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Old
05-31-2012, 04:26 PM
  #951
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
You folks are amazing. A 30th place team that no one wants to get rid of any of the pieces, including a prospect that couldn't crack the aforementioned 30th place team's roster on a regular basis. Accepting that Letestu is just fine as the team's second line center.

To get you have to give and to add the highly valuable Savard (if not make him the cornerstone and throw in Nash) to a deal to obtain the 1st overall pick and a couple of other high ranking prospects plus a player or two seems like a very smart thing to do.

Two of Yakupov,Galchenyuk,Murray,Forsberg or Savard. Hmmmm.
Trading our few valuable pieces for draft picks and betting on their hype to improve us immediately?

Are you sure you're not secretly Doug MacLean?

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Old
05-31-2012, 04:29 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Trading our few valuable pieces for draft picks and betting on their hype to improve us immediately?

Are you sure you're not secretly Doug MacLean?
So Howson and MacLean are both on here?

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05-31-2012, 05:24 PM
  #953
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MacLean probably does troll these forums since he seems so bitter.

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05-31-2012, 05:28 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
OK. To whom are you trading Nash & Savard that's going to get you 2 of the aforementioned? Just by draft order that would mean EDM, MTL, or NYI. I very much doubt any of those give up a top four pick even with Nash coming back and that assumes that Nash would waive to go to one of them It's very easy to say go out and get another top pick and quite another to actually make it happen in the real world. Nash and Savard straight up for any of those picks is a very bad over payment.

This was all part of a hypothetical three way trade. See above in discussion. It involved Edmonton,Toronto & Columbus. This is what started the whole thing.

Gonna run this "trade" by you guys. Can't decide if it's decent of completely sucks.

CLB: #1(EDM), Paajarvi, Kadri, TOR 2013 1st
EDM: #5(TOR), Methot, Scheen
TOR: Nash

Thinking:


CLB: Now we can get on with building a franchise since the elephant(Nash) has left the building. We can now rebuild with the #1 & #2(or 11/16, 12/21/Stafford) as well as have 3 picks(CLB, TOR, LA) for next year's "deeper" draft. You also have 2 players that maybe a change in scenery will help them reach the heights they were originally thought to have.

EDM: While it would be nice to relive the wide open days of Gretzky, Kurri, & Messier by taking Yakupov #1, you actually need defense to go anywhere these days. You now have 3 decent D-men in Methot, Scheen, and the #5(Murray, Dumba, Trouba, Reilly). You potentially get the guy you wanted at #1(Murray) at #5 while picking up 2 players that could help you not have to score 8 goals just to win.

TOR: You brought the local boy home without having to give up your flavor of the month in Gardiner & got rid of 2 of your whipping boys. You can now turn your focus on your goalie situation and pray that this 2 draft pick deal turns out much better than your last one.

Flame away, but remember we're all hear to have fun discussing hockey.........& ridicule Leafs fans


Now watch-someone will come late to the party and say-Toronto would never go for that

I'd say we could "throw in" Savard and bingo- we're off for another lap

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05-31-2012, 05:48 PM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
This was all part of a hypothetical three way trade. See above in discussion. It involved Edmonton,Toronto & Columbus. This is what started the whole thing.

Gonna run this "trade" by you guys. Can't decide if it's decent of completely sucks.

CLB: #1(EDM), Paajarvi, Kadri, TOR 2013 1st
EDM: #5(TOR), Methot, Scheen
TOR: Nash

Thinking:


CLB: Now we can get on with building a franchise since the elephant(Nash) has left the building. We can now rebuild with the #1 & #2(or 11/16, 12/21/Stafford) as well as have 3 picks(CLB, TOR, LA) for next year's "deeper" draft. You also have 2 players that maybe a change in scenery will help them reach the heights they were originally thought to have.

EDM: While it would be nice to relive the wide open days of Gretzky, Kurri, & Messier by taking Yakupov #1, you actually need defense to go anywhere these days. You now have 3 decent D-men in Methot, Scheen, and the #5(Murray, Dumba, Trouba, Reilly). You potentially get the guy you wanted at #1(Murray) at #5 while picking up 2 players that could help you not have to score 8 goals just to win.

TOR: You brought the local boy home without having to give up your flavor of the month in Gardiner & got rid of 2 of your whipping boys. You can now turn your focus on your goalie situation and pray that this 2 draft pick deal turns out much better than your last one.

Flame away, but remember we're all hear to have fun discussing hockey.........& ridicule Leafs fans


Now watch-someone will come late to the party and say-Toronto would never go for that

I'd say we could "throw in" Savard and bingo- we're off for another lap
Just don't see EDM giving up the first overall and dropping down to #5 for Methot, Schenn, even if we add Savard. Two middle tier Dmen and a prospect? Just don't think that's gonna fly from what's been discussed.

At the same time the CBJ give up Nash for Yakapov and pieces. Yes next years 1st is attractive and yes Yakapov is going to be a good one but I just don't see how this makes us a better team, which is the whole point of trading Nash, making a better team, not "getting rid of the elephant".

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05-31-2012, 06:41 PM
  #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
Just don't see EDM giving up the first overall and dropping down to #5 for Methot, Schenn, even if we add Savard. Two middle tier Dmen and a prospect? Just don't think that's gonna fly from what's been discussed.

At the same time the CBJ give up Nash for Yakapov and pieces. Yes next years 1st is attractive and yes Yakapov is going to be a good one but I just don't see how this makes us a better team, which is the whole point of trading Nash, making a better team, not "getting rid of the elephant".
When you are 30th and are getting rid of your alleged best player, I think it is unrealistic to expect to become a better team. Maybe no worse, but better? I don't see it unless some other GM is less astute than Howson. I am a proponent of looking out 3 to 4 years and seeing a lineup with top 3 draft picks from this year and next plus Johansen, Moore, Atkinson, Johnson as the core. The more top picks and prospects the Jackets can obtain the better. IMO.

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05-31-2012, 07:01 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
When you are 30th and are getting rid of your alleged best player, I think it is unrealistic to expect to become a better team. Maybe no worse, but better? I don't see it unless some other GM is less astute than Howson. I am a proponent of looking out 3 to 4 years and seeing a lineup with top 3 draft picks from this year and next plus Johansen, Moore, Atkinson, Johnson as the core. The more top picks and prospects the Jackets can obtain the better. IMO.
QFT. In all honesty looking around the league give me an example of a team we match up well against without Nash. We may not be last in the league but there are few teams that I think: Oh that's a good matchup for us or That's an easy game. (Seriously if there is a good argument for us being a better team than another one I would love to hear it.)

Trading our few valuable pieces for draft picks and betting on their hype to improve us immediately?

This is one of the few ways we could "win" a Nash trade. I know that you hate the hype of high draft picks but look around the league and it is guys from the Top pf a draft leading the best teams, Crosby and Malkin, The Sedins, Giroux, Kane and Toews, etc. We are not getting the best player, we have to hope that we can get a player that becomes as good as Nash in the future.

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05-31-2012, 07:08 PM
  #958
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Nail Yakupov is being flown in to Edmonton on Sunday after the combine to schooze with the media/check out the city ... which pretty much is tipping the Oilers' hand (they flew Hall and Nugent Hopkins in to the city prior to their selections as well to meet with the owner).

Oilers GM Tambellini also stated today that they're pretty set on keeping the pick.

So I think for you guys it's going to be either Forsberg or Galchenyuk.

I don't think there will be a lot of dealing with the top 5 picks to be honest. Maybe the Islanders get ancy and move their pick for more immediate help but I think everyone else is going to stand pat.

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05-31-2012, 07:34 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Nail Yakupov is being flown in to Edmonton on Sunday after the combine to schooze with the media/check out the city ... which pretty much is tipping the Oilers' hand (they flew Hall and Nugent Hopkins in to the city prior to their selections as well to meet with the owner).

Oilers GM Tambellini also stated today that they're pretty set on keeping the pick.

So I think for you guys it's going to be either Forsberg or Galchenyuk.

I don't think there will be a lot of dealing with the top 5 picks to be honest. Maybe the Islanders get ancy and move their pick for more immediate help but I think everyone else is going to stand pat.
Well, to be fair we flew out Taylor Hall, Tyler Seguin, Ryan Johansen, and Brandon Gormley in 2010 too. Just because they bring him in to look at the city and meet the organization, doesn't mean they will pick him. They will probably do the same for Murray and other top prospects too.

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05-31-2012, 10:17 PM
  #960
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Not sure if you were trying to be funny or what, but pardon me as I bring up my lunch.
This might help: click here

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05-31-2012, 10:58 PM
  #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cslebn View Post
MacLean probably does troll these forums since he seems so bitter.
Nah, professionals in the NHL industry move on... oh, he probably does pay attention to blurbs about the Jackets but he probably could care less about the franchise right now.

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06-01-2012, 02:28 AM
  #962
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Wings fan coming in peace. I see Derek MacKenzie and Derek Dorsett have been retained, solidifying your bottom 6 for the next few years. Is Howson trying to retain Jared Boll? Is he open to the idea of trading him?

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06-01-2012, 04:45 AM
  #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
This was all part of a hypothetical three way trade. See above in discussion. It involved Edmonton,Toronto & Columbus. This is what started the whole thing.

Gonna run this "trade" by you guys. Can't decide if it's decent of completely sucks.

CLB: #1(EDM), Paajarvi, Kadri, TOR 2013 1st
EDM: #5(TOR), Methot, Scheen
TOR: Nash

Thinking:


CLB: Now we can get on with building a franchise since the elephant(Nash) has left the building. We can now rebuild with the #1 & #2(or 11/16, 12/21/Stafford) as well as have 3 picks(CLB, TOR, LA) for next year's "deeper" draft. You also have 2 players that maybe a change in scenery will help them reach the heights they were originally thought to have.

EDM: While it would be nice to relive the wide open days of Gretzky, Kurri, & Messier by taking Yakupov #1, you actually need defense to go anywhere these days. You now have 3 decent D-men in Methot, Scheen, and the #5(Murray, Dumba, Trouba, Reilly). You potentially get the guy you wanted at #1(Murray) at #5 while picking up 2 players that could help you not have to score 8 goals just to win.

TOR: You brought the local boy home without having to give up your flavor of the month in Gardiner & got rid of 2 of your whipping boys. You can now turn your focus on your goalie situation and pray that this 2 draft pick deal turns out much better than your last one.

Flame away, but remember we're all hear to have fun discussing hockey.........& ridicule Leafs fans


Now watch-someone will come late to the party and say-Toronto would never go for that

I'd say we could "throw in" Savard and bingo- we're off for another lap
My post caused a $h!t storm, my work here is done

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06-01-2012, 04:50 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
Just don't see EDM giving up the first overall and dropping down to #5 for Methot, Schenn, even if we add Savard. Two middle tier Dmen and a prospect? Just don't think that's gonna fly from what's been discussed.

At the same time the CBJ give up Nash for Yakapov and pieces. Yes next years 1st is attractive and yes Yakapov is going to be a good one but I just don't see how this makes us a better team, which is the whole point of trading Nash, making a better team, not "getting rid of the elephant".
Don't know if I'd exactly call Scheen middle-tier, but it's more of a "they got the guy they wanted at 1 at 5, plus picked up other pieces" kind of thing.

As has already been mentioned, we're not gonna be a better team by trading Nash immediately, but if you get the right pieces, you can be better down the road. Not trading him to "get rid of the elephant," but rather to better ourselves at a later date.

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06-01-2012, 04:55 AM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
I don't see any way Toronto gives up that much just for Nash. I also don't see any way Edmonton drops down to #5. I think a more likely scenario would be Edmonton gets the CBJ #2 and CBJ ends up with the #5 (along with the #1). No way Toronto gives up their 2013 1st and they'll want something more than just Nash in this deal. It's not horrible but you would likely get crucified by both EDM and TOR fans just because. May be a workable framework though.

How about:

CLB: #1(EDM), Paajarvi, #5(TOR), Kulemin, Colborne
EDM: #2(CBJ), Schenn, Calvert
TOR: Nash, Methot, Omark

I don't know... probably just made things worse. Damn this is fun but painful to continue to throw crap out there....
The only reason I could see EDM dropping to 5 is because they still could get the guy they want(Murray) while selling the fans on "look at all the other pretty trinkets we got." We could probably still get our guy at 5(Galy) that I wanted at 2 as well, so maybe yours is better.

Think a Nash, Methot, Calvert for #5, Paajarvi, Kumelin, Colborne might be a bit much, but it would insure us of getting Yakupov, so maybe I could live with it. EDM would make out like bandits though just for dropping one spot


Last edited by georgiabluejacket: 06-01-2012 at 05:02 AM.
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06-01-2012, 08:00 AM
  #966
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Wings fan coming in peace. I see Derek MacKenzie and Derek Dorsett have been retained, solidifying your bottom 6 for the next few years. Is Howson trying to retain Jared Boll? Is he open to the idea of trading him?
Boll is a restricted free agent and has not yet been signed. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he wasn't back with the Jackets, next season, but it's very unlikely that Howson would trade him within the division. Anything is possible, though, and he might prefer to get something for Boll, rather than just let him walk away and sign with the Wings, anyway.

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06-01-2012, 08:39 AM
  #967
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You folks are amazing. A 30th place team that no one wants to get rid of any of the pieces, including a prospect that couldn't crack the aforementioned 30th place team's roster on a regular basis. Accepting that Letestu is just fine as the team's second line center.

To get you have to give and to add the highly valuable Savard (if not make him the cornerstone and throw in Nash) to a deal to obtain the 1st overall pick and a couple of other high ranking prospects plus a player or two seems like a very smart thing to do.

Two of Yakupov,Galchenyuk,Murray,Forsberg or Savard. Hmmmm.

With all due respect, this post just blows.

1. Your assumption that you have to give up our top defensive prospect in a trade to get the #1 pick is probably quite flawed.
2. Depending on the trade offer I might be willing to trade Savard for the #1 pick. My issue with your post was your dismissive attitude towards Savard.
3. I have as much chance of marrying Teresa Palmer as the Jackets have getting, or even seriously trying, to get both the #1 and #2 picks.
4. The comment that a 21 year old Savard could or should have cracked our lineup, and using that as some form of justification to moving him, is just beyond ludicrous. If he becomes a regular it might take until 23 or 24 for him to crack the lineup in that capacity. That isn't a bad thing.
5. Read my freaking posts on what I want to do this off season. I posted it three times and has multiple players I want to move.
6. Putting those names together and adding Savard to the end was just idiotic and you know it. No one suggested that Savard was worthy of people in that group from a prospect perspective and you know it. That illustration was pointless and not on topic.

Frankly, I've been reading your posts for quite a while and this one is far below you. Get your head back in the game please. I think you earned the title of amazing. Thanks.

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06-01-2012, 08:44 AM
  #968
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The use of hyperbole to achieve actual humor can be tricky. Your timing was a bit off.

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06-01-2012, 08:54 AM
  #969
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When you are 30th and are getting rid of your alleged best player, I think it is unrealistic to expect to become a better team.
The use of better and best bothers me. There is no criteria defined around it. For the sake of this conversation, I'll assume best player means most talented and better from a team perspective simply means more than 62 points.

If your best player isn't your best player night in and night out, that can problematic. If your best player is overpaid, that can be problematic. We could, potentially, spend that 7.8 million far more wisely and end up with a positive result on more nights.

You can become a better team with less collective talent. That's not to say you won't eventually need that talent to achieve your eventual goal.

Can we trade Nash and expect to be a better team? No. Can we expect to be a worse team? No. Can we trade Nash and expect to have the same results? No. Winning and team play is far more complicated, usually, than the performance of one player. There are a lot of moving parts. Good goal tending, solid defensive zone play, and the return for Nash could very well result in a 20+ point increase in points. Especially if the correct pieces from the team are retained.

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06-01-2012, 11:38 AM
  #970
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I just want to take this time to point out that I fully endorse blahblah's last three posts here and it's a good example of how we manage to get along despite vociferous disagreements elsewhere.

(Or, IOW - thank you for putting it better than I ever could. )

Quote:
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This is one of the few ways we could "win" a Nash trade. I know that you hate the hype of high draft picks but look around the league and it is guys from the Top pf a draft leading the best teams, Crosby and Malkin, The Sedins, Giroux, Kane and Toews, etc. We are not getting the best player, we have to hope that we can get a player that becomes as good as Nash in the future.
The big reason why I hate it is because we always seem around this time of year to get all sorts of crazy trade ideas that involve sweeping a goodly portion of the top-5 picks. It's not just us; every team in an awkward position does it. It's impractical lunacy, and is born exclusively of the fact that folks are looking at all the possibilities, can't bring themselves to choose, and so are trying to come up with impossible ways to stack things so they won't have to. It's exasperating and tiresome.

When folks turn around and attempt to justify it as a rational plan for a rebuild - and come up with unbalanced trades to attempt to make this pipe dream happen? That's when I get, shall we say, intense.

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06-01-2012, 11:52 AM
  #971
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Seemingly against my own sense of free will, but I also feel compelled to agree with BB's last 3 posts.

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06-01-2012, 12:02 PM
  #972
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Seemingly against my own sense of free will, but I also feel compelled to agree with BB's last 3 posts.
Oh, crud. Now the world's going to end.

blahblah, I sure hope you're happy. Your reasonable elucidation of an opinion many can agree with has doomed us all.


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06-01-2012, 12:06 PM
  #973
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The big reason why I hate it is because we always seem around this time of year to get all sorts of crazy trade ideas that involve sweeping a goodly portion of the top-5 picks. It's not just us; every team in an awkward position does it. It's impractical lunacy, and is born exclusively of the fact that folks are looking at all the possibilities, can't bring themselves to choose, and so are trying to come up with impossible ways to stack things so they won't have to. It's exasperating and tiresome.

When folks turn around and attempt to justify it as a rational plan for a rebuild - and come up with unbalanced trades to attempt to make this pipe dream happen? That's when I get, shall we say, intense.
Lol, perfectly understandable. Though, for us I think somewhat unfounded. We have veteran leaders in Umby, Prospal and other leaders solid guys like JMFJ and Dorse. A solid and fairly Deep D-Corp. Our rebuild is starting with a fairly solid foundation to do this IMO, if only we could get a goal tender...

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06-01-2012, 12:22 PM
  #974
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Originally Posted by alphafox View Post
Lol, perfectly understandable. Though, for us I think somewhat unfounded. We have veteran leaders in Umby, Prospal and other leaders solid guys like JMFJ and Dorse. A solid and fairly Deep D-Corp. Our rebuild is starting with a fairly solid foundation to do this IMO, if only we could get a goal tender...
See, I think we could do reasonably well by getting a starting goaltender and filling the holes at forward. I don't think we can do enough this offseason to truly compete (not unless we manage a Parise-type signing), but we can at least start to do so and put ourselves in a position to reap benefits if/when the current crop of forward prospects show up.

What I don't want is to have them going up against the best of the NHL's best immediately, which is why I want the forward corps shored up and not disassembled. I know it's trendy to say "they all suck, replace 'em all", but I think that's a tad extreme.

As I see it, assuming the minimums (starting goaltender and two top-6 forwards - one natural, one capable-if-necessary) are met, we're probably hovering in "just outside the playoffs" range. If a break goes our way (i.e. Atkinson or Johansen taking a level in badass), we're in. If a break goes against us (say, Wisniewski gets suspended for 25 games), we drop further. Odds are that breaks balance out and we'll need to find a little something extra.

Of course, that assumes we keep Nash. So, yeah, admittedly another (albeit somewhat minor) part of why I want immediate scoring help is because that's less disruption to my crystal ball.

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06-01-2012, 12:40 PM
  #975
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Of course, that assumes we keep Nash. So, yeah, admittedly another (albeit somewhat minor) part of why I want immediate scoring help is because that's less disruption to my crystal ball.
Ah I must have missed that little bit of information.

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