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Top 10 offensive defensemen

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Old
04-07-2012, 02:21 PM
  #1
BenchBrawl
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Top 10 offensive defensemen

I am interested in debating about the greatest offensive defensemen , maybe we could start with some lists then debate some specific points.

I'll make my list later today.

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04-07-2012, 02:45 PM
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RabbinsDuck
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Orr
Coffey
Kelly
Bourque
Potvin
Shore
Fetisov
Leetch
MacInnis
Lidstrom

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04-07-2012, 03:44 PM
  #3
kmad
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Harry Cameron
Flash Hollett
Phil Housley

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04-07-2012, 04:23 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Orr
Coffey
Kelly
Bourque
Potvin
Shore
Fetisov
Leetch
MacInnis
Lidstrom
I like this list but it's hard not to have Housley on the top 10 for strictly offense but who to replace is the question?

My guess would be Fetisov who had the biggest slide in the 2nd half of his career and I still question his peak, outside of the Russian unit he played on and it's a fair question given the results of those players in an offensive NHL


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 04-07-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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04-07-2012, 04:29 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Can 7 of the 10 greatest offensive dman come from basically the same era?

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04-07-2012, 05:07 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Can 7 of the 10 greatest offensive dman come from basically the same era?
Sure it's possible if you buy into the theory that Kelly then Orr revolutionized the game.

Even in the last 30 years from the 80's until today we have seen a huge change in how coaches employ even their best offensive Dmen.

Although it's really early in his career I see only Karlsson as a threat to break into the top 10 or 15 of all time of guys currently playing. (okay maybe Letang as well for top 15 or 20 but it's an outside shot at best)

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04-07-2012, 05:27 PM
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jigglysquishy
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Up until Kelly the concept of an offensive d-man wasn't even real. Coaches forced D to stay back.

Kelly started the change, Orr blew it open, Coffey kept it alive. Now its very viable for coaches to expect output from d-men.

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04-07-2012, 05:43 PM
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MXD
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Kelly at 3rd and Pilote out of this makes no sense to me.

Besides... Kelly revolutionnized the game? Only in that he was a much better offensive player than Quackenbush, Reardon, Harmon or Egan (or others...) -- but it's hardly something Hollett, Shore, Cameron, or even Clancy, didn't pull up before.

Kelly was a bit more consistent from year-2-year, but I really think Pilote isn't far behind for his 3-4 VERY good seasons from an offence perspective.

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04-07-2012, 05:53 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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1. Orr
2. Coffey
3. Kelly
4. Shore
5. Potvin
6. Bourque
7. Pilote
8. Leetch
9. MacInnis
10. Gadsby/Park (too tough to tell them apart)

HMs: Lidstrom, Harvey, Clancy.

Fetisov and Suchy are the Europeans (hard to tell how they compare to North Americans). And there are Cleghorn, Cameron, and Boucher from the early era.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-07-2012 at 07:25 PM.
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Old
04-07-2012, 05:56 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Kelly at 3rd and Pilote out of this makes no sense to me.

Besides... Kelly revolutionnized the game? Only in that he was a much better offensive player than Quackenbush, Reardon, Harmon or Egan (or others...) -- but it's hardly something Hollett, Shore, Cameron, or even Clancy, didn't pull up before.

Kelly was a bit more consistent from year-2-year, but I really think Pilote isn't far behind for his 3-4 VERY good seasons from an offence perspective.
Yeah...but ''others'' include his two biggest competitors , which were Harvey and Gadsby.

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04-07-2012, 06:09 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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These are the only defensemen to finish top 10 in NHL scoring since 1926-27 (the first year after the last Western League folded):

Eddie Shore
1928-29 NHL 19 (10)
1932-33 NHL 35 (10)

Tom Anderson
1941-42 NHL 41 (8) (in his only season as a defenseman)

Red Kelly
1950-51 NHL 54 (9)
1952-53 NHL 46 (8)
1953-54 NHL 49 (6) (played forward for 1/4 of the season)

Bill Gadsby
1955-56 NHL 51 (9)

Pierre Pilote
1964-65 NHL 59 (8)

Bobby Orr
1969-70 NHL 120 (1)
1970-71 NHL 139 (2)
1971-72 NHL 117 (2)
1972-73 NHL 101 (3)
1973-74 NHL 122 (2)
1974-75 NHL 135 (1)

Brad Park
1973-74 NHL 82 (9)

Dennis Potvin
1977-78 NHL 94 (5)
1978-79 NHL 101 (7)

Paul Coffey
1983-84 NHL 126 (2)
1984-85 NHL 121 (5)
1985-86 NHL 138 (3)
1988-89 NHL 113 (6)
1989-90 NHL 103 (9)
1994-95 NHL 58 (6)

Ray Bourque
1986-87 NHL 95 (9)

Al MacInnis
1990-91 NHL 103 (9)

Brian Leetch
1991-92 NHL 102 (9)

Erik Karlsson
2011-12 NHL 78 (10) (with one game left)

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04-07-2012, 06:16 PM
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LeBlondeDemon10
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IMO Harvey ranks up there with the best, maybe top 5. He was one of the few, if not the only, rushing defense man of his era. Aside from Kelly, that's a long stretch of time between Shore and Orr. He also had the ability to control the tempo of the game. Coffey or MacInnis did not possess this quality among their other fine skills.

Orr
Harvey
Coffey
Potvin
Shore
Bourque
Leetch
Robinson
Lidstrom
Kelly

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04-07-2012, 06:41 PM
  #13
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
IMO Harvey ranks up there with the best, maybe top 5. He was one of the few, if not the only, rushing defense man of his era. Aside from Kelly, that's a long stretch of time between Shore and Orr. He also had the ability to control the tempo of the game. Coffey or MacInnis did not possess this quality among their other fine skills.

Orr
Harvey
Coffey
Potvin
Shore
Bourque
Leetch
Robinson
Lidstrom
Kelly
Is this in order? Because there is just no logical way you could offensively rank Doug Harvey above Red Kelly.Doug Harvey was a better PP quarterback than Red Kelly , but wasn't as good of a ''rushing'' defenseman than Gadsby and Kelly , and Kelly was simply the best EV producer , by far.Their career overlapsed and Kelly simply dominated Harvey offensively , I even question myself if Gadsby didn't as well.

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04-07-2012, 07:22 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
IMO Harvey ranks up there with the best, maybe top 5. He was one of the few, if not the only, rushing defense man of his era. Aside from Kelly, that's a long stretch of time between Shore and Orr. He also had the ability to control the tempo of the game. Coffey or MacInnis did not possess this quality among their other fine skills.

Orr
Harvey
Coffey
Potvin
Shore
Bourque
Leetch
Robinson
Lidstrom
Kelly
And yet Red Kelly outscored Harvey by a fairly wide margin, while they played at the same time. And Bill Gadsby scored at a similar pace as Harvey (and has the best peak offensive season between the two) while playing with significantly inferior forwards.

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04-07-2012, 08:14 PM
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ted1971
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No Mark Howe anywhere?

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04-07-2012, 08:17 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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No Mark Howe anywhere?
I can't see it. I don't see him as good as Coffey, Potvin, Bourque, MacInnis, Leetch, (or Park), and how many guys from the same time period can you have?

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04-07-2012, 08:20 PM
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Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1. Orr
2. Coffey
3. Kelly
4. Shore
5. Potvin
6. Bourque

7. Pilote
8. Leetch
9. MacInnis
10. Gadsby/Park (too tough to tell them apart)

HMs: Lidstrom, Harvey, Clancy.

Fetisov and Suchy are the Europeans (hard to tell how they compare to North Americans). And there are Cleghorn, Cameron, and Boucher from the early era.
I know from the Top 60 Defensemen project that you rank Bourque a decent amount ahead of Potvin...is he really that much better defensively to make up for an offensive edge Potvin has? My thoughts on these two are that when you look at peak or short prime they are relatively close, but Bourque's incredible longevity puts him ahead (comfortably). I can see ranking Potvin ahead offensively when talking peak or short prime, but was he really that much better to make up for all those extra elite seasons Bourque has offensively?

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04-07-2012, 08:24 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I know from the Top 60 Defensemen project that you rank Bourque a decent amount ahead of Potvin...is he really that much better defensively to make up for an offensive edge Potvin has? My thoughts on these two are that when you look at peak or short prime they are relatively close, but Bourque's incredible longevity puts him ahead (comfortably). I can see ranking Potvin ahead offensively when talking peak or short prime, but was he really that much better to make up for all those extra elite seasons Bourque has offensively?
I guess I mentally separated offense, defense, and durability/consistency when I rated Potvin ahead of Bourque offensively (same thing with Leetch/MacInnis). Bourque easily beats Potvin in durability and consistency.

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04-07-2012, 08:31 PM
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Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I guess I mentally separated offense, defense, and durability/consistency when I rated Potvin ahead of Bourque offensively (same thing with Leetch/MacInnis). Bourque easily beats Potvin in durability and consistency.
It makes sense if that was your thinking then. I'm not sure I agree with it (I think consistency/durability is a component of both offense and defense rather than a separate entity), but I follow your logic.

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04-07-2012, 09:03 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Yeah don't put too much weight on durability for offense , but at least a decently long career should be necessary.

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04-07-2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1. Orr
2. Coffey
3. Kelly
4. Shore
5. Potvin
6. Bourque
7. Pilote
8. Leetch
9. MacInnis
10. Gadsby/Park (too tough to tell them apart)

HMs: Lidstrom, Harvey, Clancy.

Fetisov and Suchy are the Europeans (hard to tell how they compare to North Americans). And there are Cleghorn, Cameron, and Boucher from the early era.
I started making a list and then realised it was pretty much identical to yours heh, a little different order maybe but that's about it.
Although I would include Howe as an HM. I have him ahead of both Lidstrom and Harvey on a strictly offensive level.

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04-07-2012, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
No Mark Howe anywhere?
Mark Howe had the potential to be in the top 10, but he wasn't the same after his gruesome injury in the 80-81 season.

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04-07-2012, 10:01 PM
  #23
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Fetisov should certainly be up there. Incredible first pass and great vision.

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04-07-2012, 10:06 PM
  #24
Dennis Bonvie
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1. Orr
2. Coffey
3. Leetch
4. MacInnis
5. Potvin
6. Housley
7. Kelly
8. Bourque
9. Shore
10. Fetisov

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04-08-2012, 12:05 AM
  #25
Hardyvan123
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Not sure if guys are ranking peak, prime or career here but a couple of guys came up that weren't consistent offensive threats in their careers, most notably Robinson, Pilote and Fetisov.

Sure it's hard to rank for era and how Dmen were used by their coaches over time but starting fast out of the gates (and staying power is what really separates the great offensive Dmen IMO.

I'm surprised no one has made a pitch for Hod Stuart yet.

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