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2012 NHL Entry Draft Talk 8.0

View Poll Results: what to do with the #3 pick?
Trade up to get Grigorenko (for #3 pick + player) 15 10.64%
Draft Forsberg 35 24.82%
Draft Galchenyuk 83 58.87%
Draft Murray 4 2.84%
other (specify) 4 2.84%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:01 PM
  #151
Em Ancien
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Calling it a fail tank when any player we pick likely projects as our best player in the future kind of fails to grasp what a fail tank is.

You can call it a fail tank in 5 years if said player isn't more than a decent core player moving forward.

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04-07-2012, 02:10 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis Keon View Post

I wouldn't, at least for Dumba.(Dumba would not be a fail tank...he would be a good choice).

How often does a 17 year old defenseman damn near lead their team in scoring? Not very often. Ryan Murphy was close, as was Ryan Ellis. Doughty did it in his predraft year and Bogosian did it in his draft year. Then, from what I can see, you have to go back to like '90.

Defensively, it was Dumba's job to shut down Grigorenko and Forsberg at the Ivan Hlinka's, and apparently he did a great job of it. You wouldn't give that task to Ellis or Murphy.

Add to that his passion/drive. The kid's a beauty and I'd love to have him. You might screw him up by bringing him up as a young 18 year old, but give him another year or two in the dub and I don't see how he won't be an impact player in all facets (offensively, defensively, physically, and in the room).
On board for...DUMBA!!!!
(I predict Dumba will go top 5 overall).

I'm hoping for Dumba.

Grigorenko could be a homerun (huge maybe) or a hit or a stolen base only?...not a grand slam.

Forsberg could be a double or a triple or a hit...could be a smart choice, but...maybe not a homerun.

Galchenyuk...Toews potential? or...overrated 2nd line center...? I like everything I read about him, but still some question marks...

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:12 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Calling it a fail tank when any player we pick likely projects as our best player in the future kind of fails to grasp what a fail tank is.

You can call it a fail tank in 5 years if said player isn't more than a decent core player moving forward.
Well without the benefit of hindsight, from what we know according to scouts, Dumba isn't even the highest rated defenseman in the draft. And even if he was, why would we want an other Subban? Is he getting old and we need to replace him? Let's take someone that can complement his style instead on the first pairing, and that would be Murray or Ceci (if we trade down) for me.

And that's not even the point I was trying to make with "failed Tank", we need a potential superstar and the only players fitting the bill are Yakupov and Grigorenko, period. This is our best shot at getting one, such opportunity won't come around until maybe an other decade.

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:12 PM
  #154
Erik Estrada
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Top players drafted at #3 (1994-2007)

Defencemen (no franchise D)
Brad Stuart
Jay Bouwmeester
Aki Berg

Forwards
Jonathan Toews
Marian Gaborik
Henrik Sedin

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:15 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Well without the benefit of hindsight, from what we know according to scouts, Dumba isn't even the highest rated defenseman in the draft. And even if he was, why would we want an other Subban? Is he getting old and we need to replace him? Let's take someone that can complement his style instead on the first pairing, and that would be Murray or Ceci (if we trade down) for me.

And that's not even the point I was trying to make with "failed Tank", we need a potential superstar and the only players fitting the bill are Yakupov and Grigorenko, period. This is our best shot at getting one, such opportunity won't come around until maybe an other decade.
Well, if they're both gone and/or any player available doesn't project as a superstar player, but one of D stands out as a clear cut better player going forward according to the scouting staff, regardless of his style, what's the argument about?

We can all speculate and project, but we're not working with the material they have. It's fun to discuss, but when the chips are down, I'll defer to the professionals here.

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:18 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Top players drafted at #3 (1994-2007)

Defencemen (no franchise D)
Brad Stuart
Jay Bouwmeester
Aki Berg
Forwards
Jonathan Toews
Marian Gaborik
Henrik Sedin
Wow. There was a piece on TSN a while back (I think) where they were noting the difference success rates for D taken top 5 vs the forwards and it supported this. All kids are a gamble but defenseman noticabley worse, and goalies worse yet. Although Doughty, Pieterangelo, would be an exception if Bogo had not been injured. Is there a Doughty this year?

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:19 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Top players drafted at #3 (1994-2007)

Defencemen (no franchise D)
Brad Stuart
Jay Bouwmeester
Aki Berg

Forwards
Jonathan Toews
Marian Gaborik
Henrik Sedin
That's a terrible way of looking at it.

Suter was available (and the top D) in 2003 and lasted till 7.

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04-07-2012, 02:20 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by nuck View Post
Wow. There was a piece on TSN a while back (I think) where they were noting the difference success rates for D taken top 5 vs the forwards and it supported this. All kids are a gamble but defenseman noticabley worse, and goalies worse yet. Although Doughty, Pieterangelo, would be an exception if Bogo had not been injured. Is there a Doughty this year?
No one considered as highly as Doughty this season. Remember there was debate if Stamkos or Doughty should go first, which is completely ridiculous with the benefit of hindsight.

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04-07-2012, 02:22 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Well, if they're both gone and/or any player available doesn't project as a superstar player, but one of D stands out as a clear cut better player going forward according to the scouting staff, regardless of his style, what's the argument about?

We can all speculate and project, but we're not working with the material they have. It's fun to discuss, but when the chips are down, I'll defer to the professionals here.
There's no argument, really.

I was just implying that with Grig slipping away we have missed a giant opportunity for fill an organizational need since... forever. If he is picked by Edmonton and Columbus goes for Yakupov meaning both are gone, so be it but the point remains that it would be a failed Tank for me. At which point I trust our scouts entirely and don't really care who we draft.

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04-07-2012, 02:25 PM
  #160
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Obviously, Timmins has been seen or heard of being in many arenas watching the anticipated top picks play the game. Regardless of where we finish in the top 4, if he's available, I think Timmins might take a chance on Galchenyuk. There may be some reservations in light of his injury this year, however, there is no denying his presence on the ice, ability to go to the net, and his strength. He has good size and will likely grow another inch or two and fill out nicely. And of the top centers, he is the closest to being North American. I suppose if the Habs get to choose between one of the Russians, this thought is thrown out the window.

I would be quite happy with Galchenyuk, Nieve, Hudon and Bussieres. I would like to ask if anyone has had the opportunity to watch 'Boo' Nieve play for Kent and what he brings to the table beside the fact that he is a centerman and has size. I can hear the Bell Centre now with a rain of 'Boos' coming down! Thoughts on him or any of the others I have mentioned. Booooooooo......Boooooooo!!

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04-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
That's a terrible way of looking at it.

Suter was available (and the top D) in 2003 and lasted till 7.
It's not a terrible way of looking at it. It's reality. Scouts have trouble differentiating a D with impressive attributes with a franchise D.

Suter's not even the Top D on his team. He went 7. Shea Weber went 49 in that same draft. No one would ever take Suter over Weber.

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04-07-2012, 02:30 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post

Dumba is far more composed and defensively responsible than Subban (and Beaulieu) at the same age, for what it's worth.
The more I read about Dumba the more I want to see him in a HABS' jersey... I'm going to hope our Habs have a chance to select him. (meaning...I don't want the Oilers to take him).

I can see Oilers deciding between Dumba and Grigorenko...

All the talk about Murray...but Dumba is my guy.

There will be so much heart on our habs D-CORPS with guys like Subban, Gorges, and Dumba...all heart, energy, grit (and of course Subban and Dumba have loads of skill).

Strong defense (and a hot goalie) + heart/determination (and playing well through injuries) wins you Cups. No Crosby, no Stamkos...build a strong defense around your star goalie...IMO. (Dumba's my guy).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 04-07-2012 at 02:36 PM.
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Old
04-07-2012, 02:30 PM
  #163
Em Ancien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
It's not a terrible way of looking at it. It's reality. Scouts have trouble differentiating a D with impressive attributes with a franchise D.

Suter's not even the Top D on his team. He went 7. Shea Weber went 49 in that same draft. No one would ever take Suter over Weber.
You took a single pick, without context. That's a terrible way of judging things.

Pietrangelo was picked what, 4th? Is that such a far cry from 3rd? Was he available at 3?

If you have such little faith in the scouting staff, why does it matter what the previous history is like, might as well take central scouting's rankings and throw a coin.

And are you arguing Suter is not a franchise D? Seriously...

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04-07-2012, 02:34 PM
  #164
Erik Estrada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
You took a single pick, without context. That's a terrible way of judging things.

Pietrangelo was picked what, 4th? Is that such a far cry from 3rd? Was he available at 3?

If you have such little faith in the scouting staff, why does it matter what the previous history is like, might as well take central scouting's rankings and throw a coin.
Why don't you do the same exercise with pick number 2 and 4 for the same years. Without even looking at which D's were drafted at number 4 during that time period, I can tell you there's Pietrangelo and not much else.

Scouts have a terrible track record picking franchise Ds in the Top-5. A huge chunk of franchise Fs were picked Top-5.

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04-07-2012, 02:36 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
The more I read about Dumba the more I want to see him in a HABS' jersey... I'm going to hope our Habs have a chance to select him. (meaning...I don't want the Oilers to take him).

I can see Oilers deciding between Dumba and Grigorenko...

All the talk about Murray...but Dumba is my guy.

There will be so much heart on our habs D-CORPS with guys like Subban, Gorges, and Dumba...all heart, energy, grit (and of course Subban and Dumba have loads of skill).

Heart/determination and playing (through injuries) wins you Cups
.
And superstars like Grigorenko don't? Are you actually implying Dumba is the second best player in this draft? I can't tell with your cheerleader-type rants about him.

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04-07-2012, 02:39 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
You took a single pick, without context. That's a terrible way of judging things.

Pietrangelo was picked what, 4th? Is that such a far cry from 3rd? Was he available at 3?

If you have such little faith in the scouting staff, why does it matter what the previous history is like, might as well take central scouting's rankings and throw a coin.

And are you arguing Suter is not a franchise D? Seriously...
Well, if he was picked fourth, of course he was available at third, innit ?

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04-07-2012, 02:40 PM
  #167
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I'm not 100% sure but i think Mr Hab likes Dumba and would be happy with Dumba as our pick

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04-07-2012, 02:44 PM
  #168
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Well, if he was picked fourth, of course he was available at third, innit ?
That was his point, but really that's more of a scouting issue than what the original point alluded to. Assuming you don't have the benefit of hindsight, and the draft is what it is (without taking in consideration the fact that Pietrangelo was picked 4th hence he was available at 3), in the top3, taking a forward will statistically give you a chance at selecting a better player than taking a defenseman.

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04-07-2012, 02:45 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Why don't you do the same exercise with pick number 2 and 4 for the same years. Without even looking at which D's were drafted at number 4 during that time period, I can tell you there's Pietrangelo and not much else.

Scouts have a terrible track record picking franchise Ds in the Top-5. A huge chunk of franchise Fs were picked Top-5.
I don't judge players based on trends, but based on their own abilities. But saying 'terrible track record' when you're ignoring that Hall of Famers like Pronger and Niedermayer came from the top 5 is kind of out there.

A lot of the most promising young defensemen are high picks.

You're basically scouting players based on other players' success and failures, that's just not a smart way to go about things.

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04-07-2012, 02:46 PM
  #170
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I'm not 100% sure but i think Mr Hab likes Dumba and would be happy with Dumba as our pick
Explain...

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04-07-2012, 02:46 PM
  #171
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Well, if he was picked fourth, of course he was available at third, innit ?
I thought we were friends MacB.

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04-07-2012, 02:46 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
You took a single pick, without context. That's a terrible way of judging things.

Pietrangelo was picked what, 4th? Is that such a far cry from 3rd? Was he available at 3?

If you have such little faith in the scouting staff, why does it matter what the previous history is like, might as well take central scouting's rankings and throw a coin.

And are you arguing Suter is not a franchise D? Seriously...
Sutter's one of the Top defensive Ds in the league, but having watched lots of Nashville games in the past couple of years I can tell you Weber's superior to him in every way.

What does it matter what previous history is like? You want that type of hubris from your scouting staff? I expect the scouting staff to factor in risk of every kind when they pick a player. Drafting's an imperfect science. You hope they'll use history as a guide to gauge risk factors. Ultra-hyped Ds in their draft year have been poor bets more often than not.

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04-07-2012, 02:50 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post

And superstars like Grigorenko don't? Are you actually implying Dumba is the second best player in this draft? I can't tell with your cheerleader-type rants about him.

Grigorenko: superstar? from what I read...star potential superstar could be stretching it. I'll trust Timmins of course...I just hope Timmins has seen lots and lots of Dumba.

Dumba is top 5 overall and maybe even top 3 overall potential in this draft, imo. I'd take Dumba ahead of Murray. And yes there's a chance Edmonton takes Dumba 2nd overall. June 22 or 23??, we'll find out!!!!

Dumba could be something in between Subban and Doughty.
Don't tell me you don't want that.

Dumba and Galchenyuk are my guys.

Grigorenko: I do like the star maybe superstar potential but too much of the ''Russian Roulette'' factor for me...

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04-07-2012, 02:50 PM
  #174
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Any iformation about Emil Lundberg ? kind of player ? skillset ?

A big 6'4 209 lbs swedish forward who could be draft in the 2 round.

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04-07-2012, 02:54 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Grigorenko: superstar? from what I read...star potential superstar could be stretching it. I'll trust Timmins of course...I just hope Timmins has seen lots and lots of Dumba.

Dumba is top 5 overall and maybe even top 3 overall potential in this draft, imo. I'd take Dumba ahead of Murray. And yes there's a chance Edmonton takes Dumba 2nd overall. June 22 or 23??, we'll find out!!!!

Dumba could be something in between Subban and Doughty.
Don't tell me you don't want that.

Dumba and Galchenyuk are my guys.

Grigorenko: I do like the star maybe superstar potential but too much of the ''Russian Roulette'' factor for me...
I see. Well I guess that's fair.. this draft can't come soon enough. *looks for the >> FF button on the remote to skip the playoffs*

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