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Old
04-11-2012, 11:09 AM
  #26
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
You can't compare a 3rd line grinder with upside to Jbo, you need to compare him to similar players or at least the same position.

Jack Johnson IMO is the same skating level as Jbo, is more physical, arguably the same offense level and play similar roles.

Except Jj has a caphit of 4.4 vs Jbo at 6.6 and is several years younger. Jbo doesn't play at. 5m level he is at 4-4.5m value given his role and what he has done offensively.

So how does that work? There's no way you can spin it to make that 6.6 look good on Jbo unless he all of a sudden puts up giant offensive numbers.
Except JJ took a pay cut to stay with LA and Jbow was about to be a free agent who cashed in. When was the last time a number 1 defenseman went to FA?

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04-11-2012, 01:08 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Except JJ took a pay cut to stay with LA and Jbow was about to be a free agent who cashed in. When was the last time a number 1 defenseman went to FA?
Jbo being a #1 at this point is fairly debatable heh and could stand to reason why he wasn't retained.

Boyle, Chara, Streit, Gonchar, Gio, Timmonen come o mind as prominent dmen signed as fa's.

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04-11-2012, 01:22 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
You can't compare a 3rd line grinder with upside to Jbo, you need to compare him to similar players or at least the same position.

Jack Johnson IMO is the same skating level as Jbo, is more physical, arguably the same offense level and play similar roles.

Except Jj has a caphit of 4.4 vs Jbo at 6.6 and is several years younger. Jbo doesn't play at. 5m level he is at 4-4.5m value given his role and what he has done offensively.

So how does that work? There's no way you can spin it to make that 6.6 look good on Jbo unless he all of a sudden puts up giant offensive numbers.
JJ is overpaid at 4.4; JBo would be below market value at that. They're both good skaters, but JJ is a PP specialist who's miscast as an ES impact defenceman, and JBo is a legitimate shutdown D with somewhat average offensive abilities. I'd rather have JBo at his current pricetag than JJ at 4.4 simply because JBo is useful during the 80% of the game that's played at ES; JJ is a detriment at ES.

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04-11-2012, 01:26 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Jbo being a #1 at this point is fairly debatable heh and could stand to reason why he wasn't retained.

Boyle, Chara, Streit, Gonchar, Gio, Timmonen come o mind as prominent dmen signed as fa's.
And the majority make around what Jbow makes so he signed at number 1 defenseman money, and has been greatly misused it would be like making Streit play a defensive defenseman role he would be terrible at it. Atleast Jboe is a capable defensive defenseman.

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04-11-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Jbo being a #1 at this point is fairly debatable heh and could stand to reason why he wasn't retained.

Boyle, Chara, Streit, Gonchar, Gio, Timmonen come o mind as prominent dmen signed as fa's.
Boyle and Gio weren't even close to reaching free agency and resigned with their teams

Streit became a UFA after 1 good offensive season, his defense was still a huge question mark.

Gonchar was 36 years old and had missed 75 games in the previous 2 seasons.

Timonen and Chara are the only valid examples you used and considering Chara left Ottawa 3 years before Bouwmeester left the Panthers it goes to show how rare top pairing defensemen are available and why they get overpaid so much.

And considering the frequency of these players hitting free agency has declined it makes Bouwmeester just that much more valuable.

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04-11-2012, 01:29 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Jbo being a #1 at this point is fairly debatable heh and could stand to reason why he wasn't retained.

Boyle, Chara, Streit, Gonchar, Gio, Timmonen come o mind as prominent dmen signed as fa's.
Boyle, Giordano and Timonen never made it to FA; at least not as prominent defencemen. Timonen, like Bouwmeester, had his rights traded to the Flyers before UFA even began.

Bouwmeester was very much a number one defensemen with Florida, who tried to re-sign him repeatedly despite him making it clear he didn't want to stay with the Panthers.

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04-11-2012, 04:02 PM
  #32
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But just like all he counter examples Jbo never made it to fa. We signed him with those rights from FLA did we not? He's basically the same example of a resign not as a ufa. So really speaking he wasn't a ufa dman either.


My example for Boyle and Gio was tht both were fa signings originally and not drafted heh.

Think you guys underrate Jj too, I think he is a good two way dman that hits. Either that or the Lak system makes him look good I suppose.

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04-11-2012, 04:22 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
But just like all he counter examples Jbo never made it to fa. We signed him with those rights from FLA did we not? He's basically the same example of a resign not as a ufa. So really speaking he wasn't a ufa dman either.


My example for Boyle and Gio was tht both were fa signings originally and not drafted heh.
Neither of them were prominent defencemen when they were FA's and thus are in no way comparable to the Bouwmeester signing.

Quote:
Think you guys underrate Jj too, I think he is a good two way dman that hits. Either that or the Lak system makes him look good I suppose.
He's really not.

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04-11-2012, 04:38 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfong View Post
But just like all he counter examples Jbo never made it to fa. We signed him with those rights from FLA did we not? He's basically the same example of a resign not as a ufa. So really speaking he wasn't a ufa dman either.
He was days from it. There was little time to cobble together an offer. The Flames effectively dropped from 20th to 23rd and moved Leopold away a few days early to call dibs on Bouwmeester. It's a good move, however it still basically puts you in the same position the old team was in...that close to UFA, you're basically treating the player as a free agent.

Most analysts were proclaiming 6.5 million for Bouwmeester and the Flames paid market value for him. You overpay for big names on or close to free agency. It's the tax for getting them without surrendering assets: Everybody gets a crack and you have to make your offer stand out somehow. I really don't expect Suter or Parise to completely make their wage at whatever team they end up with unless they take a dip in salary to play with a competitive team.

Timonen is IMO the best comparable. He was a pretty big name going into UFA, was traded for negotiating rights early (if memory serves), and pressed the Flyers for money.

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04-11-2012, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kirant View Post
He was days from it. There was little time to cobble together an offer. The Flames effectively dropped from 20th to 23rd and moved Leopold away a few days early to call dibs on Bouwmeester. It's a good move, however it still basically puts you in the same position the old team was in...that close to UFA, you're basically treating the player as a free agent.

Most analysts were proclaiming 6.5 million for Bouwmeester and the Flames paid market value for him. You overpay for big names on or close to free agency. It's the tax for getting them without surrendering assets: Everybody gets a crack and you have to make your offer stand out somehow. I really don't expect Suter or Parise to completely make their wage at whatever team they end up with unless they take a dip in salary to play with a competitive team.

Timonen is IMO the best comparable. He was a pretty big name going into UFA, was traded for negotiating rights early (if memory serves), and pressed the Flyers for money.
No Timonen and Hartnell were traded together and I believe their signings were announced a the time of the trade being announced. Philly negotiated with them before the trade.

It is also widely believe this was an under the table deal the Preds had with Philly as an underlying part of the Forsberg deal where Nashville's 1st was returned to them for Hartnell and Timonen.

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04-11-2012, 04:46 PM
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No Timonen and Hartnell were traded together and I believe their signings were announced a the time of the trade being announced. Philly negotiated with them before the trade.

It is also widely believe this was an under the table deal the Preds had with Philly as an underlying part of the Forsberg deal where Nashville's 1st was returned to them for Hartnell and Timonen.
http://articles.philly.com/2007-06-1...e-agent-market

trade and signings were made 2 weeks prior to free agency

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04-11-2012, 04:49 PM
  #37
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This thread is so derailed I think we can all agree that Jbow hasn't produced what we thought when he signed here but I think we can all agree as well that he is being misused and has changed his game fairly well given that he was never a great defensive defenseman before.


Back on topic do we know if GlenX is going to the WC?

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04-11-2012, 04:54 PM
  #38
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no word yet

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04-11-2012, 05:30 PM
  #39
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Now, it is time for J-Bo's curse to be put upon Team Canada.

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04-16-2012, 06:09 PM
  #40
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http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=627875


Butler joins Team USA at the WC. Good for Butler, this will be a good experience for him.

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04-16-2012, 10:23 PM
  #41
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Brent is on as coach for Canada (and you thought we were rid of him... ). Think this sways anyone from the Flames for/against playing?

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04-16-2012, 10:36 PM
  #42
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Brent is on as coach for Canada (and you thought we were rid of him... ). Think this sways anyone from the Flames for/against playing?
Maybe Sutter waited until Iginla declined playing before Sutter accepted the job. But in all seriousness, I'm sure Sutter is hoping Kevin Lowe sends an invite to Kostopolous, so that way Sutter has himself a top line winger.

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04-16-2012, 10:38 PM
  #43
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Maybe Sutter waited until Iginla declined playing before Sutter accepted the job. But in all seriousness, I'm sure Sutter is hoping Kevin Lowe sends an invite to Kostopolous, so that way Sutter has himself a top line winger.
He has Jbow as shutdown defenseman how can he lose?

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04-16-2012, 10:47 PM
  #44
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Maybe Sutter waited until Iginla declined playing before Sutter accepted the job. But in all seriousness, I'm sure Sutter is hoping Kevin Lowe sends an invite to Kostopolous, so that way Sutter has himself a top line winger.
Will Jackman and Stajan get invites too? Right there we have a SOLID first line. Seriously.

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04-16-2012, 11:04 PM
  #45
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Will Jackman and Stajan get invites too? Right there we have a SOLID first line. Seriously.
Jackman is a yank

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04-24-2012, 04:40 PM
  #46
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Looks like that's all we have for the Flames in the WC?

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04-25-2012, 06:57 PM
  #47
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Looks like that's all we have for the Flames in the WC?
Well I hear the Raitis Ivanans may play for Latvia

But in all seriousness I think that Sven may be able to make the Swiss team if he wants to play.

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04-25-2012, 07:07 PM
  #48
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But in all seriousness I think that Sven may be able to make the Swiss team if he wants to play.
He's a little busy right now

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04-26-2012, 07:05 PM
  #49
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When is the date that you can't add any more players? If Sven gets knocked out I'm sure he'd want the chance to play.

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04-27-2012, 12:56 AM
  #50
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When is the date that you can't add any more players? If Sven gets knocked out I'm sure he'd want the chance to play.
Not sure on the exact date but Portland finished off Tri-City tonight and are heading to the WHL finals.

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