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The new "what to do about Howson" thread

View Poll Results: What should ownership do with GM Scott Howson during the offseason?
Keep him 18 21.43%
Fire him 66 78.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-10-2012, 12:45 PM
  #126
CapnCornelius
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
....and I'm guessing he didn't because he didn't have a good enough idea of what exactly was on the roster. Everything on the NHL and AHL rosters, plus the prospects in the system, would be viewed through an Edmonton lens.

So even if there were to be a change this offseason, the exact same thing would happen. Either someone would come in and stand pat in order to assess everything over the span of a year, or a bunch of changes would be made without having a good idea of what's in place already.
Come now. There have been plenty of GM's who have arrived and hit the ground running. The idea that you have to take 12 months to analyze every aspect is bogus. There are clear needs that a new GM could address day 1 without some huge concern that they hadn't looked at every AHL and ECHL prospect in the system--i.e. goaltending, forward depth, etc. There are not enough prospects that immediately resolve these issues that significant changes couldn't be made without a full system inventory.

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04-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #127
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....Regardless, I will agree that Howson isn't the most culpable here, Its Priest.
I don't get this - we have no idea what Priest really does or has done, other than vague rumors. Howson's job description is pretty clear and we can each judge how successful he has been for ourselves. It would seem that the most damning evidence against Priest is his hiring and continuing support of Howson. It's the only thing we clearly know about the guy! If he's condemned for that, how can one support his firing and keeping Howson? If one is willing to keep Howson, what is the reason for firing Priest? It makes no sense to me.

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04-10-2012, 01:19 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Come now. There have been plenty of GM's who have arrived and hit the ground running. The idea that you have to take 12 months to analyze every aspect is bogus. There are clear needs that a new GM could address day 1 without some huge concern that they hadn't looked at every AHL and ECHL prospect in the system--i.e. goaltending, forward depth, etc. There are not enough prospects that immediately resolve these issues that significant changes couldn't be made without a full system inventory.
In a salary cap world, where developing and signing from within is paramount, it's an entirely different story from what it used to be. And with a franchise that has very few older players, it would be kind of important to get an idea of what the prospects and younger roster players can do before making a bunch of moves.

The only players over 30 who played a game on the roster this year are Sanford (expiring contract), Huselius (expiring contract), Pahlsson (traded already), Martinek (expiring contract), and Prospal. Guys who are 29 or 30 are Umberger, Giroux (expiring contract), Lebda (expiring contract), and MacKenzie (expiring contract). Players who will be 29 by the start of next season are Tyutin and Aaron Johnson (expiring contract).

I don't think for a second that the current roster deficiencies are so glaring or so extensive that it would cost the farm, or much in the way of assets, to not only address but to entirely patch. If you want to go nuts and talk about needing to pick up Parise and Suter, that's fine, but I don't think that's something I'd do in lieu of adding two NHL goalies to the roster and a shutdown defenseman or two.

Look at this year's season-ending roster, plus...let's say Vokoun and Harding in net, and Barret Jackman and Mike Lundin on defense. Not exactly all-stars there, but I'd be willing to wager a small fortune on that being a playoff team.

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04-10-2012, 01:26 PM
  #129
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Not sure if it's been discussed, but when you watch the Brian Burke news conference today, it's painfully obvious we should fire Howson and everyone else in the front office. Say what you will about Burke, but that dude wants to win NOW and he would not tolerate a place like this for a second. Howson is a coward, an apologist, and a wimp.

I want players, coaches, and management who will crawl across hot broken glass to win a hockey game. Not because I want to get to the playoffs, but because I want to win multiple Stanley Cups.

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04-10-2012, 01:32 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Stretch Factor View Post
Not sure if it's been discussed, but when you watch the Brian Burke news conference today, it's painfully obvious we should fire Howson and everyone else in the front office. Say what you will about Burke, but that dude wants to win NOW and he would not tolerate a place like this for a second. Howson is a coward, an apologist, and a wimp.

I want players, coaches, and management who will crawl across hot broken glass to win a hockey game. Not because I want to get to the playoffs, but because I want to win multiple Stanley Cups.
So Brian Burke is more like Doug MacLean? There are an awful lot of parallels between them....everything from some absolutely bizarre trades and acquisitions to being able to simply bully over people to being criticized for creating and maintaining a "country club atmosphere".

If you want to do a head-to-head comparison of Howson in Columbus to Burke in Toronto, I'd be more than happy to do so...the only thing that Burke's done better is attract the camera and display an amount of arrogance and bravado that would make Rush Limbaugh blush.

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04-10-2012, 01:38 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
So Brian Burke is more like Doug MacLean? There are an awful lot of parallels between them....everything from some absolutely bizarre trades and acquisitions to being able to simply bully over people to being criticized for creating and maintaining a "country club atmosphere".

If you want to do a head-to-head comparison of Howson in Columbus to Burke in Toronto, I'd be more than happy to do so...the only thing that Burke's done better is attract the camera and display an amount of arrogance and bravado that would make Rush Limbaugh blush.
Like I said, say what you will about Burke. I'm pretty sure they spelled his name right on the Cup.

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04-10-2012, 01:46 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Show me some stats comparing him to all 30 NHL teams during the last 5 years. That's the relevant pool and the relevant period. Not some cherry picked crap about 3 years and one other team in the league.
I took Howson's first 3 drafts and compared them to the other team draft results because that's the ONLY drafts we can make some judgement about. You call it cherry picking. I've done some research to prove that Howson's drafts ain't bad wile you still haven't brought any untwisted facts to prove that his drafting skills are bad... Look at Detroit, Vancouver or Chicago (without their 1st overall Kane selection) drafts during that period and get surprised. If Howson has to be fired cause of his drafting skills then Detroit, Vancouver and Boston GMs should be fired as well... Vancouver drafted only 1 NHL player (Hodgson) in 3 years!
Well... Let's see how many players drafted in 2007-09 played 20+ games for the NHL teams already:
11- LA
9- Nashville, San Jose
7- Columbus, Buffalo, Philly, Colorado
6- St.Louis, Islanders, Anaheim, Rangers, Washington, Edmonton, New Jersey
5- Toronto, Minnesota, Montreal
4- Tampa, Phoenix, Carolina, Ottawa, Calgary, Florida
3- Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas
1- Boston, Vancouver, Pittsburgh
0- Detroit
The Jackets are obviously in the top half of the NHL in terms of drafts success over those years.

At any draft you can find some good players in late picks, but that wasn't Howson's job with Oilers! They were bad before him and remained bad after he left. Let's blame CBJ GM assistant for Brule and Picard selections, wtf. That probably him, not MacLean who's responsible for drafting.

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04-10-2012, 01:51 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Stretch Factor View Post
Like I said, say what you will about Burke. I'm pretty sure they spelled his name right on the Cup.
He inherited a team that had been to the Cup Final two seasons prior, had several excellent prospects on the way up, and benefited from having two future HOFers specifically wanting to sign on with the team (Niedermayer and Selanne). As far as trading, he got Chris Pronger and succeeded in fleecing Doug MacLean (not tough to do) in the Fedorov deal.

We're not exactly talking about a full build or even a rebuild here. And a big part of the current decline of the Ducks has to do with Burke's subpar drafting during his tenure there (which was Bobby Ryan and replacement-level depth).

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04-10-2012, 01:51 PM
  #134
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So Columbus has 7 players that have played 20+ games? How many of them would have hit the 20 game mark if not for injuries, crap FA signings, etc.

IMO, there is only one measurable stat. 30th place out of 30, and getting worse over the last three years. How a GM of any business keeps their job in that scenario speaks to how inept our management is.

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04-10-2012, 01:55 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Columbus Mike View Post
So Columbus has 7 players that have played 20+ games? How many of them would have hit the 20 game mark if not for injuries, crap FA signings, etc.
Do we get to ask the same question of everyone? And how on earth are injuries a sign of poor management?

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04-10-2012, 02:50 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Do we get to ask the same question of everyone? And how on earth are injuries a sign of poor management?
There are cases when it's a justifiable accusation - see Martinek, Radek. That involves simple pattern recognition.

That said, there aren't nearly as many such patterns on the 2011-2012 Blue Jackets as some would like to believe. (The folks who insist that we should have seen the Dekanich injuries coming, for example, still owe me winning lotto numbers.)

It's not a black-and-white "good" or "bad". Sometimes it is an indicator of poor planning. Frequently it isn't.

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04-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
I took Howson's first 3 drafts and compared them to the other team draft results because that's the ONLY drafts we can make some judgement about. You call it cherry picking. I've done some research to prove that Howson's drafts ain't bad wile you still haven't brought any untwisted facts to prove that his drafting skills are bad... Look at Detroit, Vancouver or Chicago (without their 1st overall Kane selection) drafts during that period and get surprised. If Howson has to be fired cause of his drafting skills then Detroit, Vancouver and Boston GMs should be fired as well... Vancouver drafted only 1 NHL player (Hodgson) in 3 years!
Well... Let's see how many players drafted in 2007-09 played 20+ games for the NHL teams already:
11- LA
9- Nashville, San Jose
7- Columbus, Buffalo, Philly, Colorado
6- St.Louis, Islanders, Anaheim, Rangers, Washington, Edmonton, New Jersey
5- Toronto, Minnesota, Montreal
4- Tampa, Phoenix, Carolina, Ottawa, Calgary, Florida
3- Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas
1- Boston, Vancouver, Pittsburgh
0- Detroit
The Jackets are obviously in the top half of the NHL in terms of drafts success over those years.

At any draft you can find some good players in late picks, but that wasn't Howson's job with Oilers! They were bad before him and remained bad after he left. Let's blame CBJ GM assistant for Brule and Picard selections, wtf. That probably him, not MacLean who's responsible for drafting.
I love that you reference Chicago...and then again cherry pick by eliminating Kane.

Detroit, Chicago and Boston's GM's won't get fired for drafting. Know why? They won the Cup!! When Howson wins a Cup, he'll also get a pass for sucking at drafting. But when it is your only (tired) defense for him, you'd better wow me. And it'd best be better than "top half"...which could be mere mediocrity.

Furthermore, 20+ games really means nothing divorced from the other relevant facts and statistics. If more players are playing not because they are good prospects but because you failed to put NHL caliber players on your team and are forced to dip in your prospect pool (see MacLean, Doug), you didn't succeed at drafting, you just failed at the other parts of your job! Heck Filatov was one of those +20 you are referring to and he's already out of the league.

In fact, why don't you be honest with folks about the players you are touting in Howson's draft prowess argument: Filatov, Calvert (probably never going to play in the NHL on a consistent basis), Voracek, Max Mayorov (not likely to ever be an NHL player), Moore, Savard, Atkison. There's quantity, but the quality isn't overwhelming.

In fact, I could argue that Doug MacLean had similar success in his last 2 drafts. Here are the NHL players Doug's final 2 drafts produced: Brassard, Mason, Dorsett, Sestito (under your 20+ game argument), Brule, McQuaid, Russell, Boll. Now, does that make Doug MacLean a drafting genius?

As for MacLean's assistants (some of which are still kept on) believe it or not, yes, they do bear some responsibility! Do you think the GM personally scouts all of these picks? Heck no. His scouts and assistant GM's advise him.

We've got people saying what a great scout Howson is and you're telling me that he wasn't involved at all in scouting while in Edmonton and has no culpability for the Oilers poor drafting. Must have more on-the-job training for Scotty on how to draft.

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04-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #138
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Look at this year's season-ending roster, plus...let's say Vokoun and Harding in net, and Barret Jackman and Mike Lundin on defense. Not exactly all-stars there, but I'd be willing to wager a small fortune on that being a playoff team.
And I'd be willing to wager this GM couldn't get both Vokoun and Harding and he'd be lucky to get one of them.

Once again Howson's trademark "patience" has put him in a bind at a key position. Once again the options are scant to fix it leaving his apologists their usual out that "there just aren't that many options." Well, if Scott had set to fixing the problem when it first became apparent, he'd have had more time and more options.

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04-10-2012, 03:22 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
Ian Clark is judged by Mason's body of work - which overall was horrible. Another case of Howson relying on people with limited NHL experience
Be careful, statements like this make it seem like you're just looking for things to complain about.

http://eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=1222

The guy had 10 years of NHL/Hockey Canada experience before he was hired.

If he's inexperienced, what the hell do you consider "experienced?"

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04-10-2012, 03:29 PM
  #140
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And I'd be willing to wager this GM couldn't get both Vokoun and Harding and he'd be lucky to get one of them.
Couldn't or wouldn't? The rumor was that a couple of agents, including one of a player listed above, contacted the Jackets and was told "We're set.".

Sometimes we seem to believe that because something didn't happen we failed at accomplishing that goal. When the truth is we never even tried.

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04-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
And I'd be willing to wager this GM couldn't get both Vokoun and Harding and he'd be lucky to get one of them.

Once again Howson's trademark "patience" has put him in a bind at a key position. Once again the options are scant to fix it leaving his apologists their usual out that "there just aren't that many options." Well, if Scott had set to fixing the problem when it first became apparent, he'd have had more time and more options.
If I'm Howson, I'm begging Prospal to try and convince him to come here.

I know family is pretty important to Vokoun. Maybe stability is more important to him than taking less money/a shorter contract to play on a contender.

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04-10-2012, 03:54 PM
  #142
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Couldn't or wouldn't? The rumor was that a couple of agents, including one of a player listed above, contacted the Jackets and was told "We're set.".

Sometimes we seem to believe that because something didn't happen we failed at accomplishing that goal. When the truth is we never even tried.
And this has been an ongoing issue. As I recall, when Phaneuf was traded it came out that Howson hadn't even picked up the phone. There have been some other instances where players that seemingly filled a need we were told the Jackets hadn't inquired about. And sometimes that makes sense because the guy isn't a fit. But it seems to happen fairly frequently with this GM.

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If I'm Howson, I'm begging Prospal to try and convince him to come here.

I know family is pretty important to Vokoun. Maybe stability is more important to him than taking less money/a shorter contract to play on a contender.
Vokoun makes me nervous. He's in his mid-30's. "Stability" usually comes at the price of a long-term contract, which has additional implications under the current CBA (and we have no idea how it will work under the next CBA). There's no doubt he'd be an improvement, but he wouldn't be my A#1 choice.

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04-10-2012, 03:55 PM
  #143
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See, I'm just the opposite. I don't think this guy wins any executive of the year awards at this level. "Serviceable" might be the most favorable description I would give him now, interestingly enough, I thought this would be all we'd need in the wake of the MacLean, but enter another overbearing Team President and you have what Howson has become.... Total Milquetoast.
I hear you. Like I said, his record justifies a dismissal, there's no arguing that.
But without the promise of a significant, or obvious upgrade, I don't see the point in dropping a youngish GM with potential who may be on the verge of "breaking out".
Funny, though, I imagine he's had that same line of thought dealing with Mason, a situation I kind of see as his greatest failure.
Who knows, though. I've never claimed to be a great hockey mind. I just think there are bigger problems than Howson.

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04-10-2012, 04:10 PM
  #144
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Be careful, statements like this make it seem like you're just looking for things to complain about.

http://eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=1222

The guy had 10 years of NHL/Hockey Canada experience before he was hired.

If he's inexperienced, what the hell do you consider "experienced?"
I stand corrected. Thank you for the link. Now I'm wondering who the hell I was thinking about?!?

I hereby face palm myself.

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04-10-2012, 04:13 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
Be careful, statements like this make it seem like you're just looking for things to complain about.

http://eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=1222

The guy had 10 years of NHL/Hockey Canada experience before he was hired.

If he's inexperienced, what the hell do you consider "experienced?"
"Experienced enough to not want to work for the Blue Jackets", evidently.

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04-10-2012, 04:14 PM
  #146
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I stand corrected. Thank you for the link. Now I'm wondering who the hell I was thinking about?!?

I hereby face palm myself.
My guess is that you were thinking of Dave Rook, who was Mason's goaltending coach in junior, and who was deservedly given the heave-ho last year when we decided we were going to get a full-time guy.

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04-10-2012, 04:15 PM
  #147
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"Experienced enough to not want to work for the Blue Jackets", evidently.
Just keep piling on.

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04-10-2012, 04:15 PM
  #148
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My guess is that you were thinking of Dave Rook, who was Mason's goaltending coach in junior, and who was deservedly given the heave-ho last year when we decided we were going to get a full-time guy.
That's it!

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04-10-2012, 04:21 PM
  #149
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I hear you. Like I said, his record justifies a dismissal, there's no arguing that.
But without the promise of a significant, or obvious upgrade, I don't see the point in dropping a youngish GM with potential who may be on the verge of "breaking out".
Funny, though, I imagine he's had that same line of thought dealing with Mason, a situation I kind of see as his greatest failure.
Who knows, though. I've never claimed to be a great hockey mind. I just think there are bigger problems than Howson.
Wait, I've got it! Two birds with one stones. Pull a NYI and fire Howson and replace him with Mason! Problems solved.

Seriously, here's an (incomplete) list of some possibilities.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...tes/53562872/1

Paul Fenton probably would top my list out of those listed.

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04-10-2012, 04:30 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
And this has been an ongoing issue. As I recall, when Phaneuf was traded it came out that Howson hadn't even picked up the phone. There have been some other instances where players that seemingly filled a need we were told the Jackets hadn't inquired about. And sometimes that makes sense because the guy isn't a fit. But it seems to happen fairly frequently with this GM.
That depends on whether you take those reports at face value. "I didn't call to ask about Dion Phaneuf" could mean any of the following.

- "I called about a defenseman, and slowly worked around to Phaneuf. I did not call with the specific words 'I'm asking about Dion Phaneuf' to start off with, but it got there eventually."
- "They called me about Dion Phaneuf, but we couldn't get a deal done. Me stating that I didn't call them is accurate."
- "I faxed or emailed them about Dion Phaneuf."
- "They called about a player on our roster, and I asked about Dion Phaneuf."
- "They did a deal, and we had no idea that he was available. Frankly, we're all shocked that it got done that quickly and for that meager of a return. Somewhere, the architects of the Joe Thornton trade are shocked."
- "I did call and ask about Dion Phaneuf, but I'm mindful that rumblings of a potential blockbuster trade can have an unsettling effect in the locker room, so I'm not admitting to it."
- "I did call and ask about Dion Phaneuf, but I believe that a public vote of confidence in our current defensemen will provide an improvement in their play."
- "I did call and ask about Dion Phaneuf, but I'm not telling anyone in the media that I did so because you're all a bunch of pinheads who are on a need-to-know basis and you don't need to know."

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Wait, I've got it! Two birds with one stones. Pull a NYI and fire Howson and replace him with Mason! Problems solved.

Seriously, here's an (incomplete) list of some possibilities.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...tes/53562872/1

Paul Fenton probably would top my list out of those listed.
Before reading that, I had honestly gone a good week without ever thinking of Jason Botterill in any context.

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