4 years of "retooling" and we have done worse. 5 points worse than last season, a point worse than burke's very first season. Cmon man... how can people support Burke after ZERO improvement in the END PRODUCT. Forget prospects, names on paper, assistant coaches, blah blah blah.. It is the final end product (playoff appearances/winning playoff rounds/being a cup contender, etc etc) that matters. Nothing else.
0 improvement in the standings = absolute failure.
During this time span, it would have made much much much more sense to have gone through a proper rebuild.
And lastly before anyone mentions our prospects, consider that the maximum potential in the marlies is likely a 2nd liner... more likely expect to have stacked depth for our 3rd line and nothing more.
The NHL owes the Leafs. We help the struggling franchises using our own money and we have a GM that is always in support of the league and we haven't been in the playoffs in 7 years and we finally have our own 1st round pick in lottery position. They are going to rig the lottery for us to win it. Then we pick Yakupov, sign schultz, trade all of LACK in the offseason, get Getzlaf, sign Suter, get Vokoun, trade Phaneuf & schenn + extras.
Quote:
Lupul - Getzlaf - Kessel
Kadri - Grabovski - Yakupov
Kulemin - Bozak - MacA
Ross - Steckel - Brown
Completely new team. Burke becomes hero. We win the Winter Classic and HBO 24/7 gets biggest ratings ever. We get into the playoffs as 4th seed. We beat the penguins (4-2) in the first round. then we beat Boston (4-0) then we face NYR and we win (4-3). Lastly we go to the Stanley Cup finals and defeat the Vancouver Canucks (4-0). Vancouver goes on a riot while we have our parade. Burke becomes a legend and we become a FA hotspot for years to come. We become a dynasty to.
The NHL owes the Leafs. We help the struggling franchises using our own money and we have a GM that is always in support of the league and we haven't been in the playoffs in 7 years and we finally have our own 1st round pick in lottery position. They are going to rig the lottery for us to win it. Then we pick Yakupov, sign schultz, trade all of LACK in the offseason, get Getzlaf, sign Suter, get Vokoun, trade Phaneuf & schenn + extras.
Completely new team. Burke becomes hero. We win the Winter Classic and HBO 24/7 gets biggest ratings ever. We get into the playoffs as 4th seed. We beat the penguins (4-2) in the first round. then we beat Boston (4-0) then we face NYR and we win (4-3). Lastly we go to the Stanley Cup finals and defeat the Vancouver Canucks (4-0). Vancouver goes on a riot while we have our parade. Burke becomes a legend and we become a FA hotspot for years to come. We become a dynasty to.
1. We did a complete re-build. Only Schenn, Grabo and Kulemin remain from the pre-Burke era
2. We were in a playoff position for 2/3 of the season. The epic collapse showed we have holes, but it also showed that we are somewhat better than what the standings say
3. We have a legit top line forward, a legit blue chip prospect, a legit potential no 1 defenseman, a stable captain with a cannon, and a ton of depth, in which the odds say at least a couple will exceed expectations
4. MOST IMPORTANTLY.... if we dont do the Kessel trade we still arent a playoff team, in fact we are probably more embarressing
The NHL owes the Leafs. We help the struggling franchises using our own money and we have a GM that is always in support of the league and we haven't been in the playoffs in 7 years and we finally have our own 1st round pick in lottery position. They are going to rig the lottery for us to win it. Then we pick Yakupov, sign schultz, trade all of LACK in the offseason, get Getzlaf, sign Suter, get Vokoun, trade Phaneuf & schenn + extras.
Completely new team. Burke becomes hero. We win the Winter Classic and HBO 24/7 gets biggest ratings ever. We get into the playoffs as 4th seed. We beat the penguins (4-2) in the first round. then we beat Boston (4-0) then we face NYR and we win (4-3). Lastly we go to the Stanley Cup finals and defeat the Vancouver Canucks (4-0). Vancouver goes on a riot while we have our parade. Burke becomes a legend and we become a FA hotspot for years to come. We become a dynasty to.
We can debate this for hours, but I think you will see some major retooling in the offseason. Wilson n Burke were friends yes, but different outlook on how a team should play. The players Burke had to get fit more into Wilsons system vs the system Burke preaches. Good bye McArthur, Connolly, bozak, lombardi, armstrong, among others. This team will keep their small guys who play big (grabo..) And get bigger and toughe to play against while keeping a few smaller skilled guys (kessel, Kadri break out). Im not expecting miracles but a top 5 pick, a vet goalie, and maybe further maturation of our youth and a few vet/warriors will do wonders. This offseason defines Burkes time in Toronto. There will be no second chances
1. We did a complete re-build. Only Schenn, Grabo and Kulemin remain from the pre-Burke era
2. We were in a playoff position for 2/3 of the season. The epic collapse showed we have holes, but it also showed that we are somewhat better than what the standings say
3. We have a legit top line forward, a legit blue chip prospect, a legit potential no 1 defenseman, a stable captain with a cannon, and a ton of depth, in which the odds say at least a couple will exceed expectations
4. MOST IMPORTANTLY.... if we dont do the Kessel trade we still arent a playoff team, in fact we are probably more embarressing
This is all on paper. The end product shows 80 points which is down from Burke's 1st season and 5 points down from last season.
Look at st.louis.... no big names, yet they killed it. It's all about the end production and success is determined by:
There's no point in sugar coating things: We have stalled out under Brian Burke. Re-tooling has failed, the only chance we have to ever truly get better is a proper rebuild-which many fans have actually advocated for some time.
Fortunately though, we are well set up to start that proper rebuild with a 5th overall selection, and a budding star in Jake Gardiner already on our roster! Lets take our time, and do things right for once.
The NHL owes the Leafs. We help the struggling franchises using our own money and we have a GM that is always in support of the league and we haven't been in the playoffs in 7 years and we finally have our own 1st round pick in lottery position. They are going to rig the lottery for us to win it. Then we pick Yakupov, sign schultz, trade all of LACK in the offseason, get Getzlaf, sign Suter, get Vokoun, trade Phaneuf & schenn + extras.
Completely new team. Burke becomes hero. We win the Winter Classic and HBO 24/7 gets biggest ratings ever. We get into the playoffs as 4th seed. We beat the penguins (4-2) in the first round. then we beat Boston (4-0) then we face NYR and we win (4-3). Lastly we go to the Stanley Cup finals and defeat the Vancouver Canucks (4-0). Vancouver goes on a riot while we have our parade. Burke becomes a legend and we become a FA hotspot for years to come. We become a dynasty to.
1. We did a complete re-build. Only Schenn, Grabo and Kulemin remain from the pre-Burke era
2. We were in a playoff position for 2/3 of the season. The epic collapse showed we have holes, but it also showed that we are somewhat better than what the standings say
3. We have a legit top line forward, a legit blue chip prospect, a legit potential no 1 defenseman, a stable captain with a cannon, and a ton of depth, in which the odds say at least a couple will exceed expectations
4. MOST IMPORTANTLY.... if we dont do the Kessel trade we still arent a playoff team, in fact we are probably more embarressing
You've restored my faith that rational thinking can be found here. Kudos
This is all on paper. The end product shows 80 points which is down from Burke's 1st season and 5 points down from last season.
Look at st.louis.... no big names, yet they killed it. It's all about the end production and success is determined by:
1) Standings
2) Playoff finish
So we should have signed a bunch of veteran guys, traded our prospects for Nash, and we would have made the playoffs. That's not what we want, is it?
This season's collapse is all on the players. Burke showed he could make a team capable of reaching playoffs which is evident as the Leafs were in playoff spot 2/3rds of the season. Then the players collapsed.
Now tell me how Burke could have foreseen such a collapse.
1. We did a complete re-build. Only Schenn, Grabo and Kulemin remain from the pre-Burke era
2. We were in a playoff position for 2/3 of the season. The epic collapse showed we have holes, but it also showed that we are somewhat better than what the standings say
3. We have a legit top line forward, a legit blue chip prospect, a legit potential no 1 defenseman, a stable captain with a cannon, and a ton of depth, in which the odds say at least a couple will exceed expectations
4. MOST IMPORTANTLY.... if we dont do the Kessel trade we still arent a playoff team, in fact we are probably more embarressing
IIRC...
Gunnarsson and Frattin were also in the system. So that's more or less our entire second line, one of our first-pairing defenders, and Schenn who will hopefully bounce back.
Burke hasn't done a whole lot. Yeah we've got some decent prospects in the pipes, but no real elite talent (other than Gardiner, which was undoubtedly Burke's best trade).
So we should have signed a bunch of veteran guys, traded our prospects for Nash, and we would have made the playoffs. That's not what we want, is it?
This season's collapse is all on the players. Burke showed he could make a team capable of reaching playoffs which is evident as the Leafs were in playoff spot 2/3rds of the season. Then the players collapsed.
Now tell me how Burke could have foreseen such a collapse.
Burke signed LACK giving them all hefty deals, wtf is up with that? He also thought riemer was going to be a super star number 1 after such a small sample size of games... fix those mistakes for the better and collapse wouldnt have even happened.
Right now, lets just see what happens this off season. If we still look questionable (ie- predicted to finish in the basement again), then I think Burke is in big trouble.
If the leafs finish this low again next season, then I think whatever the hell it was Burke wanted to do to fix this team failed, and then he can be fired.
Let me ask you a question:
Is Nazem Kadri a better player now than at the end of last season?
According to you apparently not, because his PPG in both the AHL and NHL got worse
That's a weak analogy. When you're the RICHEST team in the NHL and you're the ONLY team to have NOT made the playoffs since the lockout, that's a huge problem. Actually, being rich aside... having the biggest market aside.... just the fact we're the only team to have not made it + a 45 year cup drought, is beyond ridiculous and not acceptable.
People also need to look beyond the paper product... great example is the canadian 2006 olympic team. Great on paper, but horrible in reality. Just a bunch of old guys who had 0 energy and motivation to win but could annihilate any team on paper.
Burke signed LACK giving them all hefty deals, wtf is up with that? He also thought riemer was going to be a super star number 1 after such a small sample size of games... fix those mistakes for the better and collapse wouldnt have even happened.
Getting Lombardi got us Franson who is a good 5-6th defenseman with potential to be top 4. Other than that, I agree that they were bad signings. However, you have still failed to explain the foreseeing part.
Burke is in the same boat as Mcphee in Wsh, Wilson in Sj, good teams but can't make the jump because the players don't. I don't see anyone ragging on Wilson and Mcphee because they have assembled a good team but when push comes to shove, the players crack. It's in no way Burke's fault that the players decided they weren't going to play.
That's a weak analogy. When you're the RICHEST team in the NHL and you're the ONLY team to have NOT made the playoffs since the lockout, that's a huge problem. Actually, being rich aside... having the biggest market aside.... just the fact we're the only team to have not made it + a 45 year cup drought, is beyond ridiculous and not acceptable.
People also need to look beyond the paper product... great example is the canadian 2006 olympic team. Great on paper, but horrible in reality. Just a bunch of old guys who had 0 energy and motivation to win but could annihilate any team on paper.
Cap World. Having 5 NHL levels GM's can only do so much, and it may even be a handicap.
How is 45 years drought in any way relevant. Is Burke's thinking supposed to be effected by that?
How was the 2006 Olympic team great on paper? No Crosby, no Staal, no Spezza. McCabe, who was 4th in Norris voting that year only made it on as an injury replacement. And I also fail to see how that is relevant to what I said about Kadri
Right now, lets just see what happens this off season. If we still look questionable (ie- predicted to finish in the basement again), then I think Burke is in big trouble.
If the leafs finish this low again next season, then I think whatever the hell it was Burke wanted to do to fix this team failed, and then he can be fired.
What is there to do in the off season? The free agent market is thin. There isn't much available to get.
- Number 1 centre? Which teams actually want to sell their 1C ? And even if they do, there will be a hefty prospect price to pay.
- Nash? lol another phil kessel repeat except the guy probably will have 80% of the offensive output of kessel. oh ya the price will be much much heftier than what was paid for kessel.
- Goalie? Who is there to get? Some people still havent realized that vokoun is off the market. Any guy you bring in could very likely end up another raycroft/toskala ... borderline competent goalie will get ripped apart in toronto and turn into a mediocre goalie. Then we'll have lots of thread about the waste of talent in the price we paid for the goalie.
- Our draft pick? If it doesnt go for nash or some "1C" , galchenyuk wont be in the NHL next season and won't get going until like 2015.
So what exactly do we have to look forward to? Few to no available free agents who want to come to toronto? A goalie that'll turn into raycroft?
