He's not offended he is simply offering his rebuttal, which you asked for. His rebuttal is that you have zero facts for a gut reaction based on watching games. Which would tell you little about Vanek's personal relationships and why he is not a winner. Now its your turn to explain to him why he is wrong, not to say he should ignore you from now on. That's how debates work.
Thanks. I was wondering what website I was on for a moment.
A little off topic but related.
Not sure if this would even make alot hockey sense, but gets some core moved and brings in experience and picks, and frees up CAP to go after UFA`s this summer.
Vanek $7.142 CAP
+ Roy $4.0 CAP
for
Bobby Ryan $5.1 CAP.
+ 2nd and 4th '12 ?
Close to same points. Both right shot- LW players. Both missed playoffs.
NJ - US born player
Free's up $6.04 mill Cap space
Cup experience
More of a power forward, also a sniper
I agree with your comments here, except the Hamilton one. I listen to the guy every day on GR-55 and he often cuts people off when they start talking about firing Darcy or Lindy. He almost sarcastically says "that will never happen" and the subtext is that sure, Ruff should be fired by now, but he will not be because Darcy and ownership are in love with him. I don't think he particularly favors Ruff at all.
Regardless, if he was at this practice, he can at least try to describe what he saw and heard and put some context into the report.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sba
I see it almost more like defense of him, but granted I don't listen as much as I used to.
No, it's more like "we know that it ain't happening" so whats the point in discussing it.
Back when Roenick and other NBC crew were all aboard the "Fire Lindy, It's time for a change" bandwagon, Hamilton somewhat agreed. But he also added Regier won't do it. If you fire Ruff you'll have to fire Regier and it's rare to fire a GM midseason when it's getting close to the trade deadline.
Sadly it looks like outside of Vanek, and maybe Pominville, the core isn't particularly valuable in trade talks. The return would be marginal at best. You're not getting game changing pieces in return.
If your not confident in your "Core" one year after your owner blows a wad of cash adding complimentary pieces, whats that say about your decision making?
I've been an avid Ruff fan he's done a great job over the years. But even I'm at the point where I think that it's time to change out the management and get a new regime that can look at these players more objectively and make smart preemptive moves instead of lamenting them after the team has failed miserably.
Hamilton often offers SCATHING criticisms of the Sabres---sometimes so brutal, I cannot imagine how he returns to their locker room after it. I'm amazed at what you wrote. He is one of the few people I enjoy listening to because he rarely pulls punches.
Even when they were leading in games, but playing sloppy, he'd call them out on that---while Kevin "Homer" Sylvester NEVER says a cross word.
To say he just delivers the company line tells me you haven't heard much of him.
I haven't heard him much? I work with him.
Isn't it wonderful how two people have differing thoughts and how the perception of what you hear is reality in your opinion? You see it one way, I know it's the other, yet an argument will begin because some people can never be wrong.
Hamilton is a Lindy Ruff and Darcy Regier mouthpiece. His criticism of players comes from the criticism of the coach/GM in private conversation. He did it today regarding Leino. Doesn't make him incorrect, it makes him their patsy. Hamilton doesn't have the knowledge of Hockey to make judgement of players, he merely repeats what he is told by management of the Sabres.
Believe it or not, I don't give a ****. So have at it, I will not respond.
No, it's more like "we know that it ain't happening" so whats the point in discussing it.
Back when Roenick and other NBC crew were all aboard the "Fire Lindy, It's time for a change" bandwagon, Hamilton somewhat agreed. But he also added Regier won't do it. If you fire Ruff you'll have to fire Regier and it's rare to fire a GM midseason when it's getting close to the trade deadline.
Sadly it looks like outside of Vanek, and maybe Pominville, the core isn't particularly valuable in trade talks. The return would be marginal at best. You're not getting game changing pieces in return.
If your not confident in your "Core" one year after your owner blows a wad of cash adding complimentary pieces, whats that say about your decision making?
I've been an avid Ruff fan he's done a great job over the years. But even I'm at the point where I think that it's time to change out the management and get a new regime that can look at these players more objectively and make smart preemptive moves instead of lamenting them after the team has failed miserably.
Paul Gaustad got the Sabres a first round pick with merely games left on his contract.
I'm quite sure that the Sabres could land a lot more than that for any of the core if they decided to trade any of them.
Why should he ignore them? Just because you don't like the reply back?
You tell me, what forward takes a beating year in and year out like Thomas Vanek does and keeps coming back for more.
Name one.
I ignore them because I felt he was being condescending to the idea that I might not have a source/link to an opinion that he does not agree with (as if it would make a difference in a situation like this). I do not wish to debate with somebody like that.
That is all.
Quote:
He's not offended he is simply offering his rebuttal, which you asked for. His rebuttal is that you have zero facts for a gut reaction based on watching games. Which would tell you little about Vanek's personal relationships and why he is not a winner. Now its your turn to explain to him why he is wrong, not to say he should ignore you from now on. That's how debates work.
I ignore them because I felt he was being condescending to the idea that I might not have a source/link to an opinion that he does not agree with (as if it would make a difference in a situation like this). I do not wish to debate with somebody like that.
That is all.
Thank you.
No idea why you're thanking that poster since he was not backing you.
Here is the fundamental problem.
You made this assertion.
Quote:
Vanek is weak. He let personal relationships and feeling get in the way of winning.
But have yet to explain what the hell you mean by that. As in what personal relationship got in the way?
You can't get all pissy when posters went further explaination of a statement like that.
Isn't it wonderful how two people have differing thoughts and how the perception of what you hear is reality in your opinion? You see it one way, I know it's the other, yet an argument will begin because some people can never be wrong.
Hamilton is a Lindy Ruff and Darcy Regier mouthpiece. His criticism of players comes from the criticism of the coach/GM in private conversation. He did it today regarding Leino. Doesn't make him incorrect, it makes him their patsy. Hamilton doesn't have the knowledge of Hockey to make judgement of players, he merely repeats what he is told by management of the Sabres.
Believe it or not, I don't give a ****. So have at it, I will not respond.
I'm not incorrect on this matter though.
You work with him? As what, a board op back at the station? Maybe an intern? Hamilton is actually quite knowledgable about hockey.
So his criticisms only come from what DR & LR tell him? Gee, I guess in between periods, Lindy & Darcy go right to Paul first before going into the locker room, because Hamilton is typically ripping players for bad plays right at the start of the intermission segments.
Don't pull the "I work with him, so I know" stuff with me. I never discuss my line of work, but let's just say that statement is irrelevant and nothing but a lot of hot air.
Ironically, I sometimes think Hamilton is TOO hard on some of the guys, even the ones I think suck.
Isn't it wonderful how two people have differing thoughts and how the perception of what you hear is reality in your opinion? You see it one way, I know it's the other, yet an argument will begin because some people can never be wrong.
Hamilton is a Lindy Ruff and Darcy Regier mouthpiece. His criticism of players comes from the criticism of the coach/GM in private conversation. He did it today regarding Leino. Doesn't make him incorrect, it makes him their patsy. Hamilton doesn't have the knowledge of Hockey to make judgement of players, he merely repeats what he is told by management of the Sabres.
Believe it or not, I don't give a ****. So have at it, I will not respond.
I'm not incorrect on this matter though.
You gave enough of a "****" to post this, so spare us the dramatics.
You're so off base and so factually incorrect that it's staggering. You're factually incorrect about what little facts there are in this.
Paul Hamilton has had more scathing criticisms of players than any other top "personality" at WGR. This can be factually proven because there are audio clips available.
Paul Hamilton is not a parrot. So I see two options for you here.
1. Walk away and never come back to this topic
2. Try to continue your completely ridiculous argument and end up being buried in an avalanche of evidence.
I feel like this guy must be a troll, because no one could ever hear a Paul Hamilton interview without understanding that he disagrees with Lindy on a regular basis. And as to his hockey knowledge wasn't he a college player and had a tryout for the 1980 US team? I'm pretty sure that has been discussed by him on air. Anyway trolllloollloolll
Isn't it wonderful how two people have differing thoughts and how the perception of what you hear is reality in your opinion? You see it one way, I know it's the other, yet an argument will begin because some people can never be wrong.
Hamilton is a Lindy Ruff and Darcy Regier mouthpiece. His criticism of players comes from the criticism of the coach/GM in private conversation. He did it today regarding Leino. Doesn't make him incorrect, it makes him their patsy. Hamilton doesn't have the knowledge of Hockey to make judgement of players, he merely repeats what he is told by management of the Sabres.
Believe it or not, I don't give a ****. So have at it, I will not respond.
I'm not incorrect on this matter though.
Paul Hamilton was one of the last cuts from the 1980 USA miracle on Ice team. But yeah, he knOws nothing about hockey, right?
Ruff is garbage. The sooner he is gone the better... Regier can stay but Lindsay needs to go, he is a loser and will never win a cup.
RUFF= 4 playoff appearances out of the last 10 seasons. So 6 out of the last 10 seasons he couldnt make it where more then half the league makes it, Ruff is a freaking pathetic joke.
He also likes to rotate captains like the Sabres are a peewee team, and prefers to give 4th line garbage like Gaustad 20 minutes a game while you have a 2x 40 goal scorer in Vanek getting under 17 minutes a game... I'd love to find the quote where jackass Lindy says that Vanek will get the premier minutes, he is a tool and a bad coach. He will never get fired either, Pegula is too awed by Lindy Ruff, I wonder if he cried also when he first saw Ruff when he bought the team.
Kind of funny how much better the Sabres were once Gaustad got traded... I also see Goose has 0 goals in 13 games for Nashville, and well you know Goose ain't gonna score in the playoffs for them, because well Gaustad has never scored in the playoffs his whole career
Last edited by Layne Staley: 04-08-2012 at 12:08 AM.
Isn't it wonderful how two people have differing thoughts and how the perception of what you hear is reality in your opinion? You see it one way, I know it's the other, yet an argument will begin because some people can never be wrong.
Hamilton is a Lindy Ruff and Darcy Regier mouthpiece. His criticism of players comes from the criticism of the coach/GM in private conversation. He did it today regarding Leino. Doesn't make him incorrect, it makes him their patsy. Hamilton doesn't have the knowledge of Hockey to make judgement of players, he merely repeats what he is told by management of the Sabres.
Believe it or not, I don't give a ****. So have at it, I will not respond.
I'm not incorrect on this matter though.
You clearly don't work with him in a capacity where you're aware of his long, extensive, hockey pedigree, not to mention one of the few journalists that actually criticizes the team.
Paul Hamilton was one of the last cuts from the 1980 USA miracle on Ice team. But yeah, he knOws nothing about hockey, right?
For the record, I really, really like Paul Hamilton. However, I also believe the oft-spoken legend of Paul Hamilton being one of the last cuts from the 1980 team is false. It's Sabres message board lore.
There were three open tryouts scheduled in March 1979: Bloomington, Minnesota, Oak Park, Michigan and Danvers, Massachusetts. Upwards of 200 players showed up for these tryouts. From there, players were selected to participate in the National Sports Festival held in Colorado Springs, Colorado at the end of July 1979. In August, after that tourney, Herb Brooks named 26 players to his squad before it was whittled down to 20. Hamilton wasn't on that list of 26.
Ralph Cox was the last player cut. The other 5 were Jack Hughes, Les Auge, Gary Ross, Dave Delich and Bruce Horsch, who are all listed on hockeydb as having played training / exhibition games with the national team, though they didn't make the final 20 man Lake Placid roster. Tim Harrer and Aaron Broten were brought in separately and almost added to the roster, but eventually sent home.
Paul probably attended the open tryouts, he may have even made the cut to Colorado Springs. However, the idea that he was one of the very last guys cut and somehow just missed out on a gold medal, well that's just not true. We know who actually made it to Herb's list and which 6 he cut. Paul may like to think he was number 27, but it just didn't work that way. It didn't matter if you were number 27 or number 50. If you didn't make it on Herb's list, then you weren't one of the last cuts, you were one of the first.
None of Paul Hamilton's Iowa State stats are in hockeydb, so it's quite impossible to objectively tell just how good of a hockey player he actually was. He is in the Iowa State team's HOF, but so are about 70 other people I've never heard of. And that's meant to be a slam, it's just the truth.
No idea why you're thanking that poster since he was not backing you.
Here is the fundamental problem.
You made this assertion.
But have yet to explain what the hell you mean by that. As in what personal relationship got in the way?
You can't get all pissy when posters went further explaination of a statement like that.
I was going to say something sarcastic or cute or whatever but I had no idea how to say it to you so I'll just be straight and honest.
I know he was not on my side. I found the fact that he felt the need to belittle my debating skills (despite not even having witnessed them) to be insulting. I chose to not even fully reply to him. Thus I chose a semi-sarcastic reply rather than spend energy on a meaningless reply to a meaningless semi-hidden insult. Does this clear things up for you a bit better?
Nobody asked me for an explanation. I received an "lolwut" and a demand for links (which does not validate any argument either way). Then a condescending remark when I told him I had no links, just a gut feeling along with watching these guys for several years. I would be glad to debate and talk about what's going on in an intelligent matter, however I do not tolerate nonsense and demand a higher standard of debate than people saying "lolwut" to me after I type something up that took me a little while to write. I would say that is far from being "pissy".
The personal relationships I feel affected Vanek were with the coaching staff. I feel he is weak mentally because all it will take is one event that will make him doubt himself. Of the 3 skaters I picked, Vanek is the one I may be most wrong about, since he has proven in the past that he is willing to work harder than what is just good enough. I believe Roy and Stafford especially are passive types that you cannot win a cup with if they are leading your team.
Ruff is garbage. The sooner he is gone the better... Regier can stay but Lindsay needs to go, he is a loser and will never win a cup.
I'm not here to defend Lindy, but dammit man, rule number one - do you really think resorting to calling him Lindsay makes you look good? It's immature and no one will take anything you say seriously.
Quote:
RUFF= 4 playoff appearances out of the last 10 seasons. So 6 out of the last 10 seasons he couldnt make it where more then half the league makes it, Ruff is a freaking pathetic joke.
He's got one Stanley Cup finals and 2 conference finals apparances to his credit. You could couple that with your stats and say something completely different, such as, when Lindy's teams do make the playoffs, statistically they go farther in them than average.
Quote:
He also likes to rotate captains like the Sabres are a peewee team, and prefers to give 4th line garbage like Gaustad 20 minutes a game while you have a 2x 40 goal scorer in Vanek getting under 17 minutes a game... I'd love to find the quote where jackass Lindy says that Vanek will get the premier minutes, he is a tool and a bad coach. He will never get fired either, Pegula is too awed by Lindy Ruff, I wonder if he cried also when he first saw Ruff when he bought the team.
Now that's just blatently false. Vanek was 4th on the team out of forwards in average ice time, and the three ahead of him (Pominville, Stafford, and Roy) all get significantly more ice time in penalty killing situations than Vanek and that added to their total. Gaustad didn't get more ice time than Vanek, heck he barely averaged more 15 min a game, and when you take out Gaustad's PK time as well, it proves that what you imply is just crazy. Vanek shared time with Poms, Roy, and Stafford. Not with or behind 4th liners.
Quote:
Kind of funny how much better the Sabres were once Gaustad got traded... I also see Goose has 0 goals in 13 games for Nashville, and well you know Goose ain't gonna score in the playoffs for them, because well Gaustad has never scored in the playoffs his whole career
So how did they manage to crap the bed at the end, since Goose wasn't on the team holding them back?
He's got one Stanley Cup finals and 2 conference finals apparances to his credit. You could couple that with your stats and say something completely different, such as, when Lindy's teams do make the playoffs, statistically they go farther in them than average.
That Cup Finals team was built my Muckler and was mostly Nolans old team. Ruff also had the best goalie to ever play the game. He actually has 3 conference final appearances, but none in the past 5 years. I'm not impressed about him reaching the conference finals, because from 05-07, the Sabres had the best team in the NHL, and Ruff got constantly out coached by Laviolette in 06, Murray in 07, Julien in 10, and Laviolette again in 11 when it really mattered.
I could say something different, like Ruff hasn't won a playoff series the past 5 seasons, or without the Co Caps, it means the same thing. Pathetic that in half a decade you can't win a single series. In his 14 seasons, he has missed it 6 times, which is almost half.
As for my remark about Vanek and his ice time, I am not just referring to this season, I'm talking about 07-09, where Ruff was overplaying Goose immensely while Vanek gets disrespected by getting under 17 minutes every year... It's funny when you look at the top goal scorers list the past few
seasons and notice everyone ahead and behind Vanek on the list all get far more then 17 mins a game... Btw his PPG is higher then Poms and Roy and Stafford, so no reason he shouldn't get 19-20 mins a game.
Ruff won't get fired unfortunately but he is just not a good coach. I don't want to accept mediocrity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zbubble
So how did they manage to crap the bed at the end, since Goose wasn't on the team holding them back?
By having a coach that was outclassed. The team played better without Gaustad... If Goose isn't dealt then Foligno never would have broke out... Best move Regier has made since Briere was dealing Goose.
That Cup Finals team was built my Muckler and was mostly Nolans old team. Ruff also had the best goalie to ever play the game. He actually has 3 conference final appearances, but none in the past 5 years. I'm not impressed about him reaching the conference finals, because from 05-07, the Sabres had the best team in the NHL, and Ruff got constantly out coached by Laviolette in 06, Murray in 07, Julien in 10, and Laviolette again in 11 when it really mattered.
Nolan also had the best goalie to ever play the game and didn't get as far. Outcoached by Laviolette on 06? In a 7 game series with 3 of our top dmen down in game 7? Did Laviolette give McKee his staph infection? Or cause Brian Campbell to heave the puck over the glass and take a penalty in the final minutes? You give far too much credit to the coaches. Were we the favorite in 11 as the 7th seed playing the 2nd? By God, i thought Laviolette's revolving goalie door was a train wreck. Minus the goalie, Philly just had the better team. I don't think Ruff got out coached, the team fell apart and got out played in game 7.
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I could say something different, like Ruff hasn't won a playoff series the past 5 seasons, or without the Co Caps, it means the same thing. Pathetic that in half a decade you can't win a single series. In his 14 seasons, he has missed it 6 times, which is almost half.
I guess since I've lived though this team going 10 years without a playoff win that 5 doesn't seem so bad yet. Here's something to do for perspective - compare what Ruff has done in the last 14 years, to what the team did in the 14 years before he was coach. Then tell me which segment is the pathetic one.
Quote:
As for my remark about Vanek and his ice time, I am not just referring to this season, I'm talking about 07-09, where Ruff was overplaying Goose immensely while Vanek gets disrespected
Yes, one year, 5 years ago, Goose averaged 20 seconds more ice time per game. Way to keep it current.
Quote:
by getting under 17 minutes every year... It's funny when you look at the top goal scorers list the past few
seasons and notice everyone ahead and behind Vanek on the list all get far more then 17 mins a game... Btw his PPG is higher then Poms and Roy and Stafford, so no reason he shouldn't get 19-20 mins a game.
But most of those guys are way better 5 on 5 players than Vanek is, who scores a higher percentage of his points on the powerplay. His even strength production isn't as good and it doesn't merit gobs of more ice time. When his confidence is shot and he's in a scoring drought, he's pretty useless out there. This has happened a couple times during every season. He'll go double digit games without a goal. Why on earth then would you then give him more ice time?
Quote:
By having a coach that was outclassed. The team played better without Gaustad... If Goose isn't dealt then Foligno never would have broke out... Best move Regier has made since Briere was dealing Goose.
Uh, more like if Kassian isn't delt, and Vanek doesn't get hobbled, then Foligno doesn't get called up. When Goose was traded, Hodgson was the one that initially took his spot. Foligno getting a shot really had nothing to do with it.
Wanna know the real reason teams do better after trades? Because a little bit of complacency disappears when one realizes if it could happen to so-and-so, then they could be next. That is why "shake up" trades are usually pretty effective.
For the record, I really, really like Paul Hamilton. However, I also believe the oft-spoken legend of Paul Hamilton being one of the last cuts from the 1980 team is false. It's Sabres message board lore.
There were three open tryouts scheduled in March 1979: Bloomington, Minnesota, Oak Park, Michigan and Danvers, Massachusetts. Upwards of 200 players showed up for these tryouts. From there, players were selected to participate in the National Sports Festival held in Colorado Springs, Colorado at the end of July 1979. In August, after that tourney, Herb Brooks named 26 players to his squad before it was whittled down to 20. Hamilton wasn't on that list of 26.
Ralph Cox was the last player cut. The other 5 were Jack Hughes, Les Auge, Gary Ross, Dave Delich and Bruce Horsch, who are all listed on hockeydb as having played training / exhibition games with the national team, though they didn't make the final 20 man Lake Placid roster. Tim Harrer and Aaron Broten were brought in separately and almost added to the roster, but eventually sent home.
Paul probably attended the open tryouts, he may have even made the cut to Colorado Springs. However, the idea that he was one of the very last guys cut and somehow just missed out on a gold medal, well that's just not true. We know who actually made it to Herb's list and which 6 he cut. Paul may like to think he was number 27, but it just didn't work that way. It didn't matter if you were number 27 or number 50. If you didn't make it on Herb's list, then you weren't one of the last cuts, you were one of the first.
None of Paul Hamilton's Iowa State stats are in hockeydb, so it's quite impossible to objectively tell just how good of a hockey player he actually was. He is in the Iowa State team's HOF, but so are about 70 other people I've never heard of. And that's meant to be a slam, it's just the truth.
It can't be message board lore because they talk about it on WGR all the time, that's where I heard it. One day on Schopp and the Bulldog they were talking about how he's in the movie 'Miracle' (well not him but an actor playing him at the camp they show at the beginning of the movie) They could be lying but that's where I'm getting it from.
It can't be message board lore because they talk about it on WGR all the time, that's where I heard it. One day on Schopp and the Bulldog they were talking about how he's in the movie 'Miracle' (well not him but an actor playing him at the camp they show at the beginning of the movie) They could be lying but that's where I'm getting it from.
He may have been in camp, but he wasn't the last cut right before the Olympics.
