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Foster Hewitt Divisional Quarterfinals: L'Equipe National vs. Cincinnati

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Old
04-11-2012, 03:38 PM
  #26
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
If opponents focus on harrassing Bathgate in transition, the line will have trouble gaining the zone with speed much more often than that, in my opinion, especially against stud checking LWs. That's why I said to begin with that I think it would be wise for opponents to send their top checkers against the Bathgate line. If you'd pull your ****ing fingers out of your ears, you might have figured out what I was saying back when I said it originally.



Only one GM in this series proclaimed his team flawless in the assassination thread. To be perfectly honest, I think this is the worst Eagle team I've seen in my years in the ATD, and I think yours is the better squad. I didn't criticize Cincinatti because of ATD politics; I did so because you were asking for it.
If you pulled the blinders away from your eyes, you would have noticed that I proclaimed my team had "No major weaknesses" which was said in the previous assassination I received from Hedberg.

I would quote his assassination if I could but I am unable to at the moment.

Please direct me to my quote referring to my team as "flawless" or is that an exaggeration of what I said.

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04-11-2012, 03:41 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
If opponents focus on harrassing Bathgate in transition, the line will have trouble gaining the zone with speed much more often than that, in my opinion, especially against stud checking LWs. That's why I said to begin with that I think it would be wise for opponents to send their top checkers against the Bathgate line. If you'd pull your ****ing fingers out of your ears, you might have figured out what I was saying back when I said it originally.

.
By all means, I would love that. Leaving Mikita and Co. to feast on opposing top lines would make my day.

I'm pretty sure several GM's saw you post this and it was said that you would be crazy to deploy this tactic.

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04-11-2012, 03:57 PM
  #28
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both teams have more defensive minded coaches, so matchups are probably not as important, but they are still important.

what matchups does each team want?



Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
You're arguement is that what? 25/30% of the time when Bathgate can't gane the zone with speed (Which is what he was known for) is that Rick Macleish is unable to forcheck and or "hang back" and clog up the neutral zone?

I am reading this correctly?

Honest to god
i cannot think of any team or player who was able to gain the offensive blueline with speed against lemaire's trap 70-75% of the time.

trap is a very important subject in this series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Czechoslovakia used a left wing lock, at least for international tournaments.

It's fairly well known that Bathgate didn't fit it well with Toronto for whatever reason, despite winning a Cup there, he was traded away soon thereafter.

Is there evidence that Green could coach both ways? It's possible that he coached around his team's strengths in Ottawa.
yes

i know that green sometimes had ottawa play offensively, but i don't think it was very often.

2 examples from my bio of nighbor:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto World: 1-24-1921
Manager Green changed his system Saturday night and caught the Toronto team flat-footed. Instead of laying his men back at the start of the match, the Ottawa coach opened up a cyclonic attack, and Ottawa had two goals in the bag before the Torontos steadied down.
page 8 of the link

ice was bad in that game, so it was not conducive to a speedy game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette: 1-31-1920
Throughout the 1st period, Manager Green kept his extra man near the defence, and it was evident, as Lalonde also lay back on the Canadien defence, that both were playing cautious hockey.
....
Ottawa Changed Tactics
With a fair lead (2-0), Ottawas then changed their tactics. Nighbor, instead of laying back to help out his defence, shot up into the play. Everything was immediately thrown into the attack and in a few minutes, the Canadiens cracked under the strain. Frank Nighbor dodged in himself and made it 3-0. Three minutes later, skating in on top of Darragh's shot, Nighbor recovered the rebound off Vezina, and made it 4-0. Canadiens then took a brace and Odie Cleghorn beat out Benedict from a sharp angle on Donald Smith's pass, but this failed to stop the irresistible Senators, and in a minute or so, Broadbent broke into the summary on a pass from Nighbor, making it 5-1. Each goal was scored from within a few feet, and Vezina had no chance to stop it, though he did block a score of others.
page 22 of the link

that report says ottawa played aggressively throughout, even near the end of the game when they had a huge lead. ottawa won 11-3.




other NHL teams of that era also regularly played passive defensive hockey. D was probably just a better approach when forward passing was illegal and players played 60 minutes. PCHA was more offensive of course.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I could care less if I win this series, give it to EB in 4.

Prove to me how Andy Bathgate could not play for Green and yet Cy Denney was able to. Save the "well he was playing with Nighbor BS because Bathgate is on a line with Prentice.
proving a negative is not really possible.

bathgate and denneny are different players and would not play the same in the same/similar circumstances just b/c they are both scorers.

guy lafleur was fairly similar to bathgate, and he famously chaffed under jacques lemaire's coaching.

kovalchuk is not a good defensive player, but liked lemaire very much.

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Old
04-11-2012, 04:07 PM
  #29
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"For whatever reason"

For whatever reason is not due to not wanting to play in a defensive system, "For Whatever reason" is because several of the players were against the amount of practices Punch Imlach would hold. It had absolutely nothing to do with Bathgate "Not being able to play defensively"
And if you don't believe me, hear it from the horses mouth instead:



If anything else, I really want to see some evidence showing that Bathgate was such a negative defensively.

Was it because he was the only offensive player for New York? And he had to be the primary, secondary and all the above for them offensively?

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04-11-2012, 04:09 PM
  #30
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArN7X_z8ecs

6:45-7:45

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04-11-2012, 04:11 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post


proving a negative is not really possible.

bathgate and denneny are different players and would not play the same in the same/similar circumstances just b/c they are both scorers.

guy lafleur was fairly similar to bathgate, and he famously chaffed under jacques lemaire's coaching.

kovalchuk is not a good defensive player, but liked lemaire very much.

You're telling me. that's what i've been asked to do for the past 3 weeks.

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04-11-2012, 04:11 PM
  #32
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Since you asked, mark. Interview with Dave Keon:

Quote:
The four Stanley Cup championships in the 60’s came with a downside, as far as Keon is concerned. 1964 will be forever remembered by Leafs fans for Bobby Baun’s overtime goal, scored on a broken ankle, against Detroit – however the man who wore #14 sees the year as a turning point for the organization. “I believe the trade of Bob Nevin and Dick Duff for Andy Bathgate was the start of the slide,” offered Keon. “If they had stayed, it would not have taken us 14 games to win the Cup. It was hard for Bathgate to play within our system.”
http://robyn14.tripod.com/davekeon/news.html

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04-11-2012, 04:18 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Since you asked, mark. Interview with Dave Keon:



http://robyn14.tripod.com/davekeon/news.html

Exactly, and then watch the above video at 6:45-7:45. There "system" was that Umlach wanted Bathgate to loose 8 or so pounds and he was injured and unable to do so. He voiced his opinion that he thought they were worn out from practicing too much and was then traded afterwards.


Is this how Bathgate was given his "poor defensive play" title? Because of the definition of "system".

There system was practicing 4 hours a day, it has nothing to do with style of play.

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04-11-2012, 04:19 PM
  #34
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*Their

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04-11-2012, 04:27 PM
  #35
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...this series is heating up.

although, with Green vs. Lemaire, you have to think this will be the least exciting series on ice.

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04-11-2012, 05:55 PM
  #36
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France has one of the best two way third lines in the draft and Lemaire has a history of giving massive minutes to his checking line. It'll be interested to hear the plan for dealing with Mikita and Bathgate in separate lines.

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04-11-2012, 06:34 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Exactly, and then watch the above video at 6:45-7:45. There "system" was that Umlach wanted Bathgate to loose 8 or so pounds and he was injured and unable to do so. He voiced his opinion that he thought they were worn out from practicing too much and was then traded afterwards.


Is this how Bathgate was given his "poor defensive play" title? Because of the definition of "system".

There system was practicing 4 hours a day, it has nothing to do with style of play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
France has one of the best two way third lines in the draft and Lemaire has a history of giving massive minutes to his checking line. It'll be interested to hear the plan for dealing with Mikita and Bathgate in separate lines.


No response to this? Don't you think it's pretty unfair you were flawing Bathgates defensive game for this misinterpretation of "system"


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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
...this series is heating up.

although, with Green vs. Lemaire, you have to think this will be the least exciting series on ice.
Again, I could honestly care less, give EB the sweep. I'll be in Europe in roughly 10 days with next to no internet access.

I'd rather have him take the series and be able to make his arguements. I just want guys like Bathgate to get a fair shake in this, he is being criminally portrayed.

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04-11-2012, 06:43 PM
  #38
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Quote:
No response to this? Don't you think it's pretty unfair you were flawing Bathgates defensive game for this misinterpretation of "system"
I don't really have much more to add. Dave Keon thought Bathgate couldn't fit into Toronto's system. Andy Bathgate apparently thought the problem was that Punch Imlach had them practice too hard and too often. That whole LOH segment is weird though - they insinuate Imlach brought Bathgate in as part of a "win now" scheme to save his job, but the Leafs had just won two Cups in a row; why would Punch's job be in jeopardy?

Regardless, Bathgate's stats were quite a bit worse in Toronto than NY.

I'm not particularly interested in researching it further right now

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04-11-2012, 07:41 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't really have much more to add. Dave Keon thought Bathgate couldn't fit into Toronto's system. Andy Bathgate apparently thought the problem was that Punch Imlach had them practice too hard and too often. That whole LOH segment is weird though - they insinuate Imlach brought Bathgate in as part of a "win now" scheme to save his job, but the Leafs had just won two Cups in a row; why would Punch's job be in jeopardy?

Regardless, Bathgate's stats were quite a bit worse in Toronto than NY.

I'm not particularly interested in researching it further right now
If you guys are going to pick him apart (Like you are) at least try andunderstand what happened.

first of all toronto had a very slow start and Umlach wanted to inject some life into the team.

Bathgate had 18 points in 15 games to finish off the regular season when he got traded to Toronto.

His stats fell the next year because (if you watched that video) he was battling injuries all season and he felt worn out from the 4 hours a day practices with Umlach.

Again absolutely nothing regarding his defensive play.

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04-11-2012, 08:11 PM
  #40
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If you guys are going to pick him apart (Like you are) at least try andunderstand what happened.
.

Funny, I thought that's what we were doing

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04-11-2012, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
.

Funny, I thought that's what we were doing
You finished your closing statement with another incorrect statement and then said "I don't feel like researching it further"

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04-11-2012, 11:22 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
You finished your closing statement with another incorrect statement and then said "I don't feel like researching it further"
I said I didn't want to research it further because I didn't want to do your research for you.

You actually have an interesting case for Bathgate in Toronto. His production stayed the same after the trade in the 63-64 regular season and only declined in 64-65 due to injury issues.

But there are still:

1) Punch Inlach dumped him after only 2 years - ok, maybe explained by the fact that Bathgate wasn't an obsessive practicer and Punch was a dick anyway

2) Dave Keon thought he didn't fit the system - sour grapes by Keon because 5 of his friend/teammates were traded for Andy?

3) but what explains Andy's relatively weak playoff production in Toronto? The traditional answer is he never really fit into the system. Are you disputing that?

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04-12-2012, 01:01 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I said I didn't want to research it further because I didn't want to do your research for you.

You actually have an interesting case for Bathgate in Toronto. His production stayed the same after the trade in the 63-64 regular season and only declined in 64-65 due to injury issues.

But there are still:

1) Punch Inlach dumped him after only 2 years - ok, maybe explained by the fact that Bathgate wasn't an obsessive practicer and Punch was a dick anyway

2) Dave Keon thought he didn't fit the system - sour grapes by Keon because 5 of his friend/teammates were traded for Andy?

3) but what explains Andy's relatively weak playoff production in Toronto? The traditional answer is he never really fit into the system. Are you disputing that?
1.) Bathgate spoke out against Imlach's regiment, and tried to rally players to stand with him.

2.) Keon was made about Bathgate's attempted revolution.

3.) Broken finger at the end of season #2

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04-12-2012, 01:15 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
1.) Bathgate spoke out against Imlach's regiment, and tried to rally players to stand with him.

2.) Keon was made about Bathgate's attempted revolution.

3.) Broken finger at the end of season #2
So why the drop in production in playoff 1?

You seem to think Imlach was the problem, not his system

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04-12-2012, 07:13 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
1.) Bathgate spoke out against Imlach's regiment, and tried to rally players to stand with him.

2.) Keon was made about Bathgate's attempted revolution.

3.) Broken finger at the end of season #2

Bingo

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So why the drop in production in playoff 1?

You seem to think Imlach was the problem, not his system
9 points in 14 games? tied for 2nd in team goals, tied for 4th in playoff goals, scored the cup winning goal in game 7. It's pretty easy for a couple missed opportunities by Bathgates linemates to cost him an assist here or there. It's not as though he had 2 points in the playoffs. If you watch that video I posted they do nothing but praise his play during those playoffs.

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04-12-2012, 07:24 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I said I didn't want to research it further because I didn't want to do your research for you.

You actually have an interesting case for Bathgate in Toronto. His production stayed the same after the trade in the 63-64 regular season and only declined in 64-65 due to injury issues.

But there are still:

1) Punch Inlach dumped him after only 2 years - ok, maybe explained by the fact that Bathgate wasn't an obsessive practicer and Punch was a dick anyway


2) Dave Keon thought he didn't fit the system - sour grapes by Keon because 5 of his friend/teammates were traded for Andy?


3) but what explains Andy's relatively weak playoff production in Toronto? The traditional answer is he never really fit into the system. Are you disputing that?
That's exactly my understanding behind it. Duff and Nevin were both loved in the dressing room and guys like Keon (who must have been good buddies with them) held that against Bathgate.

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04-12-2012, 03:22 PM
  #47
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i think it would be useful to discuss something other than bathgate.


who will defend france's 1st line?

which team is better at defending the slot/front of its net?

how will france stop cincinnati's strong 1st unit of mikita/macinnis/laperriere?

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04-12-2012, 04:34 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i think it would be useful to discuss something other than bathgate.


who will defend france's 1st line?

which team is better at defending the slot/front of its net?

how will france stop cincinnati's strong 1st unit of mikita/macinnis/laperriere?
I promess tonight I'm making a stop in this thread! I've quite busy lately, but tonight I'll be throwing my thought on this series while watching the playoffs.

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04-12-2012, 07:53 PM
  #49
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First of all, good luck Cincinnati in this series.

I've seen alot of negative toward my choice of coach in Jacques Lemaire, mainly because both Frank Mahovlich and Milan Novy wouldn't fit in the style of play Lemaire likes to put on the ice. I disagree. First of all, I don't think Frank Mahovlich, although not a proverbial Lemaire's player, is a bad fit for l'equipe nationale de France. Mahovlich is not completely bare of defensive abilities. In Montreal, he was for a couple of years a decent defensive player who heavily played the penalty kill. That dosn't make him anything more than a below defensive winger in this league, but he isn't Maurice Richard either. So why Mahovlich was not working well in Toronto? Was it the system? I don't believe so. If you click my biography on Mahovlich and scroll down a bit, you will find my assessment on Mahovlich's situation in Toronto. I believe that Punch Imlach himself was the issue, and not the system he implemented. Mahovlich is viewed sometime as a selfish, offensive only player who was not a team player, and I believe this is inexact. As for Novy, he played in a more defensive system in Czechoslovakia, but I'll admit that it is more difficult to have a clear view on his defensive abilties. If anything, I don't see how one of the greatest coach of All-Time, helped with a great offensive minded coach in Frank Patrick, cannot implement a system that will involve the great offensive abilities of Frank Mahovlich, among others. Lemaire was able to get the best out of Ilya Kovalchuk, who was deemed a lost cause outside the offensive zone, I don't see how two players with more defensive abilties and intelligence in Novy and Mahovlich wouldn't be able to play in the system.

Now, into Nik questions:

2) I believe I have some great crease clearer in all three of my defensive pairing. I build my defensive squad into having strong defenceman who can let Hasek sees the shots and clear the rebounds. Both Vasiliev and Vasko are very imposent and strong defenceman who were known to be great crease clearer. I don't believe this will be an issue for l'equipe de France.

3) Having the home ice advantage, my main goal will be to have the unit of Metz-Backstrom-Curry-Vasiliev-Suchy to play against the first unit of Cincinnati whenever I can. Andy Bathgate is a very dangerous second line forward, but I believe Mikita is the best skater of this series, and flanked along two competent winger, it makes them the stongest unit for Cincinnati. I don't mind Cincinnati second line going head-to-head with my second line, as Paul Thompson will be confronted to Andy Bathgate.

I don't have much to say really. If anyone has question, I will try to assess them and will check the site nce a day (I'll try to!)

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04-16-2012, 05:38 PM
  #50
seventieslord
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Cincinnati prevails in 6 games.

stars of the series:

Hasek
Mikita
MacInnis
Crosby
Bathgate

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