Hi guys, first post so be gentle. I´ve got two questions that are somewhat historical in nature and somewhat connected:
1. What´s the most blatant act of unsportsmanlike conduct you´ve ever witnessed in the NHL or otherwise? Personally for me it would be Chris Pronger stealing the game puck against the Blackhawks in 2010 when someone scored their first playoff goal( or something along those lines), unneccesary, unsportsmanlike but still real funny and probably pretty efficient in terms of winning the next game.
2. I personally consider the rough and tumble part of hockey one of the ingredients that separates the NHL from other leagues, it just adds to the mythical status of the league and the players in it, without guys like Marchment, Samuelsson, Kasparaitis, Avery and so on i think the great feats by star players and such would be somewhat diminished, would love to get some sort of discussion going on this, does it have a place in the game or is it just downright awful?
Good choice, coincidentally Dale Hunter happens to be one of my favourite players all time
Not mine, far too many nasty battles of Quebec to allow that
Just like I'm sure there are a few ex-Nords fans around still that can't stand Chris Nilan.
Not mine, far too many nasty battles of Quebec to allow that
Just like I'm sure there are a few ex-Nords fans around still that can't stand Chris Nilan.
One of the advantages/disadvantages of being born in non-NHL countries. Teams and rivalries don´t matter as much....
One of the advantages/disadvantages of being born in non-NHL countries. Teams and rivalries don´t matter as much....
Too bad, the Habs/Nords rivalry was one of the most intense and brutal I have seen in my 40 years.
It might of been relatively short on the grand scale but man did they make up for it.
It wasn't just the teams going at it, the fans and the media themselves would go at it hardcore.
There are still reporters that used to cover the Nords that now cover the Habs that won't even spit in the direction of some reporters that covered the Habs back then. They still hate each other.
Believe me, if Quebec gets a team again...look out!
You'll see what I'm talking about real quick.
It's an old wound just under the surface, that's never healed, just waiting to bust wide open again.
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-09-2012 at 11:34 PM.
Too bad, the Habs/Nords rivalry was one of the most intense and brutal I have seen in my 40 years.
It might of been relatively short on the grand scale but man did they make up for it.
It wasn't just the teams going at it, the fans and the media themselves would go at it hardcore.
There are still reporters that used to cover the Nords that now cover the Habs that won't even spit in the direction of some reporters that covered the Habs back then. They still hate each other.
Believe me, if Quebec gets a team again...look out!
You'll see what I'm talking about real quick.
I believe you, would you perhaps say that the dirty tricks im assuming were employed during these games helped fan the rivalry?
I believe you, would you perhaps say that the dirty tricks im assuming were employed during these games helped fan the rivalry?
Honestly, it was a fine line whether it was the teams driving the rivalry, the media or the fans.
All three fueled the other two.
But yeah, it was dirty and brutal.
Good Friday Game 6, 28 years ago...
Honestly, it was a fine line whether it was the teams driving the rivalry, the media or the fans.
All three fueled the other two.
But yeah, it was dirty and brutal.
Good Friday Game 6, 28 years ago...
I watched that game on NHL Vault the other day, my mind was blown when I realised that Chris Chelios was out there playing on a d-pairing with Larry Robinson.
No thoughts on the importance of villains/ dirty antics in the NHL?
"villains" make the game interesting to watch. I personally enjoy watching those types of players play, always have. The NHL needs players you love, hate, and that you love to hate. But there is a difference between being a villain and crossing that line on occasion, and being a cheap shot artist. But if everyone followed the rules and didn't play with any grit, meanness, or hate, it would be very boring to watch.
"villains" make the game interesting to watch. I personally enjoy watching those types of players play, always have. The NHL needs players you love, hate, and that you love to hate. But there is a difference between being a villain and crossing that line on occasion, and being a cheap shot artist. But if everyone followed the rules and didn't play with any grit, meanness, or hate, it would be very boring to watch.
On villains: Well, i think there´s more to the whole villain-role. Im sure someone somewhere( an Avs fan maybe?) considers a guy like Claude Lemieux more of a renegade style hero than a villain, and im sure a lot of people everywhere( Red Wings fans and Kris Draper/Dino Ciccarelli?) consider him the Devil incarnate. What im saying is i think it´s down to perspective more than the actual incidents themselves. Avery screening Brodeur was one of the more hilarious things i´ve seen in years and things like that increases the allure of watching hockey. Compared to the relatively clean SEL( swedish top league) the NHL wins out by a longshot, not only due to the quality of hockey but more so due to the wide range of characters in the NHL. I think we agree
On villains: Well, i think there´s more to the whole villain-role. Im sure someone somewhere( an Avs fan maybe?) considers a guy like Claude Lemieux more of a renegade style hero than a villain, and im sure a lot of people everywhere( Red Wings fans and Kris Draper/Dino Ciccarelli?) consider him the Devil incarnate. What im saying is i think it´s down to perspective more than the actual incidents themselves. Avery screening Brodeur was one of the more hilarious things i´ve seen in years and things like that increases the allure of watching hockey. Compared to the relatively clean SEL( swedish top league) the NHL wins out by a longshot, not only due to the quality of hockey but more so due to the wide range of characters in the NHL. I think we agree
What your saying is true. But in my opinion, Villains now a days are very few and very different from where they were years ago. A guy like Claude was more of a huge thug/pests, but he was also a guy that could score the game winning goal on you. Like you said, there are different characters of "villains". Take Chris Pronger. An Elite D-man who likes to cross the line and play dirty every now and then. He isn't fun to play against and he can out play you while getting in your head. This, IMO, is a true Villain of the game. More than a pests or thug, but someone who can play the game and at the same time be sinister, much like Bobby Clarke, Esa Tikkanen, Eddie Shore, Darius Kasparaitis, ect.
There are the Villains that have no respect and are just straight up thugs in so many ways, much like Avery. Then there are the guys that bend the rules and play on that edge, and bugs the hell out of their opponents, much like the players i listed.
What your saying is true. But in my opinion, Villains now a days are very few and very different from where they were years ago. A guy like Claude was more of a huge thug/pests, but he was also a guy that could score the game winning goal on you. Like you said, there are different characters of "villains". Take Chris Pronger. An Elite D-man who likes to cross the line and play dirty every now and then. He isn't fun to play against and he can out play you while getting in your head. This, IMO, is a true Villain of the game. More than a pests or thug, but someone who can play the game and at the same time be sinister, much like Bobby Clarke, Esa Tikkanen, Eddie Shore, Darius Kasparaitis, ect.
There are the Villains that have no respect and are just straight up thugs in so many ways, much like Avery. Then there are the guys that bend the rules and play on that edge, and bugs the hell out of their opponents, much like the players i listed.
I agree there are less villains now than the 80s/90s( only periods i´m old enough to remember) and for me the NHL today is a less interesting place than during those times, altough that might also be nostalgia.
I think there´s room and perhaps even need for guys like Avery, say what you will but NHL players aren´t exactly the touchy feely overly sensitive group of people, the same goes for a lot of hockey fans i would think. And for a single person to piss off such enormous amounts of people, i would consider that a skill If i were to draft someone for my team and had a choice between Avery and let´s say Eric Nystrom( similar point production pace) i would easily pick Avery, what he does is, imho, a contributing factor to winning hockey games. If you cant score, check, if you cant check, play D, if you cant play D, piss the other team off so that they lose their focus( didn´t Avery score two goals on Brodeur right after the famous screening incident?). It´s a skillset in my book.
Steve Ott for example, he´s been cheered for a big part of the season and altough he produces at a slightly higher rate and isn´t as dirty as Avery, he´s basically the same type of player. And another aspect of it is that a lot of the guys who are major A-holes on the ice seem like pretty cool guys of it. Averys comment´s about gay marriage for example. Pronger is one of the best interviewees in the NHL today etc
I agree there are less villains now than the 80s/90s( only periods i´m old enough to remember) and for me the NHL today is a less interesting place than during those times, altough that might also be nostalgia.
I think there´s room and perhaps even need for guys like Avery, say what you will but NHL players aren´t exactly the touchy feely overly sensitive group of people, the same goes for a lot of hockey fans i would think. And for a single person to piss off such enormous amounts of people, i would consider that a skill If i were to draft someone for my team and had a choice between Avery and let´s say Eric Nystrom( similar point production pace) i would easily pick Avery, what he does is, imho, a contributing factor to winning hockey games. If you cant score, check, if you cant check, play D, if you cant play D, piss the other team off so that they lose their focus( didn´t Avery score two goals on Brodeur right after the famous screening incident?). It´s a skillset in my book.
Steve Ott for example, he´s been cheered for a big part of the season and altough he produces at a slightly higher rate and isn´t as dirty as Avery, he´s basically the same type of player. And another aspect of it is that a lot of the guys who are major A-holes on the ice seem like pretty cool guys of it. Averys comment´s about gay marriage for example. Pronger is one of the best interviewees in the NHL today etc
I feel we don't necessarily need players like Ott and Avery, but sadly some fans find their antics entertaining. I personally don't, but that is just me. I also don't really consider them Villains, but huge pests with their own roles on their respected teams.
Hunter on Turgeon is up there on anyone's list for sure. You cough the puck up, the player scores and out of anger you follow him like a pitbull and deck him from behind. Classless. In 2004 at an OHL game when Hunter was coaching the London Knights I reminded him of that incident. It has stuck with him.
I always thought Marchment was a filthy player who never really got "his". What he did to Nieuwendyk in the 1998 playoffs was bad. He just literally rammed his knee into the boards and ended his season. It looked premeditated and to be honest he easily could have let up and not made it look so obvious.
Obviously Bertuzzi on Moore. So many things went wrong in that game that you can even point to the coaches for but Bertuzzi took the coward's route.
While I may be in the minority on this one, the McSorley/Brashear incident isn't one I consider to be as bas as many think. For starters, to this day there is quietly a nod that goes to McSorley from everyone that played against Brashear. To be honest, Brashear was not a guy very well respected in the NHL. Not even among most fighters. During that game he and Marty got in a scrap and Brashear beat him and then dusted his hands as he was going to the penalty box. Never, ever, ever, do that. But he did and hockey players have long memories. Pat Burns did have McSorley out there for a reason don't kid yourself. The Bruins were a terrible team then and they lost to a failure of a team that night as well. There was only one thing that could give them a little bit of dignity and that was Marty fighting Brashear again.
Watch the tape, McSorley doesn't try to take his head off. He hits his shoulder and it glances off and hits his helmet and down goes Brashear. The intent to decapitate him wasn't there. Bertuzzi meant to clock Moore from behind. Hunter meant to blindside Turgeon but McSorley did not mean to hit Brashear in the head. Add to the fact that Marty was always a respected player in his time and I think it is a case that gets overblown.
Matt Johnson nailing Beukeboom from behind in the head was dirty. Johnson was 6'5" and if he wanted to fight he shouldn't have punched him from behind. Man up and face him.
Another overblown one I think is Simon against Hollweg. Yes Simon used his stick in a very vicious way. But Hollweg ran him from behind 5 seconds earlier. If the ref calls what probably should have been a penalty 95% of the time then Simon doesn't exact revenge with his stick. Just saying.
Phil, I agree with you on the McSorely/Brashear deal, I don't really want to go into it since I don't think it needs to be debated but it was clearly an accident. Hitting Brashear in the head was as much McSorely's intention as it was Keith Ballard's when he nearly murdered Vokoun.
Another one I'll throw out since I don't think it's been mentioned was Dave Brown throwing one of the nastiest, dirtiest crosschecks you'll ever see to the mouth and face of Tomas Sandstrom.
In fact, there's probably a bunch of incidents we can add in regards to people doing horrible things to Sandstrom.
Another one I'll throw out since I don't think it's been mentioned was Dave Brown throwing one of the nastiest, dirtiest crosschecks you'll ever see to the mouth and face of Tomas Sandstrom.
In fact, there's probably a bunch of incidents we can add in regards to people doing horrible things to Sandstrom.
As far as i can remember Sandström had a couple of dirty tricks up his sleeve aswell, so maybe he "deserved" it?
Speaking of hurting guys named Thomas, how about Thomas Holmström, seems like the guy is constantly manhandled by guys a lot bigger than him, but can anyone remember any particular nasty trick pulled on him?
As far as i can remember Sandström had a couple of dirty tricks up his sleeve aswell, so maybe he "deserved" it?
Shhhh..........not too loud. Yeah Dave Brown probably got a lot of private high fives for that in the same way McSorley probably did. Goes to show you what happened to pests before the instigator rule though in Sandstrom's case. Be thankful for that rule Maxim Lapierre
Quote:
Speaking of hurting guys named Thomas, how about Thomas Holmström, seems like the guy is constantly manhandled by guys a lot bigger than him, but can anyone remember any particular nasty trick pulled on him?
The attempt at a vasectomy from Belfour was against Maltby I believe in 1998 where he speared him from underneath. I can't think of one where Holmstrom was the recipient. Like Dino for example he took a lot of bruises for his line of work, but nothing that pops your eyeballs.
