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The new "what to do about Howson" thread

View Poll Results: What should ownership do with GM Scott Howson during the offseason?
Keep him 18 21.43%
Fire him 66 78.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-10-2012, 04:35 PM
  #151
JF Omalycat
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Wait, I've got it! Two birds with one stones. Pull a NYI and fire Howson and replace him with Mason! Problems solved.

Seriously, here's an (incomplete) list of some possibilities.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...tes/53562872/1

Paul Fenton probably would top my list out of those listed.

Fenton would do.

McGuire for team president? Not sure how he'd rub the locals.

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04-10-2012, 04:41 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by JF Omalycat View Post

McGuire for team president? Not sure how he'd rub the locals.
I was just in the process of typing exactly that suggestion

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04-10-2012, 04:41 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
There are cases when it's a justifiable accusation - see Martinek, Radek. That involves simple pattern recognition.

That said, there aren't nearly as many such patterns on the 2011-2012 Blue Jackets as some would like to believe. (The folks who insist that we should have seen the Dekanich injuries coming, for example, still owe me winning lotto numbers.)

It's not a black-and-white "good" or "bad". Sometimes it is an indicator of poor planning. Frequently it isn't.
Martinek's history looks a lot like Klesla's to me. There's random structural injuries. That's generally a safer bet than random muscle/connective tissue injuries, or especially patterned muscle injuries (Pascal Leclaire).

Yes, there was the concussion, and it was a bad one. One of the unfortunate realities of head injuries is that it's entirely speculative as to whether or not there will be a future one, and if so, how severe it may end up being. He may have been entirely fine if not for exactly how he suffered the one this year...weird things can happen with the head. Dominic Moore's younger brother suffered one where he got bumped on the jaw, and somehow he bruised his brain stem. He had no concussion history, and it's been over 10 years, and he can't exercise without suffering ill effects.

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04-10-2012, 04:45 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by JF Omalycat View Post
McGuire for team president? Not sure how he'd rub the locals.
If "the locals" is slang for "Sidney Crosby", the answer is very lovingly and passionately.

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04-10-2012, 05:16 PM
  #155
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Martinek's history looks a lot like Klesla's to me.
Did you have to remind me? I wasn't thrilled about Howson re-signing Rusty either. But, hey, he figured out his mistake a few months later and traded him for two expiring contracts.

"The circle, the circle of life!"

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04-10-2012, 05:22 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by JF Omalycat View Post
Fenton would do.

McGuire for team president? Not sure how he'd rub the locals.
He would be an improvement over Priest and a better choice than Milbury or Roenick. I'd rather see Clement, Clement "Hands of Cement" in the President's role, but only if Gary Thorne gets a job commentating the junior Jackets games between periods.

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04-10-2012, 06:25 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
The team was able to finish at .550 (which is good for 90 points and 9th place in any conference) with only 2 NHL d-men and ECHL goalie in net. This IS a surge.
Setting aside the veracity of this claim, who would be responsible for icing a roster with "2 NHL d-men and an ECHL goalie in net?"

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04-10-2012, 06:40 PM
  #158
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BTW MAYOR BEE,

In case anyone hasn't said it, thanks for the thread, for a precise poll, and for all the work on the numbers. The numbers are very interesting.

It's a great example of a good thread starter that isn't 8 paragraphs of run-on sentences.

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04-10-2012, 07:11 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by JACKETfan View Post
BTW MAYOR BEE,

In case anyone hasn't said it, thanks for the thread, for a precise poll, and for all the work on the numbers. The numbers are very interesting.

It's a great example of a good thread starter that isn't 8 paragraphs of run-on sentences.
Well, there's irony for ya!

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04-10-2012, 09:45 PM
  #160
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Another indictment of Howson:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...907/story.html

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04-10-2012, 09:49 PM
  #161
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...and this is news because...?

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Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!
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04-10-2012, 10:23 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
This type of "analysis" makes no sense, since players who are on injured reserve or otherwise unavailable but on the active roster still count.

So at times when Columbus was carrying 29, 30, or 31 players on the roster (as was the case for a good chunk of the year due to injuries), it's going to skew relative to teams with few players out at a given time.

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04-10-2012, 10:31 PM
  #163
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While there have been some moves that have helped the CBJ under Howson's watch, I think more damage than good has been done over the long haul. I would rather see new blood come in and take over and guide the franchise. We have the core talent in place to build around, and I still think Nash can be a player for us if the bumbling front office idiots were gone.

As it is, they'll stay, Nash will be gone, and we'll take a step backwards, given my fear is Nash will thrive elsewhere and we'll end up not getting a good haul on the trade.

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04-10-2012, 10:34 PM
  #164
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...and this is news because...?
Just piling on.

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04-11-2012, 06:27 AM
  #165
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He couldn't even win the lottery-last straw.

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04-11-2012, 09:25 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
I love that you reference Chicago...and then again cherry pick by eliminating Kane.
So winning the draft lottery is a sign of a good drafting skills? And eliminating 1st overall is a cherry picking?!!! Tambellini in you world is probably the best drafting NHL GM since he was able to get 3 1st overall picks in a row. What a genius!

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Detroit, Chicago and Boston's GM's won't get fired for drafting. Know why? They won the Cup!! When Howson wins a Cup, he'll also get a pass for sucking at drafting. But when it is your only (tired) defense for him, you'd better wow me. And it'd best be better than "top half"...which could be mere mediocrity.
Sometimes I think people like you want this team to loose in every area for a long time so they have a reason to complain.
We talk about drafting and drafting only. We compare drafting skills and at the same time you mention some Cup wins which is totally irrelevant to the success at the NHL drafts that happened during the same period of time.

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Furthermore, 20+ games really means nothing divorced from the other relevant facts and statistics. If more players are playing not because they are good prospects but because you failed to put NHL caliber players on your team and are forced to dip in your prospect pool (see MacLean, Doug), you didn't succeed at drafting, you just failed at the other parts of your job! Heck Filatov was one of those +20 you are referring to and he's already out of the league.
Make your own research and bring those facts and statistics. I've seen a bunch of your statements that Howson sucks at drafting and have never seen any proves of that statement. You mention Filatov over and over even though he was the consensus top-5 pick by any scouting agency ratings.

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In fact, why don't you be honest with folks about the players you are touting in Howson's draft prowess argument: Filatov, Calvert (probably never going to play in the NHL on a consistent basis), Voracek, Max Mayorov (not likely to ever be an NHL player), Moore, Savard, Atkison. There's quantity, but the quality isn't overwhelming.
You can say same thing about other teams selections. I also excluded Kubalik, Goloubef, Regner, Sean Collins, Will Weber and York - all of them has potential to be NHLers one day. Feel free to bring in ANY stats that prove Howson's bad draft record besides the permanent pointing at Filatov.
Quote:
In fact, I could argue that Doug MacLean had similar success in his last 2 drafts. Here are the NHL players Doug's final 2 drafts produced: Brassard, Mason, Dorsett, Sestito (under your 20+ game argument), Brule, McQuaid, Russell, Boll. Now, does that make Doug MacLean a drafting genius?
I never said MacLean drafts were totally bad. You just proved it. He would have been genius if he picked Kopitar instead of Brule, I see those drafts as a decent. Some other people were pointing how bad his drafts were. Well, he picked Calder trophy winner in the 3rd round. At some point we could trade him for Brad Richards! We all forget about it cause of his followed failure.

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As for MacLean's assistants (some of which are still kept on) believe it or not, yes, they do bear some responsibility! Do you think the GM personally scouts all of these picks? Heck no. His scouts and assistant GM's advise him.
Scouts - yeas. That's their job. Assistants - highly doubtful.
Quote:
We've got people saying what a great scout Howson is and you're telling me that he wasn't involved at all in scouting while in Edmonton and has no culpability for the Oilers poor drafting. Must have more on-the-job training for Scotty on how to draft.
As I said before Howson could have had his opinion that didn't meet Low's priorities. But drafting obviously wasn't his responsibility. We don't know about that! Therefore we can't blame Howson for the bad results.


Last edited by bizzz*: 04-11-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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04-11-2012, 09:38 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
Setting aside the veracity of this claim, who would be responsible for icing a roster with "2 NHL d-men and an ECHL goalie in net?"
Howson? Because he was able to get those 2 NHL d-men during the season? Otherwise we would have had none.
At the beginning of the year our top-4 was Toots, Wiz, Martinek and Methot. All of them were injured at that time.
Again. The Oil is looking for ANY legit top-4 nhl d-men since Pronger was traded away to the Ducks. They just cant get any cause top-4 guys don't grow on the trees. Howson was able to get 3 top-4 d-men in a year, which is amazing fact considering the possibilities were very limited.

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04-11-2012, 09:40 AM
  #168
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And this has been an ongoing issue. As I recall, when Phaneuf was traded it came out that Howson hadn't even picked up the phone. There have been some other instances where players that seemingly filled a need we were told the Jackets hadn't inquired about. And sometimes that makes sense because the guy isn't a fit. But it seems to happen fairly frequently with this GM.
Yes, I can not come up with a rhyme or reason with Howson and the players he dismisses at times.

Quote:
Vokoun makes me nervous. He's in his mid-30's. "Stability" usually comes at the price of a long-term contract, which has additional implications under the current CBA (and we have no idea how it will work under the next CBA). There's no doubt he'd be an improvement, but he wouldn't be my A#1 choice.
You aren't going to find a #1A choice via FA. You probably aren't going to find it via trade. Vokoun is a solid two year contract kind of guy. Since I'm not looking, and certainly not expecting, for a long term solution it's not all that concerning to me.

Just need to keep our eyes out and take the opportunity when it arises. We may not up with solid journeymen until we can develop our own. It's not all that difficult to get a two or three year stop gap kind of guy. It's far harder to get that long term guy. At least one that is established as a #1. Oh we might be able to anoint someone who we think can be a #1, but having a guy like Vokoun there in case he struggles in a good thing.

I don't want to over spend for a guy like Schnieder or Rask and end up with someone that doesn't live up to our lofty expectations, have Howson think we are set in goal, and leave Mason as the backup. That's the type of scenario that Howson is famous for and could, quite likely, happen with our defense this upcoming season.

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04-11-2012, 10:50 AM
  #169
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Well, he picked Calder trophy winner in the 3rd round. At some point we could trade him for Brad Richards! We all forget about it cause of his followed failure.
I don't know why this keeps popping up, but stop, please. It was widely known that Feaster wanted an NHL goaltender for Richards. Its why Mike Smith ultimately was included in the deal. It was LeClaire (24-17-6 in 07-08) that Howson didn't want to part with that season, not Mason, who wasn't even on the roster at that point. Richards was traded at the deadline the season before LeClaire again was injured early and Mason came in.


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04-11-2012, 11:09 AM
  #170
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I don't know why this keeps popping up, but stop, please. It was widely known that Feaster wanted an NHL goaltender for Richards. Its why Mike Smith ultimately was included in the deal. It was LeClaire (24-17-6 in 07-08) that Howson didn't want to part with that season, not Mason, who wasn't even on the roster at that point. Richards was traded at the deadline the season before LeClaire again was injured early and Mason came in.
I dunno. But post and articles like this one you can find all over the internet:
Quote:
When Richards was originally traded to Dallas, it was pretty well established that the Jackets were trying hard to get him from Tampa Bay, and a deal on the table fell through because they were unwilling to throw (then prospect) Steve Mason into the deal.

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04-11-2012, 11:34 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
I dunno. But post and articles like this one you can find all over the internet:
"Tooley: Was the lack of a goalie in the Richards deal the reason for not landing Richards?

Howson: Hard to say if that's the only reason. Pascal was obviously not going to be in the deal. We have Mason, but they have other young goalies. They wanted someone who can play now and we didn't have it. "


This is from a thread on trade deadline day 2008, when Howson was with (at the time (1460 AM) (Tooley is former host Bruce Hooley) (Matthew was the original poster)

Everything I'm reading about Mason in the deal seems to be from the fans or opinions... this was straight from the horses mouth.

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04-11-2012, 11:44 AM
  #172
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Howson? Because he was able to get those 2 NHL d-men during the season? Otherwise we would have had none.
And right there is the problem--he started the season with 2 NHL d-men he could count on. We all knew Martinek was a risk and there was no plan B. Poor planning. But this time will be different...


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04-11-2012, 11:55 AM
  #173
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We talk about drafting and drafting only. We compare drafting skills and at the same time you mention some Cup wins which is totally irrelevant to the success at the NHL drafts that happened during the same period of time.
Actually, it is not irrelevant given that the Cup winner has a much worse draft position than the worst team in the league. If you want to further scrutinize Howson's GM, how about his yield based on the position he's drafted in? You are digging the hole further and further.


Quote:
Make your own research and bring those facts and statistics. I've seen a bunch of your statements that Howson sucks at drafting and have never seen any proves of that statement. You mention Filatov over and over even though he was the consensus top-5 pick by any scouting agency ratings.
So was Gilbert Brule. Should we re-hire Doug MacLean? I don't care about scouting agency ratings which typically look at skill as opposed to intangibles. The burden of proof is on those defending Howson based on his drafting to show that there is some metric to prove their assertion given his obvious failures where it counts--on the ice. The burden of proof has not been met.

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I also excluded Kubalik, Goloubef, Regner, Sean Collins, Will Weber and York - all of them has potential to be NHLers one day.
So does every 5 year old kid in Canada. "Potential" is more often not reached than it is reached.

Quote:
I never said MacLean drafts were totally bad. You just proved it. He would have been genius if he picked Kopitar instead of Brule, I see those drafts as a decent. Some other people were pointing how bad his drafts were. Well, he picked Calder trophy winner in the 3rd round. At some point we could trade him for Brad Richards! We all forget about it cause of his followed failure.
Those defending Howson are now also Doug MacLean apologists. Wow. So much for accountability.


Quote:
Scouts - yeas. That's their job. Assistants - highly doubtful.
Maybe you should know something about hockey operations in the NHL before you make such assertions. Here's the description directly from the Jackets website on Howson's own assistant, Chris MacFarland.

Quote:
Chris MacFarland has been a member of the Columbus Blue Jackets hockey operations department since prior to the 1999-00 NHL season and was named assistant general manager of the club in July 2008.

MacFarland is responsible for assisting General Manager Scott Howson in all hockey-related matters including scouting, player contract research and negotiations, salary cap management and arbitration, collective bargaining agreement administration, budgeting and team scheduling issues.
I think Howson may send you an e-mail to ask you to stop defending him soon. His approval rating seems to have plummetted since you started your defense.

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04-11-2012, 11:58 AM
  #174
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Yes, I can not come up with a rhyme or reason with Howson and the players he dismisses at times.



You aren't going to find a #1A choice via FA. You probably aren't going to find it via trade. Vokoun is a solid two year contract kind of guy. Since I'm not looking, and certainly not expecting, for a long term solution it's not all that concerning to me.

Just need to keep our eyes out and take the opportunity when it arises. We may not up with solid journeymen until we can develop our own. It's not all that difficult to get a two or three year stop gap kind of guy. It's far harder to get that long term guy. At least one that is established as a #1. Oh we might be able to anoint someone who we think can be a #1, but having a guy like Vokoun there in case he struggles in a good thing.

I don't want to over spend for a guy like Schnieder or Rask and end up with someone that doesn't live up to our lofty expectations, have Howson think we are set in goal, and leave Mason as the backup. That's the type of scenario that Howson is famous for and could, quite likely, happen with our defense this upcoming season.
If you want a stop gap, the other Bruins goalie might not be a bad option in trade.

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04-11-2012, 12:02 PM
  #175
Viqsi
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
And right there is the problem--he started the season with 2 NHL d-men he could count on. We all knew Martinek was a risk and there was no plan B. Poor planning. But this time will be different...
...because now we have four, with the possibility of a fifth if Moore keeps improving and a sixth if Methot rebounds?

Yeah, I really do think this time will be different.

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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Those defending Howson are now also Doug MacLean apologists. Wow. So much for accountability.

...

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