Also WS in regards to your drafting analogy. You are more likely to strike out drafting by need than drafting by BPA. BPA is more secure. We've been "drafting" by need for GM for quite sometime and it hasn't got the team anywhere significant for quite some time.
The point whitesnake is that you won't know who is better if you do not extend an interview to all the candidates. I want the best of all possible candidates, not the best from a limited pool. It may very well be that the one from the limited pool is the best of all, but you would only know so by interviewing all. Molson says he wants to return to excellence, but if he wants to do so, he better look at all possible options and not just a specific range of options amongst all possible.
If he doesn't look at Fenton, Nill, Benning and Botterill, Molson would have failed in this portion of team building in my eyes.
The habs need to look at all candiates; bilingual or not!
The point, Andy, is that you don't know if the team extends an interview to all the candidates; and you do not know whether the people approached either accepted or declined the invitation.
The point, Andy, is that you don't know if the team extends an interview to all the candidates; and you do not know whether the people approached either accepted or declined the invitation.
The team hasn't done or said anything to suggest that they would. All we've heard from guys like Dreger, Friedman, Lebrun are francophones and there haven't been any suggestions from either of these that Molson is look beyond the bilingual requirement.
The team hasn't done or said anything to suggest that they would. All we've heard from guys like Dreger, Friedman, Lebrun are francophones and there haven't been any suggestions from either of these that Molson is look beyond the bilingual requirement.
Geoff Molson said he would look for the best man. Also Friedman told us that there is someone currently employed on a playoff team that's interested & the Habs would likely wait a few weeks to interview him. That guy is likely uni-lingual.
It looks like this could drag on for up to 3 weeks, depending on how far that team/GM in question goes into the playoffs.
Unless they decide they already found their guy before that, of course.
Geoff Molson said he would look for the best man. Also Friedman told us that there is someone currently employed on a playoff team that's interested & the Habs would likely wait a few weeks to interview him. That guy is likely uni-lingual.
It looks like this could drag on for up to 3 weeks, depending on how far that team/GM in question goes into the playoffs.
Unless they decide they already found their guy before that, of course.
Geoff Molson said he would look for the best man. Also Friedman told us that there is someone currently employed on a playoff team that's interested & the Habs would likely wait a few weeks to interview him. That guy is likely uni-lingual.
It looks like this could drag on for up to 3 weeks, depending on how far that team/GM in question goes into the playoffs.
Unless they decide they already found their guy before that, of course.
But then when you don't limit yourselves, and you see that the only name's that is being talked about is Jim Nill and yet the guy is probably not going anywhere....what really are you missing? Yes, I have Jim Benning on my list. How is Benning though that much better than Bergevin? Who else are we missing? Yes, there are surely unknown guys from our side that we are missing....but who says there are not unknown bilingual guys we are missing as well?
At the end of the day, I don't think we know all is going on.
But the point is, if Brisson and Brisebois are out, and then say Bergevin also doesn't fit, and Savard wants to stay in Pittsburgh, then what? Are we left to hiring a guy like Martin again? Considering we're limiting ourselves to bilinguals?
I agree though, that there's some interesting bilingual guys. Bergevin is my top choice because he was part of such a successful rebuild, and has been around smart hockey mind like Bowman.
I'll never agree with limiting your pool though, but I think there's enough interesting bilingual guys out there to land a very good one.
The point, Andy, is that you don't know if the team extends an interview to all the candidates; and you do not know whether the people approached either accepted or declined the invitation.
This!
People act here as though they know better than the people directly involved. It's actually quite comical come to think of it.
Also, after gauging the different cantidates' interest, it's in the interviewing process that the selection will be made, a process in which none other than the interviewers and interviewees will know what truly is being discussed.
I, for one, wouldn't want to pretend knowing what's good and what's not, and I prefer taking rumours and hearsay with a grain of salt until the announcement of a new GM is made.
Mentions that the emotional part of the game plays a role, but goes to pretty big lengths to evaluate players. Two choice quotes, talking about his IHL days:
Quote:
"I'll give you an example," he said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.
Quote:
"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman.
Dave Stubbs @habsinsideout1
Journal de Mtl says Serge Savard will be #Habs senior VP hockey operations; GM would report to Serge, Serge to Geoff Molson
Dave Stubbs @habsinsideout1
Journal de Mtl says Serge Savard will be #Habs senior VP hockey operations; GM would report to Serge, Serge to Geoff Molson
I hope this doesn't mean that Molson is getting more involved in hockey decisions. I already felt like he was too involved.
Mentions that the emotional part of the game plays a role, but goes to pretty big lengths to evaluate players. Two choice quotes, talking about his IHL days:
love those quotes...
and exactly the kind of observation that a collection of stats is bound to miss, not because you can't find a set of data to accurately reflect the qualities of the two players, but because the people deciding on what stats to include & what parameters to set up are human and prone to their own bias as to what variables are most valuable.
A guy, like Tippett, who has been around hockey his entire life (as opposed to spending his focused professional time with his nose in front of a computer screen or in a lecture room learning about advanced statistics), can intuitively pick up on things that the rest of us are far more prone to miss.
and exactly the kind of observation that a collection of stats is bound to miss, not because you can't find a set of data to accurately reflect the qualities of the two players, but because the people deciding on what stats to include & what parameters to set up are human and prone to their own bias as to what variables are most valuable.
A guy, like Tippett, who has been around hockey his entire life (as opposed to spending his focused professional time with his nose in front of a computer screen or in a lecture room learning about advanced statistics), can intuitively pick up on things that the rest of us are far more prone to miss.
Those were the observations he was making with the stats he tracks, though I assume it was counting by hand back then (article mentions they now use a spreadsheet).
Those were the observations he was making with the stats he tracks, though I assume it was counting by hand back then (article mentions they now use a spreadsheet).
of course...
you won't find any coach or scout worth their merit that doesn't use some sort of system to track their observations.
"tracking" has been used for ever in scouting/coaching.
the new wave of "advanced stats/metrics" that I'm contrasting it with... the type that requires an individual with specific training/learning in statistical modelling.
and it's not that those methods aren't valuable, just that the observations (which again, are certainly quantified and backed by some sort of measurable system) of a person like Tippett, whose methodology might otherwise appear novice or even faulty by someone trained in statistics, are still, imo, more valuable/accurate because they reflect the intuitive knowledge base that can only truly be achieved through hands-on work with the subject being analyzed (game tapes and stat pages lack the "real" impact of interacting with and learning about living and breathing humans).
you won't find any coach or scout worth their merit that doesn't use some sort of system to track their observations.
"tracking" has been used for ever in scouting/coaching.
the new wave of "advanced stats/metrics" that I'm contrasting it with... the type that requires an individual with specific training/learning in statistical modelling.
and it's not that those methods aren't valuable, just that the observations (which again, are certainly quantified and backed by some sort of measurable system) of a person like Tippett, whose methodology might otherwise appear novice or even faulty by someone trained in statistics, are still, imo, more valuable/accurate because they reflect the intuitive knowledge base that can only truly be achieved through hands-on work with the subject being analyzed (game tapes and stat pages lack the "real" impact of interacting with and learning about living and breathing humans).
I didn't read it that way. For one the "advanced statistics" used now aren't all that advanced because the data isn't there - counting shot attempts, where players start on faceoffs, and figuring out matchups can all be done by hand if one had the time to do so. The NHL's real-time data means that you don't have to though.
For another what Tippett mentioned about the two defensemen (moving the puck the right way away from the zone) meshes with the conventional advanced stat thinking - defensive play is also about moving the puck away from your own zone.
At the end of the day, I don't think we know all is going on.
But the point is, if Brisson and Brisebois are out, and then say Bergevin also doesn't fit, and Savard wants to stay in Pittsburgh, then what? Are we left to hiring a guy like Martin again? Considering we're limiting ourselves to bilinguals?
I agree though, that there's some interesting bilingual guys. Bergevin is my top choice because he was part of such a successful rebuild, and has been around smart hockey mind like Bowman.
I'll never agree with limiting your pool though, but I think there's enough interesting bilingual guys out there to land a very good one.
I think that part of your statement needs to be qualified. Please keep in mind that Chicago's rebuild was a number of years at the bottom thus guaranteeing a good number of high picks. That is not the way the Habs or their fans plan to or want to go. Like the Pens, it is not that difficult to get elite talent when you're always choosing first or near to first for a few years.
The point whitesnake is that you won't know who is better if you do not extend an interview to all the candidates. I want the best of all possible candidates, not the best from a limited pool. It may very well be that the one from the limited pool is the best of all, but you would only know so by interviewing all. Molson says he wants to return to excellence, but if he wants to do so, he better look at all possible options and not just a specific range of options amongst all possible.
If he doesn't look at Fenton, Nill, Benning and Botterill, Molson would have failed in this portion of team building in my eyes.
The habs need to look at all candiates; bilingual or not!
I really don't see why this is so difficult for some people on this forum to grasp. It's almost like they are doing it on purpose...The concept is so absurdly simple and yet it seems impossible to understand for some.
I don't buy this BS about "the list of bilingual candidates just so happen to be the best guys available anyways". What a crock of BS. What makes the asst in Chicago or Toronto so much better than the asst in Pittsburgh or Boston or Detroit or any other organization? You telling me it's a coincidence that Loiselle and Bergevin just happen to be francophones?
And I will not accept the line of reasoning that the bilingual candidates are "high quality, so it's good enough". If they aren't the BEST, and if the job is not made available to the BEST, it is NOT good enough.
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waffledave
Last edited by waffledave: 04-08-2012 at 04:45 PM.
Agreed completely, i dont care if the gm only speaks russian! Or german, or welsh!
Get the best man for the job, hire a translator if need be.
This language barrier is pathetic and could hold us back for years.
Habs maybe in mtl but they are as much a part of canadas history as quebecs.
I really don't see why this is so difficult for some people on this forum to grasp. It's almost like they are doing it on purpose...The concept is so absurdly simple and yet it seems impossible to understand for some.
I don't buy this BS about "the list of bilingual candidates just so happen to be the best guys available anyways". What a crock of BS. What makes the asst in Chicago or Toronto so much better than the asst in Pittsburgh or Boston or Detroit or any other organization? You telling me it's a coincidence that Loiselle and Bergevin just happen to be francophones?
And I will not accept the line of reasoning that the bilingual candidates are "high quality, so it's good enough". If they aren't the BEST, and if the job is not made available to the BEST, it is NOT good enough.
I think that part of your statement needs to be qualified. Please keep in mind that Chicago's rebuild was a number of years at the bottom thus guaranteeing a good number of high picks. That is not the way the Habs or their fans plan to or want to go. Like the Pens, it is not that difficult to get elite talent when you're always choosing first or near to first for a few years.
He still was part of a successful rebuild. He must understand the importance of selecting good players and surrounding them with good players from trades/free agency too.
Whoever performs best in the interview. Whoever is judged by the hiring staff to be best suited for what the organization is looking to do hockey wise.
It is objective. The point is that nobody should be excluded from the process because of language. That is stupid, frankly. It is. Mindblowingly stupid. What makes Loiselle better suited than any other asst GM in the league? Why is he better? Why should he be one of the few who is granted an interview, besides language?
Whoever performs best in the interview. Whoever is judged by the hiring staff to be best suited for what the organization is looking to do hockey wise.
It is objective. The point is that nobody should be excluded from the process because of language. That is stupid, frankly. It is. Mindblowingly stupid. What makes Loiselle better suited than any other asst GM in the league? Why is he better? Why should he be one of the few who is granted an interview, besides language?
The team hasn't done or said anything to suggest that they would. All we've heard from guys like Dreger, Friedman, Lebrun are francophones and there haven't been any suggestions from either of these that Molson is look beyond the bilingual requirement.
It has.
The day the firing of Gauthier was announced, actually.
Bilingualism is a prerequisite, obviously, but they are looking for the very best candidate available.
You can chose to accept that as being the case, seeing it's the, uh, official word on the matter, or you can go by Darren Dreger's word.
Everything else about the process is (mostly useless) noise, and whatever people make of it will only be pertinent as per their agenda (pro or anti-bilingualism as a prerequisite, etc.).
