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2012 NHL Entry Draft Talk 8.0

View Poll Results: what to do with the #3 pick?
Trade up to get Grigorenko (for #3 pick + player) 15 10.64%
Draft Forsberg 35 24.82%
Draft Galchenyuk 83 58.87%
Draft Murray 4 2.84%
other (specify) 4 2.84%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-07-2012, 01:55 PM
  #176
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Sutter's one of the Top defensive Ds in the league, but having watched lots of Nashville games in the past couple of years I can tell you Weber's superior to him in every way.
What does Weber have to do with anything? You're saying getting one of top defensive Ds in the league that puts up close to 40 points on average per year at #3 isn't good? What's the matter with you?

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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
What does it matter what previous history is like? You want that type of hubris from your scouting staff? I expect the scouting staff to factor in risk of every kind when they pick a player. Drafting's an imperfect science. You hope they'll use history as a guide to gauge risk factors. Ultra-hyped Ds in their draft year have been poor bets more often than not.
If Timmins can find Price in 2005, then McD and Pacioretty amongst the players available in 2007, why can't he find the better guy amongst those available at our spot this year, regardless of position?

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Old
04-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #177
Artie
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I thought we were friends MacB.
all is fair in love and war

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Old
04-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #178
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
If Timmins can find Price in 2005, then McD and Pacioretty amongst the players available in 2007, why can't he find the better guy amongst those available at our spot this year, regardless of position?
That makes sense logically.

I think a lot of us just have this mental barrier that prevents us from seeing it though, since the pick is the highest we've had since longer than most of us were alive. We're just overthinking it like crazy.

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Old
04-07-2012, 01:58 PM
  #179
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I'm not 100% sure but i think Mr Hab likes Dumba and would be happy with Dumba as our pick
Grigorenko: I like his star/superstar potential a la Malkin?? sure, but...some scout(s) compared him to Viktor Kozlov...yuck. Russian Roulette with Grigs...

Galchenyuk: I like everything I read about him, still...some small question marks... I do like the Toews comparison though...

Forsberg: smart choice maybe but wouldn't really excite me that much but might be a very safe/smart choice...

Dumba: I would brag that our D-Corps could be one of the best in the NHL for many years IF we draft Dumba...Subban, Dumba, Gorges, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Ellis, Emelin...GREAT/SOLID D-CORPS.(Markov gets re-injured again, Markov retires, Diaz gone, Weber gone).


Murray: I like Murray also but is he a Redden? S.Niedermayer? Ray Bourque???!! McDonagh? safe #3 dman?


I'd flip a coin between Galchenyuk and Grigorenko (Russian roulette or Belarussian/American roulette), but would lean towards Dumba.



p.s.: does anyone here know if TIMMINS is high on Dumba? (any quotes...thanks).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 04-07-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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Old
04-07-2012, 01:59 PM
  #180
Genghis Keon
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Well without the benefit of hindsight, from what we know according to scouts, Dumba isn't even the highest rated defenseman in the draft. And even if he was, why would we want an other Subban? Is he getting old and we need to replace him? Let's take someone that can complement his style instead on the first pairing, and that would be Murray or Ceci (if we trade down) for me.
Redline, McKeens, and Craig Button all rank Dumba as their highest rated defenseman. And why would we want another Subban? I don't know, maybe because he's good. Subban can play upwards of 30 minutes a game if we need it. If we have two, we can have a Subban out there all the time. If the other Subban is a better version of the one we have, so much the better.

Quote:
And that's not even the point I was trying to make with "failed Tank", we need a potential superstar and the only players fitting the bill are Yakupov and Grigorenko, period. This is our best shot at getting one, such opportunity won't come around until maybe an other decade.
Why can't Dumba (or anyone else) be a superstar? Because you arbitrarily say they can't? Dumba's put up points wherever he's played, he's shutdown potential superstar Grigorenko, he has fantastic physical tools, a ridiculous and infectious passion for the game, great drive and work ethic, and proven leadership abilities. You don't have to call him a potential superstar, but you can't deny he's a potential impact player, a guy with game changing abilities.

I'm not even saying we have to draft Dumba. It's just that after following the draft since '93, closely since 2000 (when I found Hockey's Future), I think it's ridiculous to be so dismissive of players and so caught up in "consensus" rankings.

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:03 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Genghis Keon View Post
Redline, McKeens, and Craig Button all rank Dumba as their highest rated defenseman. And why would we want another Subban? I don't know, maybe because he's good. Subban can play upwards of 30 minutes a game if we need it. If we have two, we can have a Subban out there all the time. If the other Subban is a better version of the one we have, so much the better.



Why can't Dumba (or anyone else) be a superstar? Because you arbitrarily say they can't? Dumba's put up points wherever he's played, he's shutdown potential superstar Grigorenko, he has fantastic physical tools, a ridiculous and infectious passion for the game, great drive and work ethic, and proven leadership abilities. You don't have to call him a potential superstar, but you can't deny he's a potential impact player, a guy with game changing abilities.

I'm not even saying we have to draft Dumba. It's just that after following the draft since '93, closely since 2000 (when I found Hockey's Future), I think it's ridiculous to be so dismissive of players and so caught up in "consensus" rankings.
Yeah I can't disagree with anything you wrote. I just hope that our pick is Grigorenko and that he comes as advertised: legit franchise center. If Grigorenko and Yakupov are selected before us, then sure... Dumba or whoever it is then.

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:03 PM
  #182
Slew Foots
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It's easier to project an 18-year old forward's long-term potential than it is to project an 18-year old d-man or goalie's long-term potential. D-men take longer to fully develop and usually peak later than forwards. Accordingly, it's usually safer to pick a forward with a top 5 pick.

If we look at elite players in the NHL, it's much more rare to find elite forwards drafted outside of the top 10 than it is to find elite d-men or goalies.

Guys like Murray and Dumba will likely be very good NHL players, but it's entirely possible that someone else from this draft year emerges in 5 years as being the best D-man of the crop, because D-men still have a long way to develop at this age, making scouts' evaluation of D-men at this age very difficult.

The Habs will have a rare top 4 pick this coming draft, and I hope they take this rare occasion to draft the best available forward, because we desperately need skilled forwards, and history has shown that drafting a forward with a top 5 pick is often simply the safest thing to do.

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04-07-2012, 02:08 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
It's easier to project an 18-year old forward's long-term potential than it is to project an 18-year old d-man or goalie's long-term potential. D-men take longer to fully develop and usually peak later than forwards. Accordingly, it's usually safer to pick a forward with a top 5 pick.

If we look at elite players in the NHL, it's much more rare to find elite forwards drafted outside of the top 10 than it is to find elite d-men or goalies.

Guys like Murray and Dumba will likely be very good NHL players, but it's entirely possible that someone else from this draft year emerges in 5 years as being the best D-man of the crop, because D-men still have a long way to develop at this age, making scouts' evaluation of D-men at this age very difficult.

The Habs will have a rare top 4 pick this coming draft, and I hope they take this rare occasion to draft the best available forward, because we desperately need skilled forwards, and history has shown that drafting a forward with a top 5 pick is often simply the safest thing to do.

Given the lanscape from 2-6 in this draft, I think it's highly unlikely the Habs take a d-man unless they have serious concerns about Forsberg Galchenyuk and Grigorenko.

I think Galchenyuk and Forsberg are 1 and 1a on the Habs list.

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:13 PM
  #184
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Drafting one of Yakupov, Forsberg, or possibly Galchenyuk if he decides to play on the wing could be the best thing to happen to Plekanec.

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04-07-2012, 02:18 PM
  #185
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Given the lanscape from 2-6 in this draft, I think it's highly unlikely the Habs take a d-man unless they have serious concerns about Forsberg Galchenyuk and Grigorenko.

I think Galchenyuk and Forsberg are 1 and 1a on the Habs list.
It might play out like this (1 possibility)...

1. Yakupov (Columbus)
2. Grigorenko (Edm)
3. Galchenyuk (?)
4. Dumba or Forsberg or Murray (our Habs)


Unless of course Edmonton takes Dumba or Murray..., then we have a shot at Grigo or Galchy... I think I'd be happy with any of the three (Grigs, Galchenyuk, or Dumba).

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:24 PM
  #186
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Habs are 4th in the east in goals against and 14th in goals for. Why draft a defenceman?

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04-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #187
Erik Estrada
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Last edited by Erik Estrada: 04-07-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Old
04-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by SB164 View Post
Drafting one of Yakupov, Forsberg, or possibly Galchenyuk if he decides to play on the wing could be the best thing to happen to Plekanec.
Just give Pleks one of Cole or Pacioretty and everything will be fine.
We know what DD can do with Cole and Pacioretty, but he has to also learn how to play with other players...sometimes.


Next season...Pleks will have more choices 9if the coach will do it/tinkre a bit with lines)...Gallagher??, Gionta, one of Cole or Pacioretty. Maybe Bourque...?

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:29 PM
  #189
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Habs are 4th in the east in goals against and 14th in goals for. Why draft a defenceman?
Only if he's the BPA of course. It's a strange year...there are question marks all over the place. Because of that, there's a chance the BPA at our spot will be a defenceman. If it's the case, we have to select him. Maybe it would cause a log jam in the future, but that's a good problem to have. It isn't that hard to trade quality defencemen...

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04-07-2012, 02:31 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Just give Pleks one of Cole or Pacioretty and everything will be fine.
We know what DD can do with Cole and Pacioretty, but he has to also learn how to play with other players...sometimes.


Next season...Pleks will have more choices 9if the coach will do it/tinkre a bit with lines)...Gallagher??, Gionta, one of Cole or Pacioretty. Maybe Bourque...?
Thing is, that Cole, DD and Pacioretty line is so dominant! It's kind of hard to break them up. But next season, I expect Bourque to be wayyyy better, and Gionta will be back. Things should be better from the get-go.

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04-07-2012, 02:38 PM
  #191
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Fairly certain at this point that we will select Galchenyuk as long as the Leafs dont leap frog us.

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04-07-2012, 03:02 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
It might play out like this (1 possibility)...

1. Yakupov (Columbus)
2. Grigorenko (Edm)
3. Galchenyuk (?)
4. Dumba or Forsberg or Murray (our Habs)


Unless of course Edmonton takes Dumba or Murray..., then we have a shot at Grigo or Galchy... I think I'd be happy with any of the three (Grigs, Galchenyuk, or Dumba).
I think the odds are very high that Edmonton takes a d-man at #2-3-4. I heard they are very high on Dumba.

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04-07-2012, 03:04 PM
  #193
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Fairly certain at this point that we will select Galchenyuk as long as the Leafs dont leap frog us.
Him and Dumba are the most Timmins-like type picks.

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04-07-2012, 03:05 PM
  #194
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Any iformation about Emil Lundberg ? kind of player ? skillset ?

A big 6'4 209 lbs swedish forward who could be draft in the 2 round.
A bit of sleeper. Like Slepyshev. Plays very well for a tier-2 team. High scoring for a rookie.

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04-07-2012, 03:11 PM
  #195
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My list looks like this..
1 - Nail Yakupov
2 - Mikhail Grigorenko
3 - Alex Galchenyuk
4 - Filip Forsberg
5 - Jacob Trouba
6 - Matthew Dumba
7 - Trade down get Collberg
8 - Trade down get Aberg.

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Old
04-07-2012, 03:48 PM
  #196
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As I recall, teams can also draft by team needs. Look at the 2010 draft, where Johansen, Nino and Skinner all bumped Fowler and Gormley down to the 12th and 13th spot. It changes every year, we never know. Maybe Edmonton will go for a defenseman at 2nd overall leaving us the entire choice of Grigo-Galchenyuk-Forsberg to pick.

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04-07-2012, 03:53 PM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabba11 View Post
As I recall, teams can also draft by team needs. Look at the 2010 draft, where Johansen, Nino and Skinner all bumped Fowler and Gormley down to the 12th and 13th spot. It changes every year, we never know. Maybe Edmonton will go for a defenseman at 2nd overall leaving us the entire choice of Grigo-Galchenyuk-Forsberg to pick.
As much as delusional Edmonton fans try to make you believe they will take Grigorenko; he's not the clear BPA. Edmonton isn't going to take a risk. They will take Murray, fill a need, get a player.

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04-07-2012, 03:55 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Jabba11 View Post
As I recall, teams can also draft by team needs. Look at the 2010 draft, where Johansen, Nino and Skinner all bumped Fowler and Gormley down to the 12th and 13th spot. It changes every year, we never know. Maybe Edmonton will go for a defenseman at 2nd overall leaving us the entire choice of Grigo-Galchenyuk-Forsberg to pick.
They were not necessarily drafting for needs... They just had different list with their BPA.

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04-07-2012, 03:56 PM
  #199
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p.s.: does anyone here know if TIMMINS is high on Dumba? (any quotes...thanks).
No, Timmins is high on life.

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Old
04-07-2012, 04:10 PM
  #200
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Argument for Forsberg

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