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Old
04-11-2012, 08:27 PM
  #26
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04-11-2012, 08:28 PM
  #27
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Don't write like a rookie user


How exactly should a rookie user write? Just because I bring up good points, write coherently, and know hockey means that I'm some troll account? No, I am not a troll account. HFboards is not the end-all and be-all where all hockey knowledge starts, and individuals often join these types of forums after browsing for a while.

Only in the Leaf forum is somebody supporting their team a troll.

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04-11-2012, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post


How exactly should a rookie user write? Just because I bring up good points, write coherently, and know hockey means that I'm some troll account? No, I am not a troll account. HFboards is not the end-all and be-all where all hockey knowledge starts, and individuals often join these types of forums after browsing for a while.

Only in the Leaf forum is somebody supporting their team a troll.
Sorry ain't buying it.

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04-11-2012, 08:29 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
That would be great if there were two players worth 7.5 million dollars in any UFA year, and they were the only team able to sign them.

Only problem is that there is up to one such player in any given year, and there are about 20-25 teams willing and able to sign them.
The point still being we managed to spend way more than many teams and we are worse. Even in a cap world we have the advantage over many teams which are better than us. Even without the two extra superstars they have space for.

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04-11-2012, 08:29 PM
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In the real world those 4 management teams would be fired by their board of directors.
Guess what, we are living in the real world! Well, I guess I can't speak for you, but the rest of us are. And they aren't fired!

You didn't answer my question.

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04-11-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Guess what, we are living in the real world! Well, I guess I can't speak for you, but the rest of us are. And they aren't fired!

You didn't answer my question.
Brad Richards

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:33 PM
  #32
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The point still being we managed to spend way more than many teams and we are worse. Even in a cap world we have the advantage over many teams which are better than us. Even without the two extra superstars they have space for.
Because their method of building a team remained constant from the pre-lockout to post-lockout eras, and they had prepared themselves for such a change, even if they didn't know it was coming.

Toronto did the opposite, and now we are in the process of building our team up, where it is expected that we do worse in the current than teams in the high point of their development.

People whine and moan about "L.A.C.K", which make up our "financial advantage" over other teams. Well, that's what UFA and spending more money gets you, not the Crosbys, Malkins, etc. of the world.

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04-11-2012, 08:35 PM
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Problem with the Leafs is that they were so void of prospects when Burke got here it takes 5 years of drafting, then another 5 years for those players to develop.

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Old
04-11-2012, 08:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Erdinger View Post
Brad Richards
That wasn't a financial situation. Joe Nieuwendyk was willing to offer a contract, he just couldn't offer long-term because they didn't have an owner at the time. There is a difference between not willing to spend the money and not having an owner.

Regardless, given Richard's stance on the issue, it is likely that Richards would have gone to UFA anyway, since he wanted to go to New York to be with his Stanley Cup winning coach.

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04-11-2012, 08:43 PM
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Problem with the Leafs is that they were so void of prospects when Burke got here it takes 5 years of drafting, then another 5 years for those players to develop.
It may be true, so lets not be trading them a few years after getting them, or trading the picks. That is what makes it frustrating.

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04-11-2012, 08:47 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
That wasn't a financial situation. Joe Nieuwendyk was willing to offer a contract, he just couldn't offer long-term because they didn't have an owner at the time. There is a difference between not willing to spend the money and not having an owner.

Regardless, given Richard's stance on the issue, it is likely that Richards would have gone to UFA anyway, since he wanted to go to New York to be with his Stanley Cup winning coach.
You seem to be an intelligent poster. How do you propose that the Leafs get out of the mess they are in? Granted Burke when he came here started with a bad hand but he's made a mess of it. Sure the Leafs have prospects now in the system. So does every other team. Very few teams not named the Flames are in worse shape and this is after almost 4 years of his guidance.

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04-11-2012, 09:18 PM
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You seem to be an intelligent poster. How do you propose that the Leafs get out of the mess they are in? Granted Burke when he came here started with a bad hand but he's made a mess of it. Sure the Leafs have prospects now in the system. So does every other team. Very few teams not named the Flames are in worse shape and this is after almost 4 years of his guidance.
Well I don't personally think Burke has made a mess of things. I think he has made mistakes, as all GMs do, though for a lot of them I can see where the logic originated to make those moves. I think he was too optimistic in thinking that this team could be anything more than a playoff contender at this point of his tenure, but I can understand why he may have thought that before he got a chance to really evaluate the team. I think that this team should be higher in the standings than 26th at this point, but I believe that this team is better than the finish we obtained.

People are quick to think this team is what we saw in the last 1/3 of the season, while ignoring the first 2/3 of the season, which was probably the best 2/3 of any season we have had since the lockout. This is classic "what have you done for me lately" syndrome, and shows the pessimistic view of this board.

People say that Burke has put our rebuild behind, but these people are expecting way too much out of a rebuild. Burke has been here for three drafts. People shouldn't be expecting more than a Gardiner or Kessel from a top-5 pick, or more than a Kadri out of a 5-10 pick. This is also ignoring the multiple other pieces he has brought in for essentially no assets, who are young enough to improve and be players on the team when it does become competitive.

People act as if "L.A.C.K" cost us anything. It is not like these guys were signed over budding superstars. They were signed with empty cap space to fill out the roster. The same people who want us to lose are the people complaining that we are losing because of them. People forget that Lombardi got us a young defenceman in Franson, and Beauchemin, another FA signing that people disliked, got us a PPG winger and a blue-chip defensive prospect.

Yes, every other team has prospects. That's not the point. Every team will always have prospects, regardless of what we do. The difference is that while some teams have prospects to replace an aging core, we have prospects in addition to a young core. And despite what people think, players will improve, and more importantly, gain confidence, experience and chemistry playing with one-another. That is the benefit to a young team. And our prospects are better than many on here like to believe. People on this board have an eternal "grass is always greener" syndrome. They want to trade for prospects without realizing that they have accomplished no more than our very own prospects.

As for what we need to do, we need to keep course. We need to draft with our 1st round pick this year, and explore realistic trade options, since there isn't much in the UFA market. If we end up doing little, that's fine. Going for the quick fix is what got us into this mess years ago. We need to be patient.

It's easy to say "Burke hasn't got us a #1 center, a #1 goalie, tough players, etc.". What people don't realize is that to get those players, we have to pay a high price. If we want young players, they are often unproven and we end up paying for potential that may never be realized. If we get veterans, we are sacrificing our future for the present again.

There is no point getting a Lucic-type player to improve toughness by trading 3 tough prospects that could be a Lucic-type player when we actually need one.


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Old
04-11-2012, 09:36 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Well I don't personally think Burke has made a mess of things. I think he has made mistakes, as all GMs do, though for a lot of them I can see where the logic originated to make those moves. I think he was too optimistic in thinking that this team could be anything more than a playoff contender at this point of his tenure, but I can understand why he may have thought that before he got a chance to really evaluate the team. I think that this team should be higher in the standings than 26th at this point, but I believe that this team is better than the finish we obtained.

People are quick to think this team is what we saw in the last 1/3 of the season, while ignoring the first 2/3 of the season, which was probably the best 2/3 of any season we have had since the lockout. This is classic "what have you done for me lately" syndrome, and shows the pessimistic view of this board.

People say that Burke has put our rebuild behind, but these people are expecting way too much out of a rebuild. Burke has been here for three drafts. People shouldn't be expecting more than a Gardiner or Kessel from a top-5 pick, or more than a Kadri out of a 5-10 pick. This is also ignoring the multiple other pieces he has brought in for essentially no assets, who are young enough to improve and be players on the team when it does become competitive.

People act as if "L.A.C.K" cost us anything. It is not like these guys were signed over budding superstars. They were signed with empty cap space to fill out the roster. The same people who want us to lose are the people complaining that we are losing because of them. People forget that Lombardi got us a young defenceman in Franson, and Beauchemin, another FA signing that people disliked, got us a PPG winger and a blue-chip defensive prospect.

Yes, every other team has prospects. That's not the point. Every team will always have prospects, regardless of what we do. The difference is that while some teams have prospects to replace an aging core, we have prospects in addition to a young core. And despite what people think, players will improve, and more importantly, gain confidence, experience and chemistry playing with one-another. That is the benefit to a young team. And our prospects are better than many on here like to believe. People on this board have an eternal "grass is always greener" syndrome. They want to trade for prospects without realizing that they have accomplished no more than our very own prospects.

As for what we need to do, we need to keep course. We need to draft with our 1st round pick this year, and explore realistic trade options, since there isn't much in the UFA market. If we end up doing little, that's fine. Going for the quick fix is what got us into this mess years ago. We need to be patient.

It's easy to say "Burke hasn't got us a #1 center, a #1 goalie, tough players, etc.". What people don't realize is that to get those players, we have to pay a high price.
If we want young players, they are often unproven and they may not work out. If we get veterans, we are sacrificing our future for the present again.

There is no point getting a Lucic-type player to improve toughness by trading 3 tough prospects that could be a Lucic-type player when we actually need one.
While I pretty well agree with all your other points it's Burke as usual who is his own worst enemy. The bolded part is what he promises and yet as you point out is almost impossible for him to deliver with what he has to deal to another GM.

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04-11-2012, 09:56 PM
  #39
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While I pretty well agree with all your other points it's Burke as usual who is his own worst enemy. The bolded part is what he promises and yet as you point out is almost impossible for him to deliver with what he has to deal to another GM.
Well, I can somewhat agree that Burke sometimes makes things worse for himself in the media, but I have come to realize that people will always find something to nitpick at, regardless of what he says. Our fans have vilified GMs in the past who refuse to give information and their views on the team. Yet when Burke merely answers questions from the media, people label him a so-called "media-loving blowhard". Then between the trade deadline and the end of the season, when there isn't much to talk about, Burke stayed out of the spotlight and people complained about that. He is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

You have identified one of the problems yourself. People take what he says as promises, when they are no such thing. He never promised the playoffs. He never promised team toughness, a #1 center, a #1 goalie, etc. He stated his goal was the playoffs, and that he would try and obtain the pieces he is missing. He realizes the missing and weak pieces, which is a good sign, and he will do everything in his power to improve those areas, but sometimes doing that is outside of his power. Without sacrificing the future at least, which is something he has shown he will not do.

I feel like people look too much at what Burke says (which I can admit is at times over the top - though people have to realize that this is a business and a product he is selling) and over-analyze it, without looking at what Burke does.

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04-11-2012, 10:49 PM
  #40
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Life makes sense again.

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04-12-2012, 02:14 AM
  #41
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This really is the worst time to be a leafs fan ever though. I know missing the playoffs now and missing the playoffs in the 80s are two totally different things, but at least the 80s teams got to show up for the dance. I'm 22 years old and the last leaf playoff game took place when I was in grade school.

All this apology stuff everyone in the organization has been doing is fine, and I really don't know if it means anything, but they have been getting one thing right: We are the best fans in the world and we definitely deserve better.

There is exactly one team in the NHL that would sell out every game in the 7th straight non-playoff season in which it finished 25th out of 30 teams. There is only one team that would still sell out every game and that's the Leafs.

We give so much money, time, and loyalty to this team and it rarely ever gives anything in return.

I am not saying fire guys or make desperate moves, because I personally like what Burke has done, but in reality this is a results oriented business and sooner or later Burke is going to have to put up or shut up.

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04-12-2012, 09:42 AM
  #42
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Richest team in the world????? People keep saying that criticizing the team but what does that even mean.


We can hire an excessively large scouting department?? True, we can and have. Though how would that help us in the short time since the scouting department has been revamped??? They have brought us Kadri's, Gardiner's, Ashton's, Ross, Biggs, McKegg which are all great players but have very little to do with the past 7 years.

We can spend to the cap? Very true and we do! We spent almost $5M on Connolly to rent his services for 2 years while we try to find a suitable fit for the 1C. We can take on a player liek Lombardi at $3.5M to obtain a player like Franson. We can also risk a player like Lupul for $4.25. So the Maple Leafs did spend to the cap but gambled almost $13M of it for a short term center and to obtain Franson and Gardiner. The gamble payed off big time bringing in Lupul, Franson adn Gardiner but we are also stuck with Connolly and Lombo. Those deals weren't made to win a little now! They were made to build the team to win alot later. So while we do spend to the cap there is a wasted $8M used to obtain players to make us better later.

We can use the wealth to lure big time FA's? How many have there been lately in the FA market and how many do you 100% know we could have bought?? Players are being locked up before hitting the market and no matter how much wealth we have there is nothing you can do about it.


I woudl love to know from people just what exactly having so much wealth enables the Leafs to do to be competitive now?????

They have done quite a bit to use it to better the team going forward but am uncertain as to what exactly they could have done now?

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Old
04-12-2012, 09:53 AM
  #43
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While I pretty well agree with all your other points it's Burke as usual who is his own worst enemy. The bolded part is what he promises and yet as you point out is almost impossible for him to deliver with what he has to deal to another GM.
Unless I missed it, when did he promise that or many of the other things he's accused of? Burke can't be faulted for selective hearing.

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04-12-2012, 10:04 AM
  #44
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No other ****ing team in the ****ing league has missed the playoffs as long as we have.
DON'T COMPARE OUR DISGRACE OF A TEAM TO OTHER GENERATIONS, COMPARE US TO OTHER TEAMS CURRENTLY IN THE LEAGUE!!!! FUUUUCCCKKKKKK
And once you do that, you'll see that ALL OF THEM HAVE MADE THE PLAYOFFS BEFORE WE DID!
FUUUUCCCCKKKK!!!!!


That fact ALONE should be embarrassing enough.

But then let's add the fact that we're the richest team in the entire league, with the most expensive GM in all of the league's history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then let's add to the fact that we can spend up to $15 million extra per year on our players than a fair proportion of the league.

Then let's add to the fact that we have the most expensive scouting department in the league.

Then let's add to the fact that our divisional rival had two of our last first round picks, that were both in the top 10 overall, one second overall.

Then let's add to the fact that we still have no elite prospscts, even after finishing 2nd last overall, and 9th last overall.

When you add up all of that together, it becomes flat out embarrassing that some delusional leafs fans still try clinging to the positives... no matter how illogical.

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04-12-2012, 10:07 AM
  #45
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I still can't believe how little/nothing we got for Sundin, McCabe and the boys... That really hurt us moving forward.

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04-12-2012, 10:09 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
No other ****ing team in the ****ing league has missed the playoffs as long as we have.
DON'T COMPARE OUR DISGRACE OF A TEAM TO OTHER GENERATIONS, COMPARE US TO OTHER TEAMS CURRENTLY IN THE LEAGUE!!!! FUUUUCCCKKKKKK
And once you do that, you'll see that ALL OF THEM HAVE MADE THE PLAYOFFS BEFORE WE DID!
FUUUUCCCCKKKK!!!!!


That fact ALONE should be embarrassing enough.

But then let's add the fact that we're the richest team in the entire league, with the most expensive GM in all of the league's history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then let's add to the fact that we can spend up to $15 million extra per year on our players than a fair proportion of the league.

Then let's add to the fact that we have the most expensive scouting department in the league.

Then let's add to the fact that our divisional rival had two of our last first round picks, that were both in the top 10 overall, one second overall.

Then let's add to the fact that we still have no elite prospscts, even after finishing 2nd last overall, and 9th last overall.

When you add up all of that together, it becomes flat out embarrassing that some delusional leafs fans still try clinging to the positives... no matter how illogical.
Username fits haha. Just wondering where these statistics are coming from?

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04-12-2012, 10:10 AM
  #47
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For those who seem to feel that the Leafs playoff drought of 7 years makes this the worst period in their history, they need to consider that post-lockout 53% (16/30) of teams make the playoff while in the 80s 81% (16/21) of teams made the playoffs.

Also let's look at the number of games in which the Leafs got points in each of these eras. For the 80s, this is Wins + Ties, for the post-lockout era, it is Wins + Overtime Losses.

Season W T Total
1979-80 35 5 40
1980-81 28 15 43
1981-82 20 16 36
1982-83 28 12 40
1983-84 26 9 35
1984-85 20 8 28
1985-86 25 7 32
1986-87 32 6 38
1987-88 21 10 31
1988-89 28 6 34
1989-90 38 4 42
1990-91 23 11 34
1991-92 30 7 38

Season W T Total
2005-06 41 8 49 (47)
2006-07 40 11 51 (49)
2007-08 36 11 47 (45)
2009-10 30 14 44 (42)
2010-11 37 11 48 (46)
2011-12 35 10 45 (43)

The number in parantheses for the post-lockout years is simply the Total reduced by two because the season was now 82 games instead of 80. So, even with assuming that both of the extra games in the post-lockout seasons were ones in which the Leafs got points, you can see that only two of the post-lockout years were as bad as any of the years from 1979-80 through 1991-92.
There is nothing deceiving about the longest playoff drought in club history. Nothing.

No other management team has missed the playoffs as much as this group. This is historically bad.

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04-12-2012, 10:15 AM
  #48
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No math is going to make this playoff drought more bearable. It just sucks.

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04-12-2012, 10:15 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
No other ****ing team in the ****ing league has missed the playoffs as long as we have.
DON'T COMPARE OUR DISGRACE OF A TEAM TO OTHER GENERATIONS, COMPARE US TO OTHER TEAMS CURRENTLY IN THE LEAGUE!!!! FUUUUCCCKKKKKK
And once you do that, you'll see that ALL OF THEM HAVE MADE THE PLAYOFFS BEFORE WE DID!
FUUUUCCCCKKKK!!!!!


That fact ALONE should be embarrassing enough.

But then let's add the fact that we're the richest team in the entire league, with the most expensive GM in all of the league's history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then let's add to the fact that we can spend up to $15 million extra per year on our players than a fair proportion of the league.

Then let's add to the fact that we have the most expensive scouting department in the league.

Then let's add to the fact that our divisional rival had two of our last first round picks, that were both in the top 10 overall, one second overall.

Then let's add to the fact that we still have no elite prospscts, even after finishing 2nd last overall, and 9th last overall.

When you add up all of that together, it becomes flat out embarrassing that some delusional leafs fans still try clinging to the positives... no matter how illogical.
Your embarassing!! Your the only delusional one clinging to some hope things are going to change! I'm a realist knowing there not and could not be happier about that!!

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04-12-2012, 10:16 AM
  #50
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Username fits haha. Just wondering where these statistics are coming from?
Which fact exactly are you disputing? Because they're all just common knowledge to hockey fans.

Seriously, what on earth did I say that wasn't merely common knowledge amongst all hockey fans?

The fact that the leafs are the richest team in the league?
The leafs have the the highest paid GM in league history?
The leafs can spend to the ceiling, which is $15 million higher than the basement?
The leafs spend more on their scouting department than any other team?
The leafs have no blue chip prospects, even after finishing 7th last, 2nd last, 9th last, and 5th last since Burke arrived?

What a ****ing embarrassment this team is.
And the fact that psychotic members of the fanbase defend them is unacceptable. Flat out unacceptable.

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