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Bob Cole Divisional Quarterfinals: Rögle vs. Hamilton

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Old
04-10-2012, 07:01 PM
  #51
Dreakmur
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As far as scoring from the forwards goes, I think it's pretty safe to say that Nels Stewart, Ilya Kovalchuk, and Peter Forsberg are all significantly better that anything Hamilton has on their roster. I see Frank Foyston as a step below those guys, but it looks like he is also better than anything Hamilton has.

It's great to be good defensively, but at some point, you have to score to win. Despite that huge edge in offensive skill, however, Rogle isn't a poor defensive team. While they aren't on the same level as Hamilton in terms of defense, they've got a lot les firepower to go up against, so they'll be able to defend effectively here.

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04-10-2012, 08:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
To be perfectly honest, Hamilton doesn't really have an offensive line that's worth being scared of. The Krutov-Gilmour-Middleton line is probably their best, but it really lacks an offensive punch. The Tkachuk-Roenick-Amonte line can also score, and it looks like they'd be pretty easy to shut down if needed. Those are the two lines that we'l try to get Leswick-Peca-Pierson out against, but we won't be in a panic to make it happen.
Krutov-Gilmour-Middleton is somewhere between a first and second line in firepower in my view. Krutov is a low end first liner to me, Gilmour a high end second line center, and Middleton a somewhere around the mid-to-lower end first liners. The line certainly has firepower and is assembled beautifully with everything anyone could want from a line, so I'm not too worried about it scoring. It'll score. Not as much as a typical 1st line, but more than a second line. I think that line will outscore your second line that I'm attempting to match them against. The defensive ability +offensive ability of that line is greater than the offensive ability plus defensive ability of your second line. However if I'm in the defensive zone for a big faceoff, Keon will be going out there as opposed to Gillmour with that line to win that draw even if your second line is out there, as his faceoff ability is well substantiated. [/quote]

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The Peca line has 2 other jobs that are worth mentioning. First, that line will be taking a lot of defensive zone face-offs - often with Sullivan in Pierson's place. Peca is an excellent face-off man, so he'll win a lot of them. Add Sullivan into the mix, and that allows Peca to really cheat on his draws, which makes him even more likely to win. With Leswick and Sullivan on the boads, we'll be able to conistently get pucks chipped out of our end, and hopefully, get it deep for a change.

Second, the Peca-Lesweck combination will be used as sort of an energy line.
The Tkachuk-Roenick-Amonte line is going to be given a pretty decent amount of offensive zone draws this series. Peca will probably win 54% of draws or so I'd think. That line is a solid defensive line, but it is far from one of the best in the draft. It is more of an energy line to me honestly as you said. Leswick and Peca are great, but Pierson is a bit out of place to me on a defensive line. Of course he is decent defensively and was a willing backchecker, but I can't say I find him to be anything special. Plus, this line (and your defense unless Pulford is out there, and he wont be out there every time) has no one to stop Tkachuk in front of the net without Portland. Good luck stopping him in the defensive zone. [/quote]

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Yes, Hatcher makes the occasional blunder. He's also a completely dominant force between those mistakes. You can focus on the negatives if you like, but the fact is that, despite those negatives, Hatcher is a pretty beastly player.

He would be Hamilton's #3 defenseman (yes, I think he's better than Heller), so I'm quite happy to have him on my 3rd pairing.
Lol. This is a joke right? Hatcher has an overrated All-Star record, and Heller has an underrated one. How do I know this? Because we've seen Hatcher play and contemporaries said so about Heller:

Conn Smythe in 1940:

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“The big difference is back of the blue line. I’ll put the Rangers on top there. Striking them at 100%, I’d make Chicago 90% on the defense and the Leafs and Boston 80%. Where the Rangers have the big edge is that if it ever comes down to the last five minutes and they’re a goal on top, they can put Heller and Coulter out there together and neither of those birds will make a mistake”.
Quote:
“Ott Heller has never made either the first or second team, which is as great a mystery to four people named Smythe, Dick Irvin, Lester Patrick, and Frank Boucher as it is to you and me”.
LITERALLY the only thing Hatcher does better is shoot. Heller is a better passer, he's stronger defensively, and just as good a skater. There is no way Hatcher is better.

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Kovalchuk isn't off the 1st PP. He's with Lidstrom for that first half, and sometimes with Murphy on the second half too.

Just like Hatcher, Kovalchuk has his warts, but he's also got things that he does really well. One-timing pucks is one of the things he does really well.... probably among the very best of all time. The guy is an ace on the point. Sure he might turn a puck over.

Kovalchuk might cause a few short-handed goals, but he'll also score 20 PP goals from the blueline. If you'd rather have a guy who scores 5 goals, but gives up none, that's you're call. I'll take the impact player.

Most of Kovalchuk's turn-overs come from him trying to carry the puck through too many people on a rush. They don't often come from him one-timing a puck from the point. Lidstrom is QBing the powerplay, which means the puck won't be on Kovalchuk's stick much, which will limit his turn-overs even more.
Not a ton to disagree with here. Pretty much entirely fair outside of the obvious exaggeration that Kovalchuk scores 20 goals in an ATD season from the blueline, but that's obvious and you know that.

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Hamilton has very strong PK forwards, but average PK defensemen.

Agreed that Rogle will take more penalties, but not by a significant amount. In my opinion, most penalties come from three things: speeed disadvantage, over-aggression, and getting tired.

Rogle is going to get most penalties from being aggressive. Hamilton will get most of their penalties from getting tired.
What the hell more do you want from my PKing defensemen? Harvey is the best defensive defenseman ever, Gerard is somewhere in the top 20 defensively, and Heller and Van Impe are two good shot blocking defensive defensemen. I literally have no idea how I have average PKing defensemen.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Honestly, that is a terrible idea.....

Having a guy like Tex Evans is going to mean that my forechecking game will be even more effective. Slow and unskilled is never the answer to an effective forecehcking team.

Who's corner should we dump it into, Doug Harvey's or Jack Evans'? Obviously, we'll be throwing it to Evans every single. In most cases, my forwards will just win the puck-race, and we'll start our cycle game against a guy too slow to keep up. In the rare case that Evans does win, he's too unskilled to make the play. We'll just pressure him into a bad play, and that's just as good as winning the race.
That would make sense, if Evans was a bad skater. He wasn't known as a bad skater, just a big defensive forward. There is literally nothing about him out there being a bad skater, and I have found a quote about his good skating. I'm not about to call him a strong skater, but from evidence we have he certainly wasn't bad.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
As far as scoring from the forwards goes, I think it's pretty safe to say that Nels Stewart, Ilya Kovalchuk, and Peter Forsberg are all significantly better that anything Hamilton has on their roster. I see Frank Foyston as a step below those guys, but it looks like he is also better than anything Hamilton has.

It's great to be good defensively, but at some point, you have to score to win. Despite that huge edge in offensive skill, however, Rogle isn't a poor defensive team. While they aren't on the same level as Hamilton in terms of defense, they've got a lot les firepower to go up against, so they'll be able to defend effectively here.
I would agree that Stewart and Kovalchuk are better goal scorers than anything I've got, and Forsberg is a better offensive force than anything I've got, but let's not go crazy and call Foyston better than Gilmour offensively. He's probably about on Middleton's level offensively here. I obviously feel pretty strongly that Gilmour and Forsberg aren't seperated by as much as you believe them to be either (Forsberg better, but not insanely). Gilmour wins the Hart if it's not for Lemieux in '93, and isn't terribly far off in playmaking ability when taking career value + peak value into account (I do account more for peak, making Forsberg the better passer, but not by much in my view), neither is going to be much of a goal scoring factor (they have one top 10 in goal scoring between them), plus Gilmour's stronger defensively than Forsberg (Forsberg not being a slouch there either). Forsberg is better, but let's not act like it's by some chasm here either.

And let's not just totally forget about Tkachuk and Roenick here, who have proven chemistry together as strong offensive performers.

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04-10-2012, 08:54 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Lol. This is a joke right? Hatcher has an overrated All-Star record, and Heller has an underrated one. How do I know this? Because we've seen Hatcher play and contemporaries said so about Heller:

LITERALLY the only thing Hatcher does better is shoot. Heller is a better passer, he's stronger defensively, and just as good a skater. There is no way Hatcher is better.
I think you are really over-rating Heller here. He only had 4 seasons of significant all-star voting, and that was in what might be the weakest era for NHL defenseman. Hatcher, on the other hand, played in one of the stronger eras for defenseman.

Ott Heller was never his team's #1 defenseman, and he was most often down on the second pairing. His voting record is completely fair.

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What the hell more do you want from my PKing defensemen? Harvey is the best defensive defenseman ever, Gerard is somewhere in the top 20 defensively, and Heller and Van Impe are two good shot blocking defensive defensemen. I literally have no idea how I have average PKing defensemen.
Your top-2 are amazing.

Not really a fan of Heller, and Van Imp is more of a spare in my opinion.

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That would make sense, if Evans was a bad skater. He wasn't known as a bad skater, just a big defensive forward. There is literally nothing about him out there being a bad skater, and I have found a quote about his good skating. I'm not about to call him a strong skater, but from evidence we have he certainly wasn't bad.
You can have him out there for 17 minutes of even stength time per game if you want, but my plan is to target him, and I think he'll be very easy to expose.

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I would agree that Stewart and Kovalchuk are better goal scorers than anything I've got, and Forsberg is a better offensive force than anything I've got, but let's not go crazy and call Foyston better than Gilmour offensively. He's probably about on Middleton's level offensively here. I obviously feel pretty strongly that Gilmour and Forsberg aren't seperated by as much as you believe them to be either (Forsberg better, but not insanely). Gilmour wins the Hart if it's not for Lemieux in '93, and isn't terribly far off in playmaking ability when taking career value + peak value into account (I do account more for peak, making Forsberg the better passer, but not by much in my view), neither is going to be much of a goal scoring factor (they have one top 10 in goal scoring between them), plus Gilmour's stronger defensively than Forsberg (Forsberg not being a slouch there either). Forsberg is better, but let's not act like it's by some chasm here either.
Foyston is better than Gilmour offensively. Gilmour's offense wasn't that great.

Forsberg is much better than Gilmour in terms of offense and physical play. Defensively, Gilmour is better.

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04-10-2012, 09:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think you are really over-rating Heller here. He only had 4 seasons of significant all-star voting, and that was in what might be the weakest era for NHL defenseman. Hatcher, on the other hand, played in one of the stronger eras for defenseman.

Ott Heller was never his team's #1 defenseman, and he was most often down on the second pairing. His voting record is completely fair.
Sure he wasn't as good as Coulter or Pratt during their peaks? I think we all knew that. And it's just straight up not true that he was often on their second pairings. He was on their top pairing upon coming up, pairing with Ching Johnson in '33, who was the Rangers' top defenseman. Then after Ching retired and he paired with someone for two years and then paired on the Rangers top pairing again with Babe Pratt from 39-43 when Pratt left for the Leafs. I know Coulter was certainly better, but Heller is the perfect complimentary partner. And you had no comment for (Smythe and Irvin moreso than Patrick and Boucher as they were his coaches) four of his contemporary players saying that he played a quiet game and should have made all-star teams. Like I said, there is nothing that Hatcher does better than Heller except shoot, which we all know leads to overrating of players in all-star voting.

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Your top-2 are amazing.

Not really a fan of Heller, and Van Imp is more of a spare in my opinion.
Van Impe is nothing crazy I agree. He's a number 6 that's a psycho and htat works, but that's about it.

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You can have him out there for 17 minutes of even stength time per game if you want, but my plan is to target him, and I think he'll be very easy to expose.
I clearly disagree, but we might as well move on because there's no point.

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Foyston is better than Gilmour offensively. Gilmour's offense wasn't that great.

Forsberg is much better than Gilmour in terms of offense and physical play. Defensively, Gilmour is better.
Foyston is not better than Gilmour offensively. I'd say he might be more complete offensively, but Gilmour's playmaking ability is much stronger than anything that Foyston does.

Like I said I disagree that Forsberg is MUCH better in terms of offense, but yeah he's better.

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04-10-2012, 10:10 PM
  #55
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Come playoff time, Gilmour is one guy whose value at pretty much everything goes up.

He played like a man possessed.

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04-10-2012, 10:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Sure he wasn't as good as Coulter or Pratt during their peaks? I think we all knew that. And it's just straight up not true that he was often on their second pairings. He was on their top pairing upon coming up, pairing with Ching Johnson in '33, who was the Rangers' top defenseman. Then after Ching retired and he paired with someone for two years and then paired on the Rangers top pairing again with Babe Pratt from 39-43 when Pratt left for the Leafs. I know Coulter was certainly better, but Heller is the perfect complimentary partner. And you had no comment for (Smythe and Irvin moreso than Patrick and Boucher as they were his coaches) four of his contemporary players saying that he played a quiet game and should have made all-star teams. Like I said, there is nothing that Hatcher does better than Heller except shoot, which we all know leads to overrating of players in all-star voting.
When I said 2nd pairing, I meant #3 on the depth chart.

Wasn't Ching Johnson paired with Earl Seibert untill he was traded to Chicago in 1936? After that, he was behind Coutler and Pratt. Those two may not have played together, but they were #1 and #2. That left Heller as the #3.

We aren't just looking at the players and doing a skills competition of fastest skaters and hardest shooters. We're evaluating how good they were in the games. The best way to evaluate that is voting records. Hatcher's voting record more impressive.

In my opinion, both Heller and Hatcher are decend #4s in the size of ATD. I think they are both very similar in terms of overall play. I would pick Heller before Hatcher, since I do prefer the solid and steady guys, but that doesn't make him a better player.

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Foyston is not better than Gilmour offensively. I'd say he might be more complete offensively, but Gilmour's playmaking ability is much stronger than anything that Foyston does.

Like I said I disagree that Forsberg is MUCH better in terms of offense, but yeah he's better.
Gilmour's offensive peak is 4th, 5th, 7th, and a couple more seasons at about 20.

Forsberg's is 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and a couple more just outside 10.

Foyston's peak is similar to Gilmour's. It's tough to say exactly, but accoding to my consolidation project, he's got 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, a couple just outside 10, and a couple more at about 20.

Gilmour's play-off scoing goes up, but Forsberg and Foyston were both just as dominant as Gilmour in terms of raising their games in the play-offs.

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04-10-2012, 10:26 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Come playoff time, Gilmour is one guy whose value at pretty much everything goes up.

He played like a man possessed.
I agree completely. Doug Gilmour is great in the play-offs...... but both Forsberg and Foyston are guys who significantly raise their games in the play-offs too.

Forsberg was either 1st in points or points per game in the play-offs 4 times.

Frank Foyston was also 1st twice and 2nd twice in play-off scoring.

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04-10-2012, 10:55 PM
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vecens, you're right that Heller is likely better, but it sounds to me like you're really underrating Hatcher.

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04-10-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
When I said 2nd pairing, I meant #3 on the depth chart.

Wasn't Ching Johnson paired with Earl Seibert untill he was traded to Chicago in 1936? After that, he was behind Coutler and Pratt. Those two may not have played together, but they were #1 and #2. That left Heller as the #3.

We aren't just looking at the players and doing a skills competition of fastest skaters and hardest shooters. We're evaluating how good they were in the games. The best way to evaluate that is voting records. Hatcher's voting record more impressive.

In my opinion, both Heller and Hatcher are decend #4s in the size of ATD. I think they are both very similar in terms of overall play. I would pick Heller before Hatcher, since I do prefer the solid and steady guys, but that doesn't make him a better player.



Gilmour's offensive peak is 4th, 5th, 7th, and a couple more seasons at about 20.

Forsberg's is 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and a couple more just outside 10.

Foyston's peak is similar to Gilmour's. It's tough to say exactly, but accoding to my consolidation project, he's got 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, a couple just outside 10, and a couple more at about 20.

Gilmour's play-off scoing goes up, but Forsberg and Foyston were both just as dominant as Gilmour in terms of raising their games in the play-offs.
In Broadway's Longest Running Hit, Heller is referred to as playing with Johnson from the moment he came up. It allowed Johnson to push further into offensive play because of Heller's strong defense. Then when Johnson left I don't know who he played with for two years, then in 1939 he and Pratt combined to form the best pairing in the NHL, only giving up 17 goals in 48 games that season.

As I said earlier, Heller has always been the perfect complimentary guy, which is exactly what he is here with Gerard. His game will be raised, and the game of his partner will be raised, just as it always has been. I think Heller is a low end 3, high end 4, best played as a strong second pairing guy. Hatcher is a bottom pairing guy to me because of the defensive let downs from time to time. Yeah, maybe he gets a few more special teams minutes than your #4 to become your #4 overall, but he's an ES #5 to me.

----------------------------------------------

Gilmour: 4, 5, 7, 17, 17, 19, 22, 24, 25, 26. That's more than a "couple seasons around 20.

Forsberg: 1, 2, 4, 5, 9, 11, nothing higher than 39

Let's not act like this is some small edge as far as career value. Gilmour has 4 more relevant seasons as an offensive producer than Forsberg does.

Forsberg and Foyston are both great playoff producers, I would expect their games to go up just as much as Gilmour's does, I agree with you.

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04-10-2012, 10:58 PM
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vecens, you're right that Heller is likely better, but it sounds to me like you're really underrating Hatcher.
As a #4 in overall minutes, but a #5 in ES minutes? That seems pretty fair to me just because of his sometimes ugly defensive game (by no means do I mean to trash him all the time, but we do know he was prone to some costly errors).

EDIT: could always just be me and as is obvious I value defense from defensemen more than offense.


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04-10-2012, 11:43 PM
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Gilmour: 4, 5, 7, 17, 17, 19, 22, 24, 25, 26. That's more than a "couple seasons around 20.
When I said around 20, I meant close to 20, but under.

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Forsberg: 1, 2, 4, 5, 9, 11, nothing higher than 39
You missed a 14th.

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Let's not act like this is some small edge as far as career value. Gilmour has 4 more relevant seasons as an offensive producer than Forsberg does.
Gilmour has 24th, 25th, and 26th as his significant seasons over Forsberg. That isn't a significant edge in longevity as a relevant player.

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04-11-2012, 03:11 PM
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how big a problem at ES is nels stewart? he was lazy and generally weak defensively, and his weaknesses are exacerbated at C. i think vecens is right that hamilton will have more control over the neutral zone when stewart is on the ice.

dreakmur is right that gilmour won't be defending stewart as much as would be expected in a normal checking role, b/c of stewart's style, but i agree with vecens that gilmour can be disruptive enough that stewart's unit has some trouble setting up plays. gilmour's line is also a good puck possession unit, especially if it is playing with harvey, so i think hamilton will probably have better results in a matchup of stewart vs gilmour and harvey.


OTOH, i think forsberg with lidstrom - murphy will probably have possession more often vs keon and gerard.



how does hamilton's 1st PP work? it does not really seem to have a clear presence at the net. i don't think it is necessary to have a man at the crease, but it is has become much more important since goaltenders have become better and bigger, and shotblocking has become routine.

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04-11-2012, 03:58 PM
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nik, dont have time to respond to you in full, but both Krutov and Tkachuk were both strong net presences and will be playing that role.

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04-11-2012, 05:21 PM
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how big a problem at ES is nels stewart? he was lazy and generally weak defensively, and his weaknesses are exacerbated at C. i think vecens is right that hamilton will have more control over the neutral zone when stewart is on the ice.
Nels Stewart does suck defensively, and he is lazy, but that's why I surrounded him with the pair of Smokey Harris and Alf Smith. Both guys are better than average defensively, and they're both extremely good workers along the boards and on the forecheck.

As I've said before, Nels Stewart has the hands and puck protection skills to make up for his lack of speed while carrying the puck. When he played defense, he was very successful with his end-to-end rushes. I would agree that he's not really an open ice player, but there is a reason this unit is wanting to get through the neutral zone as quickly as possible. The unit isn't going to making plays through the zone. They are just going to lug the puck down the boards, and if they get cut off, it's a chip or a dump and chase.

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dreakmur is right that gilmour won't be defending stewart as much as would be expected in a normal checking role, b/c of stewart's style, but i agree with vecens that gilmour can be disruptive enough that stewart's unit has some trouble setting up plays. gilmour's line is also a good puck possession unit, especially if it is playing with harvey, so i think hamilton will probably have better results in a matchup of stewart vs gilmour and harvey.
I'll be playing Lidstrom and Murphy with the Stewart unit quite a bit. Obviously, this unit does need the help in moving the puck up ice, but this also allows me to use my #1 pair against their best offensive lline.

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04-11-2012, 05:22 PM
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nik, dont have time to respond to you in full, but both Krutov and Tkachuk were both strong net presences and will be playing that role.
They are decent net presences, but they won't even challenge Harvey Pulford.

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04-11-2012, 05:24 PM
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They are decent net presences, but they won't even challenge Harvey Pulford.
Tkachuk is going to do pretty damn well against who ever you put out on the second defensive unit though.

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04-11-2012, 05:43 PM
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Tkachuk is going to do pretty damn well against who ever you put out on the second defensive unit though.
He definately will, especially since I took Portand out of the line-up.

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04-11-2012, 08:41 PM
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With all the talk about Stewart, I think people might be forgetting that Rogle's top offensive unit is actually Peter Forsberg and Frank Foyston. While the combo isn't really an elite duo in the ATD world, they are definately the best offensive threat in this series. Their speed, skill, and well-rounded play has the ability to carry the play. As I said before, they won't always have Nolan on the wing. Ilya Kovalchuk will see time on their wing, and so will Stewart at times.


Also, with Kovalchuk playing with Red Sullivan and Bill Goldsworthy on the 4th line, that unit actually has a significant offensive punch. Unlike most 4th lines, you can't just ignore it and play your 4th line against it.

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04-12-2012, 09:41 AM
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With all the talk about Stewart, I think people might be forgetting that Rogle's top offensive unit is actually Peter Forsberg and Frank Foyston. While the combo isn't really an elite duo in the ATD world, they are definately the best offensive threat in this series. Their speed, skill, and well-rounded play has the ability to carry the play. As I said before, they won't always have Nolan on the wing. Ilya Kovalchuk will see time on their wing, and so will Stewart at times.
I'd agree with that characterisation. Not an elite in the ATD, but the best combo here sure.

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Also, with Kovalchuk playing with Red Sullivan and Bill Goldsworthy on the 4th line, that unit actually has a significant offensive punch. Unlike most 4th lines, you can't just ignore it and play your 4th line against it.
I'd agree, and you also can't do that against mine with Lynn Patrick a two-time post-season all-star, Dick Irvin a one-time post season all-star late in his career (4th in Hart voting) and a four time postseason all-star in the PCHA/WCHL, plus a Hart winner in Corey Perry (albeit a short career, but he's certainly a worthy fourth liner at this point). It's another strong support offensive line.

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04-12-2012, 12:14 PM
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I'd agree with that characterisation. Not an elite in the ATD, but the best combo here sure.



I'd agree, and you also can't do that against mine with Lynn Patrick a two-time post-season all-star, Dick Irvin a one-time post season all-star late in his career (4th in Hart voting) and a four time postseason all-star in the PCHA/WCHL, plus a Hart winner in Corey Perry (albeit a short career, but he's certainly a worthy fourth liner at this point). It's another strong support offensive line.
Perry is a one-hit wonder. He will be a 60-70pts per season player just like he was before his hart season. Hes a decent 4th liner but he is the weakest of these 6. I would even go as far and say if it wasnt for that all the stars align for him season he wouldnt even be a spare in this as he's not better than Unger for example.

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04-12-2012, 01:44 PM
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Perry just followed up his Hart with a 6th in goals again this year...

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04-12-2012, 01:56 PM
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Perry just followed up his Hart with a 6th in goals again this year...
but just 60 points.

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04-12-2012, 03:49 PM
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but just 60 points.
True, but with Irvin and Patrick is he being asked to make plays?

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04-12-2012, 04:58 PM
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True, but with Irvin and Patrick is he being asked to make plays?
do you want the line to be predictable?

Actually, IIRC, Irvin had one good year for assists but was never a playmaker aside from that.

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04-13-2012, 11:12 AM
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do you want the line to be predictable?

Actually, IIRC, Irvin had one good year for assists but was never a playmaker aside from that.
Yeah...seventies it's very difficult for me to imagine that a guy who led the NHL in assists isn't a good playmaker, regardless if he led it one year or not. I found I think two other years that he led his team in assists, so the way I see Irvin is as a guy who is a complete offensive player, not just a shooter or a passer. He's like Patrick in that regard for me. Both of these two players are adept at both passing and scoring, so the fact that Perry isn't the best passer I think will be mitigated by this fact.

EDIT: to be honest, I really wish I had more time to really complete a bio on Irvin and to see if by some fluke he played another position. In a vaccuum, I see very little seperating him from Smokey Harris, and in all honesty I think Irvin is probably better (Harris is of course more valuable as a known winger). Dreak do you have any idea why Harris isn't in the HHOF (as in, is there a Bernie Morris-type of situation here)?

EDIT 2: Just looked through all of the possible Google News articles, he definitely didn't play anything but center.


Last edited by vecens24: 04-13-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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