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Old
04-18-2012, 09:14 PM
  #76
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by mjw22 View Post
Medium rare has a real sutter hate on could be 1/2 the blame goes to the so called "core " players
Yea dam the 34 year old and 35 year old for not carrying the rest to the playoffs

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04-18-2012, 10:04 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
that is a myth. look at his time in Red Deer and look at the players he developed. there is very few that have turned out to be much more than decent NHLers
Exactly.

Another thing that enhanced this myth is the fact that he went 14-0 over 2 years with the WJC and also 7-0-1 in the series against the Russians. Good on him, he did a great job there. But let's draw the right conclusions:

Did he develop these kids? No, he merely coached them in 3 short tournaments.

In retrospect, it is clear that what he did was very similar to what he did here: he demanded that they all play his way. And in a short series, that's great - there is no major need for adjustment, just get them playing the way you want them to as quickly as possible.

And kids just want to be there, they WANT to do whatever the coach says. With the most talented team, and an unbridled passion from all of them on every shift, the best thing a coach can do is get a system implemented as quickly as possible and just keep rolling it. And that's exactly what he did.

And he did a fabulous job of it.

But coaching in the NHL is ALL about adjustment, and maximizing the assets that you have. He did neither well.

Nor did he handle the kids well. Did he do a good job developing Backlund? Dawes? Pardy? Nemisz? Byron? Kolanos? Horak? (Horak made the team out of camp, but did he develop over the year under Sutter?)

Did he handle Brodie well in his first stint here?

I am not trying to kick him, I just want to know where this 'develops young players well' comes in, because I have never seen it.

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Old
04-18-2012, 10:15 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Yea dam the 34 year old and 35 year old for not carrying the rest to the playoffs
It starts with Iggy a no show until Dec and then disappears in April. Add Jbo Jokinen and to a degree Tanguay and Glencross . Hard to follow a leader who doesn't or can't show up for 30 % of the season .Blaming the 3rd and 4th liners is sad because most belong in the minors.

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04-18-2012, 10:17 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by mjw22 View Post
It starts with Iggy a no show until Dec and then disappears in April. Add Jbo Jokinen and to a degree Tanguay and Glencross . Hard to follow a leader who doesn't or can't show up for 30 % of the season .Blaming the 3rd and 4th liners is sad because most belong in the minors.
Wait half are team is suppose to be in the minors but we should have made the playoffs I am excited knowing that the top 6 carried 6 ahlers that close to the playoffs.

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04-19-2012, 01:25 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DouglasQuaid View Post
Adapt to the strengths of his team? Until we got Cammy back this year, this team had one legitimate scoring option. Tanguay-warm body-Iginla. Not even a full legitimate top line. Bourque, Glencross and Jokinen as legitimate second tier guys. A team of Glencross, Stajan, Kosto and Jackman types is not going to win by playing any way but defensively sound, with a strong forecheck.



The guy constantly complained about the team's lack of commitment, and players sitting back. Either he was telling them to sit back then selling them out to the media when it didn't work; they were sitting back, ignoring their coach and still being rewarded with their regular icetime; or they simply didn't have the legs to keep the pressure on, or the skill level to build on existing leads with consistency. Which of these options seems the most likely?



He tried splitting them up before the trade, Bouwmeester/Regehr and Phaneuf/Giordano. Giordano/Bouwmeester didn't look too bad honestly (from what I remember), but at that point Phaneuf looked brutal with anyone. Maybe he tried it longer/more times than he needed to, but your best players should play with your best players. Its no coincidence that Regehr looked 100 times better after the Phaneuf trade either, the guy had to cover the entire defensive zone while Phaneuf stood in front of the net watching the play, completely lost.

I do remember the arguement with those pairings at the time was that Gio jumped up too much forcing Bouwmeester to have to cover and not use his speed, and he got that big contract for the offense he could bring with that speed. Then when it was Regehr/Bouwmeester and Phaneuf/Giordano, Bo's role had changed too much to be part of a shutdown pairing, so it was Sutter who wasn't letting him rush the puck. Gio couldn't rush because he had to cover for Phaneuf too much. I really think Dion was just the square peg for that top 4's round holes. Every pairing that failed miserably had him as one half of it.

I think using the excuse that they hated each other is such a cop out as well. These guys are grown men, and professional athletes. You don't have to be best friends to play well together.



Stajan had had his shot in the top 6 in the past, and aside with the odd flash playing with Iggy, was wildly underwhelming. He tried Kostopolous because he played with Cammy in the minors. I agree that Kostopolous should be nowhere near anyone's top 6, but it was worth a shot. Kolanos, with his complete lack of speed, didn't really fit anywhere on the team to be honest.

I was also one of the people wanting to see Stajan given his shot before even the second period of Kosto in the top 6 for the record, just saying I can see where he was coming from. Not a great idea, but it wasn't like the roster was loaded with options at that point.

I did also mention poor line-up management as a cause for the team's lack of success in a previous post, so I'm not totally against you here. Brent is by no means a perfect coach, and I even admitted he wasn't a good fit for the roster in hindsight. And I agree he made some questionable and risky moves that didn't pan out. But the worst coach in franchise history? I disagree.
I get it, you think Sutter is a good coach who is very little of the problem. I think he is a useless sack of **** that should be lit on fire and tossed on someone's stoop, for Kevin Lowe to stomp on.

You can see past the fact that so many players had a significant decline in production under Sutter, I can not. You can see past Sutter force feeding bad combinations, I can not.

IMO Sutter is among the worst coaches in franchise history (I never said the worst, just one of), he is a black eye on this franchise and deserves all the blame he gets.

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04-19-2012, 03:18 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
I get it, you think Sutter is a good coach who is very little of the problem. I think he is a useless sack of **** that should be lit on fire and tossed on someone's stoop, for Kevin Lowe to stomp on.

You can see past the fact that so many players had a significant decline in production under Sutter, I can not. You can see past Sutter force feeding bad combinations, I can not.

IMO Sutter is among the worst coaches in franchise history (I never said the worst, just one of), he is a black eye on this franchise and deserves all the blame he gets.
Again I don't totally disagree with you, he was certainly part of the problem. I just hate seeing him sold as THE reason this team failed, too many moving parts to blame just one.

Yes some players have seen their offensive outputs decrease. Iginla had 2 bad (for him) years out of 3, but he is getting older. Bouwmeester has fallen off since coming from Florida. Stajan's output has dropped, but I think that comes from 1st line time in Toronto to 3rd/4th line time here, though he filled in well in the top 6 late this year. Would have liked to see more from the Backlunds and Comeaus this year.

Don't forget though, that Tanguay and Jokinen have bounced back, Glencross would have scored 30 this year if not for injuries and Giordano really broke out under Sutter.

Its pretty clear I'll not sway your opinion of Sutter and that's totally fine. I just hope our next coach is actually a good fit for this team and can't find success, I'm sick of losing.

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Old
04-19-2012, 09:48 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DouglasQuaid View Post
Again I don't totally disagree with you, he was certainly part of the problem. I just hate seeing him sold as THE reason this team failed, too many moving parts to blame just one.

Yes some players have seen their offensive outputs decrease. Iginla had 2 bad (for him) years out of 3, but he is getting older. Bouwmeester has fallen off since coming from Florida. Stajan's output has dropped, but I think that comes from 1st line time in Toronto to 3rd/4th line time here, though he filled in well in the top 6 late this year. Would have liked to see more from the Backlunds and Comeaus this year.

Don't forget though, that Tanguay and Jokinen have bounced back, Glencross would have scored 30 this year if not for injuries and Giordano really broke out under Sutter.

Its pretty clear I'll not sway your opinion of Sutter and that's totally fine. I just hope our next coach is actually a good fit for this team and can't find success, I'm sick of losing.
He's not. Similarly, some have sold Iggy as the largest to blame. Some have sold it on secondary players, and even some have sold it on Feaster, King, D. Sutter, and/or ownership. Everybody has their opinion.

The current players that have been on this roster for the past 3 failing seasons are:
Iginla, Jokinen, Glencross, Bouwmeester, Stajan, Backlund, Giordano, Sarich, Moss, Kipper (45.4% of a 22 player roster)

Let's define these players as the core players, because these players, along with coach Sutter, are the common denominators to missing the playoffs.To truly break past the opinions and find fault, let's split the responsibility of those three seasons 50/50 between core players and the coach. That's fair.

Sutter has been the head coach for all 60 mins of a game, for all 246 games for the past 3 failing seasons, whereas the core player's have played an average of 201.1 games, and only on the ice for an average of 48.35 minutes per game (including Kipper's average ice time of 58:05 mins for all games in the past 3 seasons).

If the core players only play 81.74% of the past three seasons, and have controlled only 80.58% of those games (of the split responsibility), then the core players have a total of 32.93% responsibility for the failure of the past three seasons, meaning Sutter would have to carry the remaining 67.07% responsibility.

Sutter, in turn, burdens more blame than the core players for the past three seasons we missed the playoffs.

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Old
04-19-2012, 10:02 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DouglasQuaid View Post
Again I don't totally disagree with you, he was certainly part of the problem. I just hate seeing him sold as THE reason this team failed, too many moving parts to blame just one.

Yes some players have seen their offensive outputs decrease. Iginla had 2 bad (for him) years out of 3, but he is getting older. Bouwmeester has fallen off since coming from Florida. Stajan's output has dropped, but I think that comes from 1st line time in Toronto to 3rd/4th line time here, though he filled in well in the top 6 late this year. Would have liked to see more from the Backlunds and Comeaus this year.

Don't forget though, that Tanguay and Jokinen have bounced back, Glencross would have scored 30 this year if not for injuries and Giordano really broke out under Sutter.

Its pretty clear I'll not sway your opinion of Sutter and that's totally fine. I just hope our next coach is actually a good fit for this team and can't find success, I'm sick of losing.
there is lots of reasons the team failed, but Sutter is IMO the biggest single problem with the team. I think another coach gets us those few extra points to get into the playoffs.

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