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Old
04-14-2012, 10:40 PM
  #51
mjw22
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Giordano showed the most passion of all the Flames night in night out. The guy showed tons of emotion last year and this year. We need more guys like him on the Flames. The guy just hates losing, period.
Ya and Iggy not so much

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04-14-2012, 10:44 PM
  #52
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Stajan has proved he can play on the top line.
Yeah, on a non-playoff team, getting 50 odd points.

My cat could likely do the same.

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04-14-2012, 11:38 PM
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Yeah, on a non-playoff team, getting 50 odd points.

My cat could likely do the same.
do you just come here to complain about everything and make this place a worse experience for everyone else? because you sure as hell don't add anything constructive. Some of us actually cheer for the team and hope for the best and all you do is come and and point out how bad you think they are. if you don't like them there is another team 3 hours up the road, go grace them with your ever knowing presence

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04-15-2012, 12:06 AM
  #54
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I think the core of this group needs to change, I really do. It's been said before but we need a culture change and philosophical one. Flames fans and other fans knew this is where the flames would be.

But to think that, maybe if we hadn't blown 3 or 4 leads we'd be in the playoffs right now, or maybe if we'd won some ot/so games.

I think thats what ownership thinks, that if we're just a bit better we'll make it, so thats why they want a retool. When really the team needs a huge change in the dressing room.

All in all it was what I and others expected, a average pick and disappointing effort by the team. We definitely need to get rid of Bouwmeester, I'm sure that some teams will take him for a decent price.

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04-15-2012, 10:57 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Looking at the numbers, we did OK defensively, but it's probably attributed to Kippers' sensational 2.35 GAA and .921% considering we allowed so many shots against.

We were terrible offensively. We had only 4 players with 20 or more goals (Iggy, Glencross, Cammy, and Jokinen), while Tangs and Stempniak were our secondary scorers. Stajan, Comeau, Backlund, Kostopolous, Jones, Jackman, Moss, Horak, and Byron had less than 10 goals.

Most of our goal scorers clearly got them from the power play, because in every category we were terrible offensively except the power play.
Aren't the Flames a season or two removed from the flipside of that though? Where the team was scoring in bunches, but Kipper looked like crap.

I have a hunch it might be that it's not necessarily Kipper who is causing the low GA stat, but who is benefiting from it in his own personal statistics due to the more defensive play of the team.

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04-15-2012, 12:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Aren't the Flames a season or two removed from the flipside of that though? Where the team was scoring in bunches, but Kipper looked like crap.

I have a hunch it might be that it's not necessarily Kipper who is causing the low GA stat, but who is benefiting from it in his own personal statistics due to the more defensive play of the team.
it has happened like that every time the team opens up. They open up and Kipper's stats drop significantly. I don't think its just the system, but I think it plays a bigger part than many want to think. Which is why I wouldn't have an issue trading Kipper in a deal that included another goaltender that is pretty good. I would jump all over a Chicago offer that was Crawford, a 1st and McNeill for Kipper and a lesser pick/prospect

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04-15-2012, 02:17 PM
  #57
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My honest opinion is that the team isn't that bad... but they're not good. Thats been our problem for the past 6 years, and it will always will be, until we either sign players like zach parise, or give our "good" young guns a full time job in the NHL.

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04-16-2012, 12:30 PM
  #58
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If I had to pick one reason why the Flames are on the outside looking in would be their 5-16 OT/SO record. You can point fingers at many reasons for having so many games go into OT (faceoff percentage, coaching strategy, etc.) but that's nearly 20% of the games this season, and losing nearly 75% of those games won't get you very far...

Makes you wonder why the team would carry a goon around now and then (Desbiens, the trade for P3L, etc.) when a shootout specialist could have put them up another few points in the standings instead, possibly with a playoff berth.

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04-16-2012, 10:06 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Aren't the Flames a season or two removed from the flipside of that though? Where the team was scoring in bunches, but Kipper looked like crap.

I have a hunch it might be that it's not necessarily Kipper who is causing the low GA stat, but who is benefiting from it in his own personal statistics due to the more defensive play of the team.
Factor in the shots against. We were one of the worst team with shots against, but one of the more fair teams with goals against. A defensive team would not be so bad at shots against, and a it's no coincidence that Kipper had super numbers while receiving so many shots against (4th in the league). Especially when you factor in the fact that he had some blow-outs against him.

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04-16-2012, 10:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
If I had to pick one reason why the Flames are on the outside looking in would be their 5-16 OT/SO record. You can point fingers at many reasons for having so many games go into OT (faceoff percentage, coaching strategy, etc.) but that's nearly 20% of the games this season, and losing nearly 75% of those games won't get you very far...

Makes you wonder why the team would carry a goon around now and then (Desbiens, the trade for P3L, etc.) when a shootout specialist could have put them up another few points in the standings instead, possibly with a playoff berth.
No question. I was an advocate of a shoot-out coach late in the season because it was adding up to a lot of OT points lost.

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04-16-2012, 11:07 PM
  #61
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A few players I would like to give my qualitative evaluation on.

Jokinen - Great start to the season, but didn't have the same game down the stretch. He put up a lot of shots, broke 20 goals, and found to be a good two-way player. On the negatives, he was 151st in FO% among centremen, and he was terrible in the shoot-out. He could've been more physical and more sacrificial, as he didn't hit or block shots. But he was a key factor to a lot of our wins.

Bouwmeester - Surprisingly landed some hits, as he sits in 9th among Flames. Mind you that doesn't say much league wide, as we were 26th in hits, but better than Hannan oddly enough. He didn't score much, but he did block shots. He ate a lot of minutes, but was a horrendous -21 on the year. So he's bad and good at the same time. One good thing about Bouwmeester, however, is that he's always healthy, and he skates very well.

Cammalleri - Not bad at all coming to Calgary. Played both center and wing fairly well, and really to help our power play. He put up better numbers coming to Calgary, so he should return to form-ish next year. He was the only top six forward that was 50% in the shoot-out, although he only got 4 attempts. His biggest faults were his lack of hitting and blocking shots. But if he can stay healthy, he should help the team win games.

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04-17-2012, 01:32 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
A few players I would like to give my qualitative evaluation on.

Jokinen - Great start to the season, but didn't have the same game down the stretch. He put up a lot of shots, broke 20 goals, and found to be a good two-way player. On the negatives, he was 151st in FO% among centremen, and he was terrible in the shoot-out. He could've been more physical and more sacrificial, as he didn't hit or block shots. But he was a key factor to a lot of our wins.

Bouwmeester - Surprisingly landed some hits, as he sits in 9th among Flames. Mind you that doesn't say much league wide, as we were 26th in hits, but better than Hannan oddly enough. He didn't score much, but he did block shots. He ate a lot of minutes, but was a horrendous -21 on the year. So he's bad and good at the same time. One good thing about Bouwmeester, however, is that he's always healthy, and he skates very well.

Cammalleri - Not bad at all coming to Calgary. Played both center and wing fairly well, and really to help our power play. He put up better numbers coming to Calgary, so he should return to form-ish next year. He was the only top six forward that was 50% in the shoot-out, although he only got 4 attempts. His biggest faults were his lack of hitting and blocking shots. But if he can stay healthy, he should help the team win games.
In regards to Bouwmeester and +/-, you can't judge on +/- especially with top pairing defensemen because they play against other teams top players. Where as other defensemen face lesser offensive threats night in and night out.

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04-17-2012, 02:45 AM
  #63
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In regards to Bouwmeester and +/-, you can't judge on +/- especially with top pairing defensemen because they play against other teams top players. Where as other defensemen face lesser offensive threats night in and night out.
Ok. His +/- from the last 5 years, including 2 in Florida: -5,-2, -4, -2, -21

By comparison to similar cap/similar role D:

Dion Phaneuf, $6.5mm, -10
Dan Boyle, $6.6mm, +10
Zdeno Chara, $6.9mm, +33
Drew Doughty, $7.0mm, -2
Kimmo Timonen, $6.3mm, +8
Brian Campbell, $7.1mm, -9
Nicklas Lidstrom, $6.2mm, +21
Shea Weber, $7.5mm, +21

The only two players in this list that I'm not 100% on being top pairing guys with their respective teams are Boyle and Campbell. The only two players significantly below even are Campbell, noted for his defensive deficiencies, and Phaneuf. We know that story, don't we? All three are much more effective offensively than Bouwmeester.

Now I agree that +/-, especially for player evaluation, is not the greatest of stats. But you can't write it off as completely insignificant. Even the 5 year trend I used shows that this season's +/- is an anomoly, but for a player being paid the way he is, he's not even in the same ballpark as the players listed. And further, each of these players brings something significant to the table; physicality, dynamic offense, great shot, exceptional D. Aside from his skating, nothing really stands out to me about Jay. He's not overly physical, rarely aggressive in his own end, doesn't have a great shot, and personal opinion, I think he's overrated positionally.

Is he a terrible player? No, I don't think so, I think he had a terrible year. I hope he regains some of the offense he put up in Florida, maybe we bring in an offensive coach and he flourishes. This season though, was a total write-off for him.

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04-17-2012, 07:39 AM
  #64
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Ok. His +/- from the last 5 years, including 2 in Florida: -5,-2, -4, -2, -21
also consider that the last 5 years saw the ES goal differential on his teams be:
-3, +11, +9, +2, -22


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By comparison to similar cap/similar role D:

Dion Phaneuf, $6.5mm, -10
Dan Boyle, $6.6mm, +10
Zdeno Chara, $6.9mm, +33
Drew Doughty, $7.0mm, -2
Kimmo Timonen, $6.3mm, +8
Brian Campbell, $7.1mm, -9
Nicklas Lidstrom, $6.2mm, +21
Shea Weber, $7.5mm, +21

The only two players in this list that I'm not 100% on being top pairing guys with their respective teams are Boyle and Campbell. The only two players significantly below even are Campbell, noted for his defensive deficiencies, and Phaneuf. We know that story, don't we? All three are much more effective offensively than Bouwmeester.
comparing by pay grade is stupid but I will play along. I will also ignore that some of the guys you mentioned are regular Norris candidates

Toronto: -26, but if they use Phaneuf anything like we did its against 2nd tier players and lots upon lots of PP time.
San Jose: +9
Boston: +61
Los Angeles: +7
Philadelphia: +27
Florida: -23
Detroit: +41
Nashville: +13

+/- is a team stat. Phaneuf is the only anomaly on that list which is why I made a comment on him.

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Now I agree that +/-, especially for player evaluation, is not the greatest of stats. But you can't write it off as completely insignificant. Even the 5 year trend I used shows that this season's +/- is an anomoly, but for a player being paid the way he is, he's not even in the same ballpark as the players listed. And further, each of these players brings something significant to the table; physicality, dynamic offense, great shot, exceptional D. Aside from his skating, nothing really stands out to me about Jay. He's not overly physical, rarely aggressive in his own end, doesn't have a great shot, and personal opinion, I think he's overrated positionally.
Yes I can write it off as completely insignificant. I can do so because any mistake by any player on the ice that leads to a goal gives you a minus.

And as much as I have defended Butler this year everyone and their mother knows that he was in over his head as a shutdown defenseman, having a guy that is clearly in over his head will hurt your +/-, which also demonstrated by when Sutter thought Smith would be a good replacement for Butler, Bouwmeester was -7 after the Butler injury until the time her returned.

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Is he a terrible player? No, I don't think so, I think he had a terrible year. I hope he regains some of the offense he put up in Florida, maybe we bring in an offensive coach and he flourishes. This season though, was a total write-off for him.
This season was a write of for the team. Not just Bouwmeester. Bad teams bring down good players and bad coaches can bring down good teams.

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04-17-2012, 10:53 AM
  #65
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No question. I was an advocate of a shoot-out coach late in the season because it was adding up to a lot of OT points lost.
Additional coaching in this area (and faceoffs too) would help, but I was thinking along the lines of bringing in someone (like Huselius) who would basically take a third or fourth line role, but have some PP time and always participate in the shootout.

Hell - if Juice could be had for cheap in the off-season, I'd be okay if the Flames brought him back for just that purpose.

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04-17-2012, 12:07 PM
  #66
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Additional coaching in this area (and faceoffs too) would help, but I was thinking along the lines of bringing in someone (like Huselius) who would basically take a third or fourth line role, but have some PP time and always participate in the shootout.

Hell - if Juice could be had for cheap in the off-season, I'd be okay if the Flames brought him back for just that purpose.
I didn't hate Huselius, but I think him AND Tanguay are redundant and I'd take Tanguay ahead of him at this point. Our PP should be Glencross in front of the net, Giordano as QB, Iginla and Cammaleri as shooters and Tanguay on the half wall distributing. If we moved Tanguay I think he'd have value for us.

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04-17-2012, 08:00 PM
  #67
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also consider that the last 5 years saw the ES goal differential on his teams be:
-3, +11, +9, +2, -22
Fair enough.

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comparing by pay grade is stupid but I will play along. I will also ignore that some of the guys you mentioned are regular Norris candidates
If you read all of what I typed, I said similar cap hit in a similar role. That makes them pretty comparable, wouldn't you say? And why would you ignore the fact that some of them are regular Norris contenders, he's being compared with players that are both better and worse defensively, but again, playing the same role on their respective team. He's being paid to shut down the opponent, which most (again not sure on Campbell), if not all of that list are being paid to do the same. Who would you prefer I compare him to?

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Toronto: -26, but if they use Phaneuf anything like we did its against 2nd tier players and lots upon lots of PP time.
San Jose: +9
Boston: +61
Los Angeles: +7
Philadelphia: +27
Florida: -23
Detroit: +41
Nashville: +13

+/- is a team stat. Phaneuf is the only anomaly on that list which is why I made a comment on him.
Again, fair enough. Dion was used quite a bit as a top pairing guy for most of the year though. But like I said, we all know the story on him.

Another thing I didn't notice while putting that together, the two minus teams there are a non-playoff team, and a borderline playoff team. Probably not a coincidence.

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Yes I can write it off as completely insignificant. I can do so because any mistake by any player on the ice that leads to a goal gives you a minus.
And you can pick up a plus having stepped on the ice 2 seconds before a goal is scored. It goes both ways, and tends to even itself out over the course of a season. Its a flawed statistic, much like hits, but it is by no means insignificant. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it certainly tells a chapter or two.

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And as much as I have defended Butler this year everyone and their mother knows that he was in over his head as a shutdown defenseman, having a guy that is clearly in over his head will hurt your +/-, which also demonstrated by when Sutter thought Smith would be a good replacement for Butler, Bouwmeester was -7 after the Butler injury until the time her returned.
-7 of a total -21 on the season. Its not like being paired with Smith somehow ruined his season, he was on a pretty awful pace anyway. You say +/- is more of a team stat, well your team is not going to be very successful when your top defenseman is a team worst, regardless of his competition relative to his teammates. The guy is paid to shut down the opposition, its quite simple to see that he's failing to do so. You cannot possibly tell me that you weren't often frustrated with a play of his in his own end that lead to a goal against.

I agree though about Butler, I thought he did fine for being fairly overmatched all year.

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This season was a write of for the team. Not just Bouwmeester. Bad teams bring down good players and bad coaches can bring down good teams.
Whole-heartedly agree. Very few bright spots this year.

Your last sentance... what? Am I reading that wrong, or are you trying to place the blame squarely on Sutter? Don't get me wrong, he definitely deserves some of the blame for the year(s), but this team has been trending downward overall since the lockout. Personnel decisions, line-up decisions, and aging/underachieving players combined with a lack of talent are to blame, it can't go on any one person.

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04-17-2012, 08:39 PM
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If you read all of what I typed, I said similar cap hit in a similar role. That makes them pretty comparable, wouldn't you say? And why would you ignore the fact that some of them are regular Norris contenders, he's being compared with players that are both better and worse defensively, but again, playing the same role on their respective team. He's being paid to shut down the opponent, which most (again not sure on Campbell), if not all of that list are being paid to do the same. Who would you prefer I compare him to?
I read every word of what you typed. And as shown in the following point different quality teams score different amounts of goals, better teams also give up less odd man rushes and some teams will simply trap.

[QUOTE=DouglasQuaid;48273427]And you can pick up a plus having stepped on the ice 2 seconds before a goal is scored. It goes both ways, and tends to even itself out over the course of a season. Its a flawed statistic, much like hits, but it is by no means insignificant. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it certainly tells a chapter or two.[/QUOTEYour counter argument here shows why its even more flawed and completely useless without being able to analyze it deeper. The number in itself is nothing to me and never will be

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-7 of a total -21 on the season. Its not like being paired with Smith somehow ruined his season, he was on a pretty awful pace anyway. You say +/- is more of a team stat, well your team is not going to be very successful when your top defenseman is a team worst, regardless of his competition relative to his teammates. The guy is paid to shut down the opposition, its quite simple to see that he's failing to do so. You cannot possibly tell me that you weren't often frustrated with a play of his in his own end that lead to a goal against.
my point was 1/3 of his minus rating was accrued during 1/6 of the season (or 1 month), also he had 2 games at -5 during the season, so what does that tell you if -17 of his -21 can be accounted for in 2 games plus the time his regular partner was injured and he was paired with a career AHLer.

and if all shutdown defensemen shutdown all star forwards the star forwards wouldn't score now would they? this is where the forwards come in, on better teams the forwards have a much greater amount of possession time, I don't have stats on this but you know as well as i do we rarely carried the play and maintained possession for any length of time and its just common sense to realize that more puck possession for you equals less possession for them (and thus less scoring chances for them)

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I agree though about Butler, I thought he did fine for being fairly overmatched all year.
agreed, i think he was one of the few bright spots this year

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Your last sentance... what? Am I reading that wrong, or are you trying to place the blame squarely on Sutter? Don't get me wrong, he definitely deserves some of the blame for the year(s), but this team has been trending downward overall since the lockout. Personnel decisions, line-up decisions, and aging/underachieving players combined with a lack of talent are to blame, it can't go on any one person.
Oh you read it right. I think Brent Sutter is one of the worst coaches in franchise history and I find it appalling that he managed to keep his job for 3 years. I firmly believe a coach can make an incredible difference, just look at the Blues for a prime example.

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04-17-2012, 11:20 PM
  #69
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my point was 1/3 of his minus rating was accrued during 1/6 of the season (or 1 month), also he had 2 games at -5 during the season, so what does that tell you if -17 of his -21 can be accounted for in 2 games plus the time his regular partner was injured and he was paired with a career AHLer.
Its pretty hard to go -5 in a game, let alone twice in a season. You, and your team, have to be terrible on that night to pull that off. Which is one of my complaints about Bouwmeester. He's not the only guy in the world who you can say this about, but when he has a bad game, he takes it to another level. He can have some absolutely awful games.

To be fair, I was really impressed with him early in the year, I was honestly surprised to see a -21 beside his name. He, along with a few key others, was brutal down the stretch though. Just noticibly bad.

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and if all shutdown defensemen shutdown all star forwards the star forwards wouldn't score now would they? this is where the forwards come in, on better teams the forwards have a much greater amount of possession time, I don't have stats on this but you know as well as i do we rarely carried the play and maintained possession for any length of time and its just common sense to realize that more puck possession for you equals less possession for them (and thus less scoring chances for them)
We got outplayed as a team quite a bit, yes. This comes back to the real lack of talent on the team, or at least bad mix of guys. Coaching too. That was the point in listing both offensive and defensive defensemen who are used on their teams top pairing. Guys like Boyle benefit from being on a more offensive team, but you'd expect the case to be that a team playing that style would give up more quality scoring chances, especially against an opponent's top players.

The only two significant minus players listed were known to be defensively suspect, and on bad teams. Jay is expected to be the defensive rock of this team with Regehr gone, and he was significantly worse than them. You think +/- is totally useless, but I think it tells us, at the very least, he had a bad year. Not the only one by any stretch, but he's one guy who really stood out in a bad way to me.

I know you think its stupid to compare players by cap hit, but its a cap world. Contract value has a lot to do with team success, and he really didn't measure up to his competition at all. Again I don't think he's a terrible player, he had a terrible year. But for this team to succeed, he needs to be much better.

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Oh you read it right. I think Brent Sutter is one of the worst coaches in franchise history and I find it appalling that he managed to keep his job for 3 years. I firmly believe a coach can make an incredible difference, just look at the Blues for a prime example.
Brent is a good coach, his record in junior and in New Jersey, early playoff exits acknowledged, show what he can do. Some of his teams in Red Deer had no business at all doing what they did, and this is why I hoped the Flames would keep him around if they rebuilt. He's amazing with young players. I think this is why we saw the team come to life with all the kids up. I agree with letting him go however, seeing as the team is going to keep pushing with what they have, he was admittedly a bad fit for this team though it didn't see like he would be when he was hired, imo. I really think we're going to hate it if the Oilers sign him.

Definitely the right coach can make a difference, but this team hasn't had a clear direction since Darryl was coaching. I guess I'm just as frustrated as everyone, honestly. Seeing the team play exceptionally offensively for a year, only to trim guys like a Bertuzzi (easy example, seems to be playing quite well on a pretty decent Detroit team) in favor of more defensive players, then go on to play well defensively the next season, but unable to score any goals. Then a new coach, and a new coach, and no real direction. Treading water. I'm sick of it.

This offseason should be exciting. GM making solid moves for the most part, new coach, potential for a lot of roster turnover. Potential to finally pick a direction. I just think we're gonna be saying the exact same things next offseason though, and that's killing my excitement.

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04-17-2012, 11:45 PM
  #70
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Brent is a good coach, his record in junior and in New Jersey, early playoff exits acknowledged, show what he can do. Some of his teams in Red Deer had no business at all doing what they did, and this is why I hoped the Flames would keep him around if they rebuilt. He's amazing with young players. I think this is why we saw the team come to life with all the kids up. I agree with letting him go however, seeing as the team is going to keep pushing with what they have, he was admittedly a bad fit for this team though it didn't see like he would be when he was hired, imo. I really think we're going to hate it if the Oilers sign him.

Definitely the right coach can make a difference, but this team hasn't had a clear direction since Darryl was coaching. I guess I'm just as frustrated as everyone, honestly. Seeing the team play exceptionally offensively for a year, only to trim guys like a Bertuzzi (easy example, seems to be playing quite well on a pretty decent Detroit team) in favor of more defensive players, then go on to play well defensively the next season, but unable to score any goals. Then a new coach, and a new coach, and no real direction. Treading water. I'm sick of it.

This offseason should be exciting. GM making solid moves for the most part, new coach, potential for a lot of roster turnover. Potential to finally pick a direction. I just think we're gonna be saying the exact same things next offseason though, and that's killing my excitement.
I agree with you here . The last 3-5 years look a lot like the era we suffered through when Iggy got here .

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04-18-2012, 01:36 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasQuaid View Post
Brent is a good coach, his record in junior and in New Jersey, early playoff exits acknowledged, show what he can do. Some of his teams in Red Deer had no business at all doing what they did, and this is why I hoped the Flames would keep him around if they rebuilt. He's amazing with young players. I think this is why we saw the team come to life with all the kids up. I agree with letting him go however, seeing as the team is going to keep pushing with what they have, he was admittedly a bad fit for this team though it didn't see like he would be when he was hired, imo. I really think we're going to hate it if the Oilers sign him.

Definitely the right coach can make a difference, but this team hasn't had a clear direction since Darryl was coaching. I guess I'm just as frustrated as everyone, honestly. Seeing the team play exceptionally offensively for a year, only to trim guys like a Bertuzzi (easy example, seems to be playing quite well on a pretty decent Detroit team) in favor of more defensive players, then go on to play well defensively the next season, but unable to score any goals. Then a new coach, and a new coach, and no real direction. Treading water. I'm sick of it.

This offseason should be exciting. GM making solid moves for the most part, new coach, potential for a lot of roster turnover. Potential to finally pick a direction. I just think we're gonna be saying the exact same things next offseason though, and that's killing my excitement.
Brent is not a good coach. He's is not even in the realm of being a good coach (New Jersey fans said the same thing I am btw, he greatly underachieved there). A good coach can change to fit the strengths of his team and takes responsibility, Sutter did neither. He is one of the most stubborn coaches in the league and has a gift for making a player's offense just dry up. He misuses players on a regular basis, makes horrible decision in him scratches and fails to ***** the weaknesses of his team.

His system gets the team early leads but then he has guys sit back, I know he complains about it in the post game presser, but the guys in NJ did the same thing. Five years in the NHL and in every season the players did the same thing, that is the definition of a systematical problem, or a complete and utter lack of communication.

If the force feeding Regehr/Phaneuf pairing didn't tip you off that he was a bad coach, I am not sure what would because it was blatantly clear to everyone that those 2 hated each other and could not work with one another. Especially when he also had a Bouwmeester/Giordano pair playing together that was also not going over too well. What kind of stubborn moron do you have to be to not even try Bouwmeester with Phaneuf or Regehr?Sure he did the following year after Phaneuf was gone and White was traded too. That was some brilliant coaching.

He did the same thing with Jokinen and Iginla, he kept putting them together over and over and over again, while at times towards the end it wasn't horrible, it wasn't great either.

Let's not forget Kolanos and Kostopolous as 2nd liners while keeping Stajan buried on the 4th line. What the **** was that? Even Stajan haters were tired of seeing this.

I also have to ask this, how on earth does someone who juggles lines so frequently only decide to stick with pairings and line combinations when they aren't working?

Face facts Brent Sutter is as dumb as a sack of hammers and does not below coaching in the NHL. Maybe he is a good Junior coach, but so is Kevin Constantine and Don Hay

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04-18-2012, 03:31 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
A good coach can change to fit the strengths of his team and takes responsibility, Sutter did neither. He is one of the most stubborn coaches in the league and has a gift for making a player's offense just dry up. He misuses players on a regular basis, makes horrible decision in him scratches and fails to ***** the weaknesses of his team.
Adapt to the strengths of his team? Until we got Cammy back this year, this team had one legitimate scoring option. Tanguay-warm body-Iginla. Not even a full legitimate top line. Bourque, Glencross and Jokinen as legitimate second tier guys. A team of Glencross, Stajan, Kosto and Jackman types is not going to win by playing any way but defensively sound, with a strong forecheck.

Quote:
His system gets the team early leads but then he has guys sit back, I know he complains about it in the post game presser, but the guys in NJ did the same thing. Five years in the NHL and in every season the players did the same thing, that is the definition of a systematical problem, or a complete and utter lack of communication.
The guy constantly complained about the team's lack of commitment, and players sitting back. Either he was telling them to sit back then selling them out to the media when it didn't work; they were sitting back, ignoring their coach and still being rewarded with their regular icetime; or they simply didn't have the legs to keep the pressure on, or the skill level to build on existing leads with consistency. Which of these options seems the most likely?

Quote:
If the force feeding Regehr/Phaneuf pairing didn't tip you off that he was a bad coach, I am not sure what would because it was blatantly clear to everyone that those 2 hated each other and could not work with one another. Especially when he also had a Bouwmeester/Giordano pair playing together that was also not going over too well. What kind of stubborn moron do you have to be to not even try Bouwmeester with Phaneuf or Regehr?Sure he did the following year after Phaneuf was gone and White was traded too. That was some brilliant coaching.

He did the same thing with Jokinen and Iginla, he kept putting them together over and over and over again, while at times towards the end it wasn't horrible, it wasn't great either.
He tried splitting them up before the trade, Bouwmeester/Regehr and Phaneuf/Giordano. Giordano/Bouwmeester didn't look too bad honestly (from what I remember), but at that point Phaneuf looked brutal with anyone. Maybe he tried it longer/more times than he needed to, but your best players should play with your best players. Its no coincidence that Regehr looked 100 times better after the Phaneuf trade either, the guy had to cover the entire defensive zone while Phaneuf stood in front of the net watching the play, completely lost.

I do remember the arguement with those pairings at the time was that Gio jumped up too much forcing Bouwmeester to have to cover and not use his speed, and he got that big contract for the offense he could bring with that speed. Then when it was Regehr/Bouwmeester and Phaneuf/Giordano, Bo's role had changed too much to be part of a shutdown pairing, so it was Sutter who wasn't letting him rush the puck. Gio couldn't rush because he had to cover for Phaneuf too much. I really think Dion was just the square peg for that top 4's round holes. Every pairing that failed miserably had him as one half of it.

I think using the excuse that they hated each other is such a cop out as well. These guys are grown men, and professional athletes. You don't have to be best friends to play well together.

Quote:
Let's not forget Kolanos and Kostopolous as 2nd liners while keeping Stajan buried on the 4th line. What the **** was that? Even Stajan haters were tired of seeing this.
Stajan had had his shot in the top 6 in the past, and aside with the odd flash playing with Iggy, was wildly underwhelming. He tried Kostopolous because he played with Cammy in the minors. I agree that Kostopolous should be nowhere near anyone's top 6, but it was worth a shot. Kolanos, with his complete lack of speed, didn't really fit anywhere on the team to be honest.

I was also one of the people wanting to see Stajan given his shot before even the second period of Kosto in the top 6 for the record, just saying I can see where he was coming from. Not a great idea, but it wasn't like the roster was loaded with options at that point.

I did also mention poor line-up management as a cause for the team's lack of success in a previous post, so I'm not totally against you here. Brent is by no means a perfect coach, and I even admitted he wasn't a good fit for the roster in hindsight. And I agree he made some questionable and risky moves that didn't pan out. But the worst coach in franchise history? I disagree.

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04-18-2012, 09:19 AM
  #73
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Brent is not a good coach. He's is not even in the realm of being a good coach (New Jersey fans said the same thing I am btw, he greatly underachieved there). A good coach can change to fit the strengths of his team and takes responsibility, Sutter did neither. He is one of the most stubborn coaches in the league and has a gift for making a player's offense just dry up. He misuses players on a regular basis, makes horrible decision in him scratches and fails to ***** the weaknesses of his team.

His system gets the team early leads but then he has guys sit back, I know he complains about it in the post game presser, but the guys in NJ did the same thing. Five years in the NHL and in every season the players did the same thing, that is the definition of a systematical problem, or a complete and utter lack of communication.

If the force feeding Regehr/Phaneuf pairing didn't tip you off that he was a bad coach, I am not sure what would because it was blatantly clear to everyone that those 2 hated each other and could not work with one another. Especially when he also had a Bouwmeester/Giordano pair playing together that was also not going over too well. What kind of stubborn moron do you have to be to not even try Bouwmeester with Phaneuf or Regehr?Sure he did the following year after Phaneuf was gone and White was traded too. That was some brilliant coaching.

He did the same thing with Jokinen and Iginla, he kept putting them together over and over and over again, while at times towards the end it wasn't horrible, it wasn't great either.

Let's not forget Kolanos and Kostopolous as 2nd liners while keeping Stajan buried on the 4th line. What the **** was that? Even Stajan haters were tired of seeing this.

I also have to ask this, how on earth does someone who juggles lines so frequently only decide to stick with pairings and line combinations when they aren't working?

Face facts Brent Sutter is as dumb as a sack of hammers and does not below coaching in the NHL. Maybe he is a good Junior coach, but so is Kevin Constantine and Don Hay
All I have to say is that if Brent goes to EDM, look the **** out! They are going to be a dynamite team if they can fill a hole or two on the backend and stay healthy. I agree, Brent is not flexible to the team dynamic and that is a huge fault of his. But he has a great track record with developing youth quickly. I really hope EDM skips over his resume.

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04-18-2012, 08:44 PM
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All I have to say is that if Brent goes to EDM, look the **** out! They are going to be a dynamite team if they can fill a hole or two on the backend and stay healthy. I agree, Brent is not flexible to the team dynamic and that is a huge fault of his. But he has a great track record with developing youth quickly. I really hope EDM skips over his resume.
that is a myth. look at his time in Red Deer and look at the players he developed. there is very few that have turned out to be much more than decent NHLers

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04-18-2012, 09:11 PM
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Medium rare has a real sutter hate on could be 1/2 the blame goes to the so called "core " players

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