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The new "what to do about Howson" thread

View Poll Results: What should ownership do with GM Scott Howson during the offseason?
Keep him 18 21.43%
Fire him 66 78.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-09-2012, 07:36 PM
  #51
Mayor Bee
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
What a bunch of political BS. I said last year what Howson needed to do to get back into good graces (playoffs) and we're further way this year than we were then. I gave him the benefit of the doubt to allow him to pick his own coach and look how that turned out. The time for having any faith in this GM is long gone. Fairness isn't giving him 10 years to watch a decades worth of draft picks fizzle just so you can be certain that "the plan" (of which I'm still convinced there isn't one in the traditional sense of that phrase) isn't working.
As currently composed, and assuming completely average development and regression, how many points is the current roster good for next year? How about with an NHL-average goalie? How about with a shutdown defenseman added in? For the sake of argument, let's also assume that the coaching staff all carries over as well.

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04-09-2012, 07:44 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
As currently composed, and assuming completely average development and regression, how many points is the current roster good for next year? How about with an NHL-average goalie? How about with a shutdown defenseman added in? For the sake of argument, let's also assume that the coaching staff all carries over as well.
You know, a GOOD GM would have had an "NHL average goalie and shutdown defenseman" on the roster THIS year.

We all knew those were weaknesses. Instead, we get an injury prone guy coming off a concussion to play defense. And in goal: a guy who couldn't crack the top 30 NHL goalies and a guy with only a handful of NHL games who was coming off a high ankle sprain.

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04-09-2012, 07:46 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Actually, the answers are yes and yes. Many teams have had success over a span of multiple seasons despite being having little in the way of high-end offense. New Jersey over a span of 10 years usually had upper-echelon firepower despite having only Patrik Elias as a consistent scoring threat for any period of time. Lemaire's first year, the Devils scored the 2nd-most goals in the league, and their leading scorer was Scott Stevens. With the exception of the non-playoff 1995-96 season, they were in the top third almost every year and were in the top five multiple times.

That's the most prominent example; they're not the only one. And most people would argue that Lou Lamoriello is a pretty good GM.
I think you are (intentionally) missing the point, so let me take it a step further--if Scott Howson traded his roster for 25 right wings and each individual trade was viewed as a "win" what do you think the odds of winning the Stanley Cup are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
As currently composed, and assuming completely average development and regression, how many points is the current roster good for next year? How about with an NHL-average goalie? How about with a shutdown defenseman added in? For the sake of argument, let's also assume that the coaching staff all carries over as well.
You forgot to factor in the departure of the franchise's best offensive player, which we can also thank Scott Howson for.

I've gone through the analysis with you before about recent history of teams that finish 30th. The idea that somehow the guy who created this mess is going to dig us out in one off-seasons is laughable even before you factor in the Nash situation.

And, doesn't it dent your faith in Howson's scouting of young talent at all the shambles that his prior franchise has become?

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04-09-2012, 07:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Duncan Keith didn't play his 1st NHL game till he was 22 and won Norris trophy! The oldest Howson's draft pick is still 22. Moore got all the tools to be a good NHL d-man, he's only 21. That's still too early to place him or RyJo to any category - busts or legit NHLers.
Howson had only 1 bad 1st round selection - Filatov. But he was consensus top-5 pick that year. All scouts were mistaken. For god's sake Peter Chiarelli drafted Zach Hamill with 8th overall pick in 2007. In 4 year his team won the Cup.
Again, Scott Howson helped draft plenty of players in Edmonton too. How are those guys doing?

I happened to take a quick look myself and had to laugh. Want to know why the Oilers still suck even after all those high draft picks? Go back and take a look at the base they had to build with what was drafted in the KLowe-Howson era.

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04-09-2012, 07:54 PM
  #55
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Let's see I was trying to win a cake baking competition and needed the ingredients: eggs, flour, sugar, milk, baking powder, butter and cocoa powder. But I traded away the flour, baking powder and sugar for the best cocoa powder on earth, how good would my cake taste? But hey, I won the trade!

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04-09-2012, 07:55 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post


I've answered this last bit repeatedly but some people can't seem to understand that it isn't about individual moves, it is about team building.

Taken at the extreme, a GM could "win" a series of moves and end up with a team full of second line wingers. Is that a good General Manager? Would that team be successful? No and no.

Howson can't see the forest for the trees. He makes moves that look good on paper, but the teams he puts together don't work together. It isn't dumb luck, it is an inability to understand chemistry.

And, what exactly is your definition of "improving the team step-by-step"? By your own admission you were ready to give him the heave-ho last year and now he puts his team in 30th and he deserves to stay?! Hardly seems to be improving anything. Just switching deck chairs on the Titanic. "Winning" a bunch of trades on paper and losing where it matters--on the ice. Coming up with a plan for the future that instills so much confidence that the team's Captain, who sligned a long term deal, and is the only person outside of ownership and management who seems to have heard the plan, immediately demanded to be traded.
Improving step-by-step means getting parts that could work together well. Pointing at the 30th place you're talking about the past, I'm thinking about the future. In my opinion he's done a good job fixing his own mistakes (like Carter trade). Every GM makes mistakes, not every GM can fix them (see: Doug MacLean). Howson seems good at it. Let's see how he fixes his "Mason mistake".
Looking at our defense I see 2 great pairs that fan to watch. I see a bunch of young kids and hope that one day they will become a legit NHLers. Every team building starts from defense and looks like Howson finally found the way to do it. I just wanna give him a chance to finish the job.

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04-09-2012, 08:22 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Improving step-by-step means getting parts that could work together well. Pointing at the 30th place you're talking about the past, I'm thinking about the future. In my opinion he's done a good job fixing his own mistakes (like Carter trade). Every GM makes mistakes, not every GM can fix them (see: Doug MacLean). Howson seems good at it. Let's see how he fixes his "Mason mistake".
Looking at our defense I see 2 great pairs that fan to watch. I see a bunch of young kids and hope that one day they will become a legit NHLers. Every team building starts from defense and looks like Howson finally found the way to do it. I just wanna give him a chance to finish the job.
You ARE aware that: we're the WORST team in the NHL, our best player wants to be traded, our AHL team is going to miss the playoffs and our ECHL is now defunct, right?

OK, he negated the Carter mistake and the Vermette mistake (crazy contract extension).

But in addition to The Mason Mistake, we also have: The Martinek Mistake, The Dekanich Mistake, The Commodore mistake, The Filatov mistake, The Malhotra mistake, The Chimera mistake, The Klesla mistake, The Glencross mistake, The Pahlsson mistake, The Raffi Torres Mistake, The Stralman Mistake, The Scott Arniel Mistake, The Ken Hitchcock Mistake, The Ian Clark mistake and The Rob Riley Mistake.

I sure as hell don't want him finishing THIS job.

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Old
04-09-2012, 08:23 PM
  #58
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After 11 seasons the CBJ have had a winning rate of 44% in the first 60 games and 45% in the last 22...

The data proves the CBJ have had a better winning rate after the first 60 games on average since their inception... next topic.

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04-09-2012, 08:32 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Again, Scott Howson helped draft plenty of players in Edmonton too. How are those guys doing?

I happened to take a quick look myself and had to laugh. Want to know why the Oilers still suck even after all those high draft picks? Go back and take a look at the base they had to build with what was drafted in the KLowe-Howson era.
Are you serious? You really wanna make Howson responsible for Low's draft selections? At the end we will never know what was Howson's opinion about draft picks. Usually that's between GM and Scouting's director.
By the way Howson's 2011 2nd round pick outscored in the OHL playoffs Yakupov and Galchenyuk combined. At the same draft with Filatov the Jackets picked up Calvert, Kubalik and Atkinson. All of them could be good NHLers for years.

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04-09-2012, 08:32 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
After 11 seasons the CBJ have had a winning rate of 44% in the first 60 games and 45% in the last 22...

The data proves the CBJ have had a better winning rate after the first 60 games on average since their inception... next topic.
Where the hell have you been all day? We could have ended this HOURS ago!

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04-09-2012, 08:37 PM
  #61
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In the spirit of guarantees, I guarantee the Blue Jackets won't win a playoff round as long as Howson is general manager... guaranteed!

In fact, any owner with any hockey sense at all would have fired Priest, Howson and Richards yesterday…

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04-09-2012, 08:39 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
Where the hell have you been all day? We could have ended this HOURS ago!
Sulking over the final 16 playoffs teams...

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04-09-2012, 08:49 PM
  #63
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I voted to "fire him", but I could be persuaded to give him more time if Priest were to be removed from day to day operations and a new president with experience in the field came in and judged Howson himself.

Firing Scott Howson alone would only lead to another "yes man" being hired.

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04-09-2012, 08:52 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
I voted to "fire him", but I could be persuaded to give him more time if Priest were to be removed from day to day operations and a new president with experience in the field came in and judged Howson himself.

Firing Scott Howson alone would only lead to another "yes man" being hired.
Agree

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04-09-2012, 08:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
After 11 seasons the CBJ have had a winning rate of 44% in the first 60 games and 45% in the last 22...

The data proves the CBJ have had a better winning rate after the first 60 games on average since their inception... next topic.
How many times their winning rate was 55%?

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04-09-2012, 08:55 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
How many times (was) their winning rate 55%?
Not enough times to win a playoff game...

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04-09-2012, 09:07 PM
  #67
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I'd like to trade up, if possible, as I'm no longer certain that Howson will get us to the Promised Land (and it still hurts to say that). I'm not, however, about to say "just fire him" - for all the issues we've had with current results, he's also gotten quite a few things right (see comparisons with Doug MacLean, for example), and I think making a change without considering the alternatives is a Bad Idea.

I grant that there's probably a few folks who have thought that through (okay, there's exactly one person who I'm sure has looked into it ), but I strongly suspect most of the F.A.N.S. crowd is more concerned with the final points count and sacrificial appeasement rather than the details. And overlooking that stuff is a good way to have us end up even WORSE off - and yes, really, the situation could very easily be worse.

I want an exit plan, not a lynch mob.


EDIT: I should also point out that I retain a great deal of respect for Howson's scouting ability, and have this little fantasy in the back of my mind that maybe, just maybe, the "Patrowson" combo might be able to be a Best Of Both Worlds setup. That said, my faith's been a bit too sorely tested of late for me to be optimistic out of the gate... but if things continue to go as well as some of the recent acquisitions have done, you can damn well bet I'll be first on the "I told you so" bandwagon.

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04-09-2012, 09:16 PM
  #68
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I guess one question that just popped up in my mind is who we'd rather have in control during a rebuild/reshape/retool/remold/whatever this offseason will be: Scott Howson or the new guy behind Door #1?

I do agree that if Howson goes, Priest has to be gone as well.

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04-09-2012, 09:19 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Are you serious? You really wanna make Howson responsible for Low's draft selections? At the end we will never know what was Howson's opinion about draft picks. Usually that's between GM and Scouting's director.
By the way Howson's 2011 2nd round pick outscored in the OHL playoffs Yakupov and Galchenyuk combined. At the same draft with Filatov the Jackets picked up Calvert, Kubalik and Atkinson. All of them could be good NHLers for years.
I'm interjecting reality into your fantasy world.

I don't give two hoots about some kid in the OHL's stats. We've heard this argument a million times--the next bunch of prospects is always "special" an when they don't develop, there's always a convenient excuse.

Calvert and Kubalik are now guaranteed NHL players? Talk about delusional.

The reality is, there isn't any indication from his history as an NHL GM or Assistant GM that suggests Howson is a particularly good judge of amateur talent. Worse yet, there is good reason to suspect Howson's inaction in fixing the franchise's farm system has led to trouble developing talent after it is acquired.

The guy was picked as GM as a "capologist" and he couldn't even do that right.

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04-09-2012, 09:21 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBJSprague24 View Post
I guess one question that just popped up in my mind is who we'd rather have in control during a rebuild/reshape/retool/remold/whatever this offseason will be: Scott Howson or the new guy behind Door #1?

I do agree that if Howson goes, Priest has to be gone as well.
The lynchmob answer is "The new guy, 'cause Howson sucks."

The exit strategy answer is "This is a false dichotomy; there are multiple possible new guys. Here's a few possibilities and how they might be helpful..."

I'm willing to hear the latter. The former continues to be contemptible.

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04-09-2012, 09:23 PM
  #71
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I'd like to trade up, if possible, as I'm no longer certain that Howson will get us to the Promised Land (and it still hurts to say that). I'm not, however, about to say "just fire him" - for all the issues we've had with current results, he's also gotten quite a few things right (see comparisons with Doug MacLean, for example), and I think making a change without considering the alternatives is a Bad Idea.

I grant that there's probably a few folks who have thought that through (okay, there's exactly one person who I'm sure has looked into it ), but I strongly suspect most of the F.A.N.S. crowd is more concerned with the final points count and sacrificial appeasement rather than the details. And overlooking that stuff is a good way to have us end up even WORSE off - and yes, really, the situation could very easily be worse.

I want an exit plan, not a lynch mob.
I don't think its about the bloodlust of the minority so much that realistically fixing this mess not just for the next few seasons but for decades beyond will require a body count of several high ranking members of the organization because of years of subpar management of the product.

What might have required tweaks here and there several years ago has now required full surgery with anaesthetic.

I've made mistakes in my professional life as well, however I'm a firm believer that you don't keep giving people chances who have routinely and regularly failed to deliver.

Giving this management group, as a whole, another oppurtunity to fix a mess that they not only have contributed to but because of the time frame and desperation, have now compounded, is setting us back even longer.

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04-09-2012, 09:25 PM
  #72
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I can't explain it, but there's something about the guy I like. The few times I've talked to him, his almost brutal candor impressed me greatly. I also think he's a good judge of talent, even if he's not that great at dealing with it. (yet)
Of course his record justifies a dismissal. But he's had a big-time learning curve under difficult circumstances. He probably won't get over it quick enough to suit anyone, but I can't help but feel he's going to be great one day.

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04-09-2012, 09:30 PM
  #73
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I can't explain it, but there's something about the guy I like. The few times I've talked to him, his almost brutal candor impressed me greatly. I also think he's a good judge of talent, even if he's not that great at dealing with it. (yet)
Of course his record justifies a dismissal. But he's had a big-time learning curve under difficult circumstances. He probably won't get over it quick enough to suit anyone, but I can't help but feel he's going to be great one day.
See, I'm just the opposite. I don't think this guy wins any executive of the year awards at this level. "Serviceable" might be the most favorable description I would give him now, interestingly enough, I thought this would be all we'd need in the wake of the MacLean, but enter another overbearing Team President and you have what Howson has become.... Total Milquetoast.

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04-09-2012, 09:31 PM
  #74
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I think you are (intentionally) missing the point, so let me take it a step further--if Scott Howson traded his roster for 25 right wings and each individual trade was viewed as a "win" what do you think the odds of winning the Stanley Cup are?
That's not going a step further; that's lapsing into the realm of the absurd.

Quote:
You forgot to factor in the departure of the franchise's best offensive player, which we can also thank Scott Howson for.
We can? I don't see a deal having been done. And, if in fact a deal ends up being done, we have no idea what the return is at this point.

Quote:
I've gone through the analysis with you before about recent history of teams that finish 30th. The idea that somehow the guy who created this mess is going to dig us out in one off-seasons is laughable even before you factor in the Nash situation.
I seem to remember addressing all of that at that point.

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And, doesn't it dent your faith in Howson's scouting of young talent at all the shambles that his prior franchise has become?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Again, Scott Howson helped draft plenty of players in Edmonton too. How are those guys doing?

I happened to take a quick look myself and had to laugh. Want to know why the Oilers still suck even after all those high draft picks? Go back and take a look at the base they had to build with what was drafted in the KLowe-Howson era.
Not one of us has any idea of what took place during those meetings or drafts. I can tell you from personal experience what it's like to advise someone on something, only to have it either ignored or actually have the complete opposite be done. I'm sure every one of us on these boards has had that exact experience. Plenty have said that that's exactly how Doug MacLean ran his drafts: he takes the first round no matter what, and then he doesn't care what happens after that. And yet with most of those scouts being retained, the quality of the drafting in Columbus went way up.

Why?

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04-09-2012, 09:36 PM
  #75
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or it doesn't matter what happens to Howson.

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