerns for an NHL player.

Morrow has given a lot to this organization. More specifically though, he seemed to be self-motivated to succeed and thus his career successes were as much (or more) for himself than being generous to his NHL team. Teams are obligated to compensate players monetarily for their contributions. To that end Morrow has been well compensated. I don't think it's wrong or cold-hearted in the least to honestly assess a player's ability to help your team on an ongoing basis.

Cin, you say it's close to blasphemy to put Robidas and Morrow in the same category yet are quick to establish that what is expected of Morrow is not what once was. In Robidas' defense he's being leaned on to play over 20 minutes per game and in all situations. If he had been relegated to a similar role to Morrow, which would translate to probably 16 minutes a night, it would be easier to stomach his deficiencies, but it wouldn't keep us from seeing that there are better options out there.
Valid points, I just see a lot of what you're saying coming down to coaching deficiencies as well.(Systems employed, players being out of place, etc.) Agree to disagree. I still think he's got some in the tank to give back.

In reference to the bolded. Can you provide examples?

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01-23-2013, 08:45 PM
  #947
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In reference to the bolded. Can you provide examples?
I would have to know his inner thoughts to give examples. This just comes down to how I see the world and why people are motivated to do what it is they spend their time and effort doing.

Morrow played his heart out but I think it would be disingenuous to say he did so with no desire for personal gain. His motivation, even if it was ultimately that he wanted to be a winner and Cup champ, was in no small part financially driven, nor does his desire to be a Cup champ preclude that from being for personal reasons (pride, for example).

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01-23-2013, 08:50 PM
  #948
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I would have to know his inner thoughts to give examples. This just comes down to how I see the world and why people are motivated to do what it is they spend their time and effort doing.

Morrow played his heart out but I think it would be disingenuous to say he did so with no desire for personal gain. His motivation, even if it was ultimately that he wanted to be a winner and Cup champ, was in no small part financially driven, nor does his desire to be a Cup champ preclude that from being for personal reasons (pride, for example).
So is this based off of his lethargic attitude at times? If so, then fair enough.

I think you just summed up every professional athlete as well.

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01-23-2013, 09:37 PM
  #949
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Morrow's self motivation to play his heart out for Team Canada at the Olympics and then return to Dallas and mail it in the rest of the year is an example of his selfishness.

His penalty parade last year put a bad pk team in a bind throughout the season. He was like top five that year in 2 minute minors taken. I wonder how many goals Dallas gave up while their "captain" sat in the box because of stupid selfish play.

And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what kind of leadership Morrow's shown since those playoffs in 2008. Nothing about his play or his off ice comments have shown any real leadership in four plus years.

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01-23-2013, 10:23 PM
  #950
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Well he "led" the charge against Avery in the locker room, I know that much.

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