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The new "what to do about Howson" thread

View Poll Results: What should ownership do with GM Scott Howson during the offseason?
Keep him 18 21.43%
Fire him 66 78.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-09-2012, 09:38 PM
  #76
KeithBWhittington
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Originally Posted by Bobcat110 View Post


or it doesn't matter what happens to Howson.
Exactly.




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04-09-2012, 09:41 PM
  #77
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Let's see I was trying to win a cake baking competition and needed the ingredients: eggs, flour, sugar, milk, baking powder, butter and cocoa powder. But I traded away the flour, baking powder and sugar for the best cocoa powder on earth, how good would my cake taste? But hey, I won the trade!
That would make you a moron, not a baker. There's a reason why good chefs and bakers (who work alone) know exactly what they need and in what quality and quantity; if they work with someone else, they work with what they've been given and adjust accordingly if something changes.

Any good coach is going to look at the talent available to him and put that talent to the best use in order to maximize the success of the team. A bad coach is going to look at what he has and say, "The hell with this! I'm running my system, no matter how mismatched it may be to what I have!" Look at the Kings this year, with all of these very productive offensive players and a horribly unproductive offense.

Football provides many great examples for this. Baseball provides more examples for the success of failures of the front office; a team playing in a cavernous park shouldn't be stocked with power hitters and non-strikeout pitchers, and one playing in a bandbox shouldn't have slap hitters and strikeout pitchers. If you look at the Yankees over time, their periods of success happen to exactly coincide with when they have left-handed power hitters in the lineup, and their poor years coincide with when they do not....undoubtedly someone thinks that's a coincidence. That makes them dense.

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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
You ARE aware that: we're the WORST team in the NHL, our best player wants to be traded, our AHL team is going to miss the playoffs and our ECHL is now defunct, right?

OK, he negated the Carter mistake and the Vermette mistake (crazy contract extension).

But in addition to The Mason Mistake, we also have: The Martinek Mistake, The Dekanich Mistake, The Commodore mistake, The Filatov mistake, The Malhotra mistake, The Chimera mistake, The Klesla mistake, The Glencross mistake, The Pahlsson mistake, The Raffi Torres Mistake, The Stralman Mistake, The Scott Arniel Mistake, The Ken Hitchcock Mistake, The Ian Clark mistake and The Rob Riley Mistake.

I sure as hell don't want him finishing THIS job.
How far are you stretching the definition of "mistake"? Actually, don't answer that...you have Ian Clark as a mistake, despite the fact that he's the first guy in three years to get Steve Mason to turn in multiple good outings, as well as getting excellent goaltending from a career AHLer. Oh, and Raffi Torres....what a horrible mistake it was to turn a rapidly declining prospect into him, get his best years, and then trade him for a 2nd-rounder.

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04-09-2012, 09:48 PM
  #78
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Giving this management group, as a whole, another oppurtunity to fix a mess that they not only have contributed to but because of the time frame and desperation, have now compounded, is setting us back even longer.
So then what would the end game be? Bring in someone new, make a grand pronouncement of "win now", and then hope that there's enough in free agency or the trade market to completely change the roster and farm system overnight? If that's the goal, then you'd damn well better hope that it works like a charm, because if it doesn't....well, let's just say that me saying "I told you so" would be the least of anyone's concerns.

Ask the Islanders how well that approach has worked for them.

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04-09-2012, 10:37 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
So then what would the end game be? Bring in someone new, make a grand pronouncement of "win now", and then hope that there's enough in free agency or the trade market to completely change the roster and farm system overnight? If that's the goal, then you'd damn well better hope that it works like a charm, because if it doesn't....well, let's just say that me saying "I told you so" would be the least of anyone's concerns.

Ask the Islanders how well that approach has worked for them.
I'm not sure anyone here is demanding "Win Now" (at any cost). Given the fragile state of this hockey club I think that would be a giant mistake that would take us years to recover from.

I would like to think that what the discerning fan would like is a plan that makes sense, from hockey minds that have experience with the sport. Fans will put up with a lot if there seems to be a plan in place. The evidence suggests that there either is a) no long term plan, or, b) if there is one it has failed.

I was asked to vote regarding my confidence that Scott Howson is the guy to give us a plan we can believe in. I voted that he does not have that confidence. If he's simply Mike Priest's yes-man, then he should be replaced. If the current state of the team has nothing to do with Mike Priest, then GMSH shoud definitely be replaced. Either way, the pair of them needs to be ousted for this team to move forward.

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04-09-2012, 11:08 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
I don't think its about the bloodlust of the minority so much that realistically fixing this mess not just for the next few seasons but for decades beyond will require a body count of several high ranking members of the organization because of years of subpar management of the product.

What might have required tweaks here and there several years ago has now required full surgery with anaesthetic.

I've made mistakes in my professional life as well, however I'm a firm believer that you don't keep giving people chances who have routinely and regularly failed to deliver.

Giving this management group, as a whole, another oppurtunity to fix a mess that they not only have contributed to but because of the time frame and desperation, have now compounded, is setting us back even longer.
Viqsi has long had a problem distinguishing accountablity from so-called bloodlust. The reality is there isn't a single person who has suggested replacing Howson with just anyone.

There were others who wanted Howson gone before I. I thought he should get the benefit of having a chance to name his own coach. 2 years and 3 coaches later, we cannot afford to allow Howson to make another long-term coaching decision. No, now is the time to find a visionary GM instead of a failed lawyer turned beancounter. Someone who is really going to evaluate and upgrade as appropriate from top to bottom instead of only doing it 4 years into the process and even then half-heartedly.

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04-09-2012, 11:28 PM
  #81
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That's not going a step further; that's lapsing into the realm of the absurd.
The absurdity is to illustrate the point--you can "win" every trade and fail to put together the right pieces. But if you believe Howson has won all of his trades, clearly that point is already proven by seeing a playoff team 3 years later dead last in the league despite his "brilliant" trading.

Quote:
We can? I don't see a deal having been done. And, if in fact a deal ends up being done, we have no idea what the return is at this point.
We both know the short-term will be lesser value with the hope the long term return is greater value. And we both know that Howson's "plan" was what precipitated the trade demand, so let's not pretend it wasn't.

Quote:
Not one of us has any idea of what took place during those meetings or drafts. I can tell you from personal experience what it's like to advise someone on something, only to have it either ignored or actually have the complete opposite be done. I'm sure every one of us on these boards has had that exact experience. Plenty have said that that's exactly how Doug MacLean ran his drafts: he takes the first round no matter what, and then he doesn't care what happens after that. And yet with most of those scouts being retained, the quality of the drafting in Columbus went way up.

Why?
What we know is that almost 10 years into being an executive this GM doesn't have a player he can point to as a star he drafted either as a GM or AGM. Not one.

And, sorry, I don't agree with your analysis of the drafting. It hasn't improved. The best the Howson apologists can do is claim the verdict is incomplete. But he has no rousing successes and one clear cut first round bust. I hope Atkinson continues on his recent pace, but I've seen this before with undersized players who start strong and can't handle it when teams start targeting them for physical punishment.

Howson's apologists seem to entirely ignore his poor contract negotiations which led to the Commodore buyout, the Klesla trade, Steve Mason as our #1 goalie, Fedor Tyutin's untradeable extension, the Vermette salary dump, etc., etc. The irony was that this was the big selling point when he was acquired to be the capologist.

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04-09-2012, 11:50 PM
  #82
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Viqsi has long had a problem distinguishing accountablity from so-called bloodlust. The reality is there isn't a single person who has suggested replacing Howson with just anyone.

There were others who wanted Howson gone before I. I thought he should get the benefit of having a chance to name his own coach. 2 years and 3 coaches later, we cannot afford to allow Howson to make another long-term coaching decision. No, now is the time to find a visionary GM instead of a failed lawyer turned beancounter. Someone who is really going to evaluate and upgrade as appropriate from top to bottom instead of only doing it 4 years into the process and even then half-heartedly.
Given that our prior disagreements on what you dubiously call "accountability" involved how Ken Hitchcock couldn't possibly be an effective coach in the NHL anymore and that he had to go in favor of someone new and forward-thinking - and the fact that the "Time for Howson to go" calls started at the first sign of adversity with Arniel - I find this to be more than a little disingenuous.

I can understand jumping to a conclusion and rationalizing it after the fact with hindsight analysis. We all do that to a degree due to a persistent lack of data that will never be overcome by any mere fan. But it's still rather appalling to see someone be so consistently dishonest about that process taking place.

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Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!

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Old
04-10-2012, 02:06 AM
  #83
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Overall: 170 wins in 410 games....41%

Last Three Seasons' Rankings

2009-10 Division 5/5....Conference...14/15....Overall...27/30
2010-11 Division 5/5....Conference...13/15....Overall...24/30
2011-12 Division 5/5....Conference...15/15....Overall...30/30

Average Divison 5/5....Conference 14/15.....Overall 27/30

If finishing last in the divison each of the last 3 years, beating one team (on average) each year in one's conference and beating an average of 3 (10%) of all the teams in the league is sufficient to keep one's job.........................

Another way of looking at it is this:

1) If Howson were fired would he be a GM next season in the NHL? Would anyone else take advantage of the Jackets "mistake"? i.e. Is Montreal just biding time waiting for Scott to get the axe? The real question is whether he'd EVER be a NHL GM again? Why would anyone hire him?

2) In the universe of available GM candidates ahould Scott Howson be the CBJs first pick? Out of all current assistant GMs, former GMs, and other legitimate potential GM candidates, would the Jackets to be prudent to bypass all of them in favor of Howson? Every single one of them.

I'd fire him on April 15th in honor of Edward Smith.

April 15,2012 is the 100th anniversary of the sinking of RMS Titanic, Edward Smith Captain.


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Old
04-10-2012, 04:34 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post



What we know is that almost 10 years into being an executive this GM doesn't have a player he can point to as a star he drafted either as a GM or AGM. Not one.

And, sorry, I don't agree with your analysis of the drafting. It hasn't improved. The best the Howson apologists can do is claim the verdict is incomplete. But he has no rousing successes and one clear cut first round bust. I hope Atkinson continues on his recent pace, but I've seen this before with undersized players who start strong and can't handle it when teams start targeting them for physical punishment.

.
When one considers Howson's tenure in Edmonton as you have, it really puts a proper perspective on his drafting prowess. I mean lack thereof. 10 years and ZERO home runs. He doesn't have it. A few of his picks will ultimately work out. A few of anyone who has had a lot of say so in 10 years worth of drafts will.

Atkinson was a great pick. He probably deserved to go in the draft where he did (6th round-throwaway round). Tiny US high school players are long shots to be NHL players let alone possible impact players. He was low risk/high return. Congrats to Howson. You can't miss 'em all.

Atkinson was a huge producer at a high level with Boston College. His AHL production (32 goals in his first professional 55 games-.58 goals per game) was enormous. Though his size will always be an issue, I think the early returns are showing that he can overcome the disadvantages of his meager stature.

David Desharnais of the Montreal Canadiens is listed at 5'7" and 177 lbs. He's really about 5'5" 160 lbs. He finished his first full NHL season with 60 points. He was an undrafted player. I hope that Atkinson has Desharnais' ability to avoid the big hits. I'll assume that he does because it appears as if he's never been injured seriously and he's always been a big scorer so there's no doubt that the opposition has had him in their sights since his high school days. He's been able to avoid serious punishment in the past and I suspect that it won't be an issue for him in the NHL. At least no more so than most other players.


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Old
04-10-2012, 07:12 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
7. Derek Dorsett - who recognized that he could be more than just a fighter?
Vinny Prospal?

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04-10-2012, 07:33 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
So then what would the end game be? Bring in someone new, make a grand pronouncement of "win now", and then hope that there's enough in free agency or the trade market to completely change the roster and farm system overnight? If that's the goal, then you'd damn well better hope that it works like a charm, because if it doesn't....well, let's just say that me saying "I told you so" would be the least of anyone's concerns.

Ask the Islanders how well that approach has worked for them.
I'm not ready to proclaim "Win Now" at the first sight of new management like Priest was, But it seems shortsighted, 5 years and a few failed plans later to let Priest and Howson run a rebuild, retool, or whatever the hell you want to call it. its no longer Doug MacLean's mess they need to clean up, its their own, and if attendance takes a dip at the beginning of the this next season, I really don't see how the franchise is in much better shape, 5 years later, as they were when MacLean was fired. My whole point is that they shouldn't be giving these guys another chance when they've failed several times before.

I don't expect the team to "Win Now" with new management, but I do expect this organization to conduct itself like an organization that tries to win instead of one thats just content to hang around if it means being competitive occassionally.

This culture that its just ok to "be" has made this organization a joke. Thats a direct result of the lack of accountability, both from ownership on management and management on the players. This isn't the "honeymoon" period anymore.

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04-10-2012, 08:13 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Improving step-by-step means getting parts that could work together well. Pointing at the 30th place you're talking about the past, I'm thinking about the future.
Oh dear. Our "past" was 80 point plus seasons, our present is a 65 point season. Our future is trending in the crapper.

No one knows for sure what the future will be like, but I will say that Howson has not, in any way, shape, or form earned the right to lead this team. He has been an epic failure in almost every conceivable way. His draft picks may turn out good and he will eventually win (more likely in the area of modest than Cup contender), but his 5 years has been about erosion and decay. From the NHL roster, to the coaching staff, to the fans.

The fact that anyone here is defending him, and no offense to MB is intended, is a slap in the face of the fans and the current players.

I am getting ill reading some of this stuff, including this posters take on John Moore.


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04-10-2012, 08:24 AM
  #88
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the Vermette mistake (crazy contract extension).
There was nothing wrong with that contract extension. Let's not make crap up, shall we? Howson has enough failures on his own, without inventing stuff. At the time that extension was warranted and the money/term was fine.

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04-10-2012, 08:27 AM
  #89
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Bottom line, folks.

He has had five years to build a winner, and he hasn't even come close. The play-off year was an aberration.

Think about that, and let it sink in. What has five years of Howson gotten us?

The answer?

Fail................................EPIC fail!

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04-10-2012, 08:40 AM
  #90
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Given the results, we would be better off now having kept DM when they fired him. No matter how it looks, I don't say that in praise of DM. Howson's just been that bad.

Of course Howson should be fired now. We just need to make sure we get the right guy this time around.

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04-10-2012, 08:44 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Given that our prior disagreements on what you dubiously call "accountability" involved how Ken Hitchcock couldn't possibly be an effective coach in the NHL anymore and that he had to go in favor of someone new and forward-thinking - and the fact that the "Time for Howson to go" calls started at the first sign of adversity with Arniel - I find this to be more than a little disingenuous.
Ouch...

Quote:
I can understand jumping to a conclusion and rationalizing it after the fact with hindsight analysis. We all do that to a degree due to a persistent lack of data that will never be overcome by any mere fan. But it's still rather appalling to see someone be so consistently dishonest about that process taking place.
The entire body of work should be viewed honestly and objectively. While I give a passionate speech earlier, I made nothing up. Others, who most likely supported some of the moves earlier, are now revising history to feed their blood lust, as you call it.

As far as your exit strategy goes, that is a whole mine field of a discussion. I know how I would handle it and I've discussed that before, to a certain extent. If you would like a list of potential GM's as well, I am not going to contribute to that conversation. Just like I am not going to contribute much to the new head coach conversation until we are down to candidates again.

The reality is, as much as I would like to see Howson gone he isn't going to be anytime soon. Thus the exit strategy conversation is fairly pointless as well as the head coaching decision. The new GM should, obviously, pick his new head coach. We are likely going to bring in another head coach on a new three year deal. That implies that they see Howson here for that long.

The only exception to this is that there is a plan is place for Priest to gracefully resign, for Patrick to either take his role or interview another. For that individual to hire a new GM and then his new head coach. It is unlikely that all that occurs with enough speed to be completed this off season.

The feel I am getting is that they want some stability at the top. I guess we'll find out more as the off season unfolds.

As I said, as I fan I feel Howson has slapped me in the face on more than one occasion. I feel he does not deserve the right to represent this organization.

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04-10-2012, 08:51 AM
  #92
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Of course Howson should be fired now. We just need to make sure we get the right guy this time around.
As long as Mike Priest remains the "point man" for any subsequent hire, we are in trouble as an organization. As long as Mike Priest is having a large and in some cases, final say in anything pretaining to the on ice product or acquistions, we are in trouble.

The one right move he's made was allowing the NHL to help him find a suitable "advisor"... I only hope this is the start of a management transistion.... Otherwise, it will be nothing but a PR move....

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04-10-2012, 08:55 AM
  #93
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Last spring, in a similar 'Fire Howson' thread, I believe I voiced my support for Howson. I'm too lazy to find the thread, but my recollection was that I felt like he deserved one more year (Arniel, too) but that if we weren't at least in the playoff race come March, then I would agree it's time for a change.

Howson swung for the fences this past summer, and I liked the boldness of the moves. At the end of the day, however, the moves didn't work. Even if there are good reasons why they didn't work, it doesn't really matter.

This is a results-based business and in terms of the only results that count (regular season wins, place in the standings, playoff wins), Howson has failed miserably during his tenure - particularly the last 3 years.

Bottom line for me - Howson tried, he failed, he has to go.

With that said, we need to be damn sure that the replacement is the right one. We need to see if there are any other potential GM's that become available this summer (not Burke or Gauthier) before rushing into a hire. Is Doug Wilson's job safe? But in the meantime, I'm OK with Patrick serving as the bridge between Howson and the next hire.


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04-10-2012, 08:59 AM
  #94
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4 years with finishing with less then 82 points, and this years 61 is enough of a reason to can his a$$


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04-10-2012, 09:08 AM
  #95
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I honestly think we could miss the playoffs again next year and he would still have a job.

I also think Richards will be the coach next year. Oh and don't expect many changes on defense.

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04-10-2012, 09:54 AM
  #96
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I'm interjecting reality into your fantasy world.

I don't give two hoots about some kid in the OHL's stats. We've heard this argument a million times--the next bunch of prospects is always "special" an when they don't develop, there's always a convenient excuse.

Calvert and Kubalik are now guaranteed NHL players? Talk about delusional.

The reality is, there isn't any indication from his history as an NHL GM or Assistant GM that suggests Howson is a particularly good judge of amateur talent. Worse yet, there is good reason to suspect Howson's inaction in fixing the franchise's farm system has led to trouble developing talent after it is acquired.

The guy was picked as GM as a "capologist" and he couldn't even do that right.
I have no idea in what fantasy world you live. You twist my words and all kind of facts just to support your points without any logical reasoning behind that.
You blame Howson for bad Edmonton drafting even thought evaluating players wasn't Howson's responsibility in Edmonton! Whatever supports your argument. But for some reason you don't mention Edmonton's Stanley cap finals appearance.
Off course Howson should be blamed for bad drafting and can't be credited for taking part in putting together that team.
Why don't he get any credit for Chris Pronger's trade to Edmonton? He did put together the defence that went all the way to the finals! The Oil has been looking for that top-pairing defenseman since Pronger declared he wants out and they can't find any. At the same time Howson finds you JMFJ, Wiz and Nikitin in 1 year! Off course he has to go after that.

Quote:
Calvert and Kubalik are now guaranteed NHL players?
Where da hell did I say they're guaranteed NHL players?! That's impossible to have any conversation when someone is twisting you words to support his point. I said that
Quote:
"All of them could be good NHLers for years"
. See the difference? I thought my English ain't the best, but yours looks even worse.

You obviously didn't check some other better NHL teams draft record.Cause Howson has done a decent job comparing to some of them. Lets take a look at Chiarelli drafting. He came to Boston in 2006 (just a year before Howson), so lets see who he's got in 2007-09.

2007. He drafted only 1 player who made it to the NHL. Hamil, 8th overall, played 20 games and scored 0 goals.
2008. 3 guys combined for 12 NHL games and 1 goal so far.
2009. Jordan Caron is the only one to play more than 20 games among all of those guys the Bruins drafted in 3 years! He's got 22 points in 71 game. That's less points in more games than Johansen had last year!
So to sum it up only 6 players Boston drafted in 2007-09 have played an NHL game. Only one of them has played 20+ NHL games. They COMBINED for 11 goals and 21 assists.
Compare it to CBJ drafts. 10 players drafted in 2007-09 have played at least 1 NHL game. Seven of them have played 20+ NHL games. They COMBINED for 88 goals and 170 assists. You could add York as well.

If CBJ drafting is bad, how would you call what Boston has done so far?


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04-10-2012, 10:33 AM
  #97
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T
How far are you stretching the definition of "mistake"? Actually, don't answer that...you have Ian Clark as a mistake, despite the fact that he's the first guy in three years to get Steve Mason to turn in multiple good outings, as well as getting excellent goaltending from a career AHLer. Oh, and Raffi Torres....what a horrible mistake it was to turn a rapidly declining prospect into him, get his best years, and then trade him for a 2nd-rounder.
Ian Clark is judged by Mason's body of work - which overall was horrible. Another case of Howson relying on people with limited NHL experience.

Re: Torres, rapidly declining? Here are his numbers from this regular season:
15 goals, 11 assists, 26 points, +2

His 2008-2009 season in Columbus:
12 goals, 8 assists, 20 points, -4

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04-10-2012, 10:38 AM
  #98
Double-Shift Lassť
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post

Re: Torres, rapidly declining? Here are his numbers from this regular season:
15 goals, 11 assists, 26 points, +2
Um, that's not what he said.

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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Oh, and Raffi Torres....what a horrible mistake it was to turn a rapidly declining prospect into him, get his best years, and then trade him for a 2nd-rounder.

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04-10-2012, 10:47 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Um, that's not what he said.
Oops, you're right. My bad. I read that wrong.

The real question then is this (and I don't pretend to know the answer): who did we get with the 2nd rounder and is he worth more than what Raffi Torres is producing now?

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04-10-2012, 10:49 AM
  #100
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You blame Howson for bad Edmonton drafting even thought evaluating players wasn't Howson's responsibility in Edmonton!
No, I'm pointing out there is ZERO, reason to put the faith in his drafting that you seem to be putting. None. Responsible or not, either way he hasn't drafted a superstar in his entire time as a hockey executive. Got it?

Quote:
Whatever supports your argument. But for some reason you don't mention Edmonton's Stanley cap finals appearance.
Given that Howson didn't draft Chris Pronger, it is not relevant to a discussion of his drafting ability...which is the sole defense left for this pathetic GM. That somehow his drafting acumen will save us all.

Quote:
You obviously didn't check some other better NHL teams draft record....
Nice cherry picking. I love how you ignored Phil Kessel, Milan Lucic and Brad Marchand...all drafted in Chiarelli's first draft with the team! And then you ignored the year with Seguin (whom Kessel was traded for, essentially) as well! Just brilliant manipulation of reality to fit your fantasy world. Has Scott Howson drafted 4 players who have performed to that level to date?

The 3 players from Chiarelli's first draft that played more than 5 NHL games have 636 NHL points! Kind of makes Howson's 258 points from 7 players look weak, eh?

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