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Thought on Toronto Prospects VS Montreal Fans??

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12-01-2004, 06:31 PM
  #1
Habs4ever
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Thought on Toronto Prospects VS Montreal Fans??

This year around draft time toronto was in big time trouble, you can sence that in their forum but all of a sudden fans from that forum think they got the very good bunch of prospecs how can that be??

I know mood change over time for how you rate some prospect, but leafs fan have gone from total disarray over their lack of prospect to total optimism how can that be.

In the time span they haven't even drafted any top tier prospect yet they seem to think they are doing much better, while in montreal forum with so many blue chippers you can sence the uneasyness and some concern over how prospects are doing, is it just mood swing or is there really some really meat to back this up??

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12-01-2004, 06:35 PM
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Please delete this.

Please.

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12-01-2004, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever
In the time span they haven't even drafted any top tier prospect yet they seem to think they are doing much better, while in montreal forum with so many blue chippers you can sence the uneasyness and some concern over how prospects are doing, is it just mood swing or is there really some really meat to back this up??
I think there's meat. Somewhere in one of the endless prospect debates on the Habs board I backed that up. I won't repeat it. But I think the Leafs did a very good job with their late round picks (better than the Habs). Meanwhile Hainsey and Hossa are giving Habs fans good reasons to be nervous. The Perezhogin suspension and a dreadful start for Kostitsyn and Higgins in terms of production this year might tend to make us nervous too, though with no real reason to be.

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12-01-2004, 06:41 PM
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Why the hell delete this??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
Please delete this.

Please.

are you offended by simple question?? if you have nothing to say then don't comment!!

I'm just trying to understand if mood swing has anything to do with how prospects are rated, as this is prospect board and habs and leafs have quiet a few fans I don't see how this thread is not legitemate for this forum!!

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12-01-2004, 06:42 PM
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I know what your talking about, just look at the Kyle Wellwood thread lol.

IMO Montreal is the team that should be excited. Kastitsyn has huuuge upside and there is no reason to jump off his boat so early, he's only 19 and this is his first year in North America...and not just the CHL or anything, he's playing in the AHL vs great players. As much as I hate him personally, he's a damn good player, i'm talking about Perezhogin. Then you have a good one in Higgins, one of the more underated goaltender prospects in Danis. Tomas Plekanec is one of my favorite prospects in the AHL. It's hard not to be impressed with what the Habs are building, and IMO they had a great pick in Kyle Chipchura midway threw the 1st round.

Steen and Stajan were excellent picks in a bad draft for Toronto in 2002 ( I mean they did well, even though there was a bad class to work with) . Todd Ford sure was a bust IMO. But other then that i'm not really impressed with what they do. They blew a great oppertunity in 2003 to get a top prospect, instead they completely miss IMO Doherty who can't even hack it in the NCAA. Robbie Earl was one of the better picks in the 2004 draft. How he fell so far is beyond me. But overall the Leafs don't have a lot to be exited about. Dimitri Vorobiev is a very solid player. I have no clue how good Pogge is, but it seems they walked out of the 2004 class very good.

I think Toronto fans have something to be excited about. For the first time in quite awhile things are looking up. They are starting to actually make some good picks at the draft table.

Montreal > Toronto

But I must say that Toronto did a very good job in 2004.

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12-01-2004, 07:02 PM
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Besides Hainsey, there's nothing really to worry about... Also, Yann Danis looks like a solid goaltender, and we didn't had one in the system. Also, I've been really impressed with Heino-Lindberg at the camp, he should be our AHL starter in one or two years, when Danis will graduate. I know that Higgins and Kostitsyn aren't putting up good numbers, but the intagibles are there, there's no real reason to worry. The bulldogs are having huge problems. They don't have veterans like many AHL teams got, it it hurts them. Also, there's Jarvis not helping them too much imo. So the team as a whole isn't doing great, it's not a reason to think that Higgins and Kostitsyn aren't going to be good at the next level. When I've seen Chipchura this summer, I was impressed. This guy has some really good hands. Now, he broke out in the WHL, putting up some major points with a below-average team. IMO, there's a lot of positive. Also, about Perezhogin, the guy was looking very dangerous at the end of the season last year in the AHL and in the playoffs. Unfortunately, the incident didn't helped him. He's got a solid season start in the RSL, I think he has the second higher point per game ratio of his team, if you leave Jagr out, since he played only a few games. There's a lot of positive things... Hossa started the season strongly but he started to struggle once again. It's a little bit concerning, but I think he'll make a good second line LW down the road. I've seen some flashes of brillance when he played with Saku two years ago. His wrist shot is amazing, especially the way he release his shot. It's an incredible asset to have a such shot. Also, I think he's got many things like Ryder. A quick and accurate wrist shot, a good vision, nice hands, good size... Ryder took a few years to develop into the player he is today and Hossa has one problem and that's constancy. When it's going to get better, watch out because he could be a very nice player.

As for the leafs prospects, well I really think that they've been underrated. Especially Colaiacovo and Steen. IMO Colaiacovo will be a good second pairing dmen while Steen will be a 60 point two-way center. Earl, Stajan, Tellqvist could also turn into very nice nhlers. Stajan is already a good nhler, anyways! IMO they have 3 forwards (Steen, Stajan, Earl), a dmen (Colaiacovo) and a goalie (Tellqvist) that will be a part of their team for the years to come. They're not skilled at only one thing, they'll be solid all-arround nhlers. (By the way I really don't like Wellwood)

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12-01-2004, 10:29 PM
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If I may chime in here for a second...

Leafs fans do have a reason to be excited. It's always a good thing when your lesser knows start improving their stock. Wellwood in particular has been very impressive. The jury's still out on him, but I'm sure he's gone up in most people's estimations.

If you're a Habs fan, there is reason for concern but it's far from a "doom and gloom" situation. I don't think it's fair right now to judge the success (or lack thereof) of the prospects on the Bulldogs. It's hard to evaluate players on a struggling team. I know they've been having trouble scoring and from the few games I've watched this season, particularly the two against the baby Leafs, it looked to me like the players are just not clicking at all with each other. There's too many of them just trying to do it all themselves and not using their teammates properly. The team looks completely dissoriented. Frankly, it looks to me more like a coaching problem than a problem with the individual players. I'm not saying Jarvis is a bad coach, but they are in need of a few solid practices to get their team play in gear and to "get back to basics."

If prospects are judged on the success of their farm team, than could I go ahead and say the Canucks prospects are better than both the Leafs and the Habs? (kidding on that obviously....)

I imagine some of the concern is also the result of unreasonable expectations. I've been lurking on the Habs board for awhile and I recall some of you already pencilling Kostitsyn in on your second line in the NHL. He's extremely talented but he's also very raw. Be patient. I don't think he'll dissapoint.

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12-01-2004, 10:37 PM
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Habs prospects greater than Leafs at this point but the gap has been closed by the Leaf prospect.

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12-01-2004, 11:26 PM
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The Leafs system is extremely underrated.

We've been saying this for a while, and the 2004 draft just made us stronger. There isn't any "superstar" potentials in the system like Montreal has with Kostitsyn, but Toronto has a lot more "safe prospects" than the Habs do. You take away one of Montreal's notable forward prospects like Plekanec and Toronto's group can easily be considered as good as/better because of the superior depth on defense and the number of safe prospects.

Where as Montreal has 4 very risky/project prospects in their top 10 (according to HF.com) with Kostitsyn, Urquhart, Hainsey, and Hossa... while Toronto's top 10 only consists of maybe 2 "risky prospects" with Doherty and Wellwood. And Kyle's outplayed all of Montreal's prospects thus far in their professional careers.

Goaltending is a draw (if you consider 25 year old Tellqvist), defense clearly goes to Toronto since Montreal's depth is basically non existent... and the forward group goes to Montreal based on "potential" rather than probability.

The fact that one team's ranked 29 and the other is at 5 is a joke.

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12-01-2004, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever
This year around draft time toronto was in big time trouble, you can sence that in their forum but all of a sudden fans from that forum think they got the very good bunch of prospecs how can that be??

I know mood change over time for how you rate some prospect, but leafs fan have gone from total disarray over their lack of prospect to total optimism how can that be.

In the time span they haven't even drafted any top tier prospect yet they seem to think they are doing much better, while in montreal forum with so many blue chippers you can sence the uneasyness and some concern over how prospects are doing, is it just mood swing or is there really some really meat to back this up??
While I don't really like the wording ...the question is fine ..

I think a lot has to do with perception .. According to HF the leafs are the 29th ranked team and the Habs near the Top .. So when the Leafs prospects start showing some talent the only direction the team as a whole can go up .. Players like Wellwood & Carlo & Williams even are playing well and raising awareness due to long threads sometimes .. Few people question that Steen likely is a player and with Robbie Earl playing so well in the NCAA ... the team direction is UP ..

The habs prospects have struggled and their really isn't even one with possibly Danis and Plekanec that are on pace ..the overall team going down is there ... When you are drafted high like Ron Hainsey and you struggle that makes a much bigger impact than a mid round pick like the Leaf players that are performing above expectations .. The talent is certainly there with the Kostitsyn and Higgins types and putting them on a TOP 50 list (which they belong) but having them struggle offensively also draws more attention to the organization as a whole .. Hossa once considered a Star is also fading and following Hainsey's path more then that of the Top players ..

So while the Habs organization is considerable ahead of the Leafs currently at least in perception and High draft picks give that perception that only the future will tell what happens to either franchise .. but the prospect straved leafs certainly need to cling to any little success they can from their picks ..IMO

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12-02-2004, 12:47 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever
are you offended by simple question?? if you have nothing to say then don't comment!!

I'm just trying to understand if mood swing has anything to do with how prospects are rated, as this is prospect board and habs and leafs have quiet a few fans I don't see how this thread is not legitemate for this forum!!
Yes, it offends me

1. If you want to ask Leaf fans a question do it on their board 2. Any Habs vs Leafs thread it totally useless and pointless.


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12-02-2004, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
2. Any Habs or Leafs thread it totally useless and pointless.
Fixed it for you.

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12-02-2004, 08:09 AM
  #13
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Toronto prospects vs. Montreal fans? I'll take the prospects thanks.

Honestly a lot of people make a big deal about the Leafs having the 29th ranked organization here at HF. But it wasn't that long ago that we had the 16th ranked organization. And I'm pretty confident saying that our prospect pool is better now than it was then.

It seems like as our group of prospects have got better, our rating has got worse. Go figure.

If you've noticed optimism around the Leafs board, it's probably because our prospects in St. John's are doing quite well at the moment. And many are either meeting or surpassing expectations of them. If they stink it up the rest of the year, you'll quickly see that mood change no doubt. That's just how it works.

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12-02-2004, 08:27 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Toronto prospects vs. Montreal fans? I'll take the prospects thanks.
At what, though? I'm told the Habs fans own the HF arcade. Wanna put the Toronto prospects up against Saku K. and the boys in the arcade?

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12-02-2004, 08:49 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
At what, though? I'm told the Habs fans own the HF arcade. Wanna put the Toronto prospects up against Saku K. and the boys in the arcade?
Hey, hey hold on. I heard Carlo Colaiacovo plays a mean game of Tetris.

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12-02-2004, 09:33 AM
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I think the reason is very simple: Hamilton can't score and are loosing while playing boring, defense-first hockey. St-Johns is winning and scoring a lot of goals.

That makes all the fans that only look at stats to evaluate a player think that the Leafs' prospects are better. However, AHL stats mean nothing in how a players' game translates to the NHL. By thoses standards, Kings fans probably think they have a upcoming dynasty on their hands, which is not the case at all, trust me.

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12-02-2004, 09:49 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
The Leafs system is extremely underrated.

We've been saying this for a while, and the 2004 draft just made us stronger.
And the 2004 draft made the Habs system that much stronger than it already was. Landing Chipchura, Yemelin, and Grabovsky is nothing to sneeze at. No matter what you think, that's still a better overall draft than the Pogge, Earl, and Kukumberg selections for Toronto.

Yes, Toronto is deeper this year than it was last year. But it still doesn't change the fact that they are still one of the worst in terms of overall talent and depth.

Quote:
There isn't any "superstar" potentials in the system like Montreal has with Kostitsyn, but Toronto has a lot more "safe prospects" than the Habs do. You take away one of Montreal's notable forward prospects like Plekanec and Toronto's group can easily be considered as good as/better because of the superior depth on defense and the number of safe prospects.
Who are these safe prospects you speak of? Besides Stajan (who is not really a prospect since he is already in the NHL), all Leaf prospects have serious question marks and that includes guys like Steen. Steen has yet to come over to NA and when he does, if he can come close to the season Perezhogin had last year in the AHL, then he we might be able to say he is 'safe'.

Cola has injury troubles. Wellwood is not even as good as Boyes and you have written Boyes off. The rest are just minor league depth.

Quote:
Where as Montreal has 4 very risky/project prospects in their top 10 (according to HF.com) with Kostitsyn, Urquhart, Hainsey, and Hossa... while Toronto's top 10 only consists of maybe 2 "risky prospects" with Doherty and Wellwood.
Maybe its because the depth is that much greater on Montreal's side. Having a bunch a 'safe' prospects means you are dealing with a bunch of average players at the NHL level. Thats nothing to get excited about. Meanwhile, Montreal has the depth in talent which will allow them to make trades to help the big club. If Toronto trades one more notable prospect for help at the NHL level, they are done. See the difference?

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And Kyle's outplayed all of Montreal's prospects thus far in their professional careers.
And Boyes has outplayed Kyle, yet that didn't stop him from being traded for Curtis Brown. whats your point ?

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Goaltending is a draw (if you consider 25 year old Tellqvist), defense clearly goes to Toronto since Montreal's depth is basically non existent...
Agree there. Although at this point, Cola is the only safe D prospect. The rest are suspects , just like Hainsey, Bell, and the rest.

Quote:
and the forward group goes to Montreal based on "potential" rather than probability.
And the probability remains that Montreal will produce better forwards at the NHL level than Toronto. Even if half of those Blue chip / high end / high risk prospects in the Habs system don't work out, that still gives them three or four more than Toronto (from the current crop). And by "working out", I mean top six status at the NHL level, while Toronto's "working out" means 3rd and 4th liners.

Quote:
The fact that one team's ranked 29 and the other is at 5 is a joke.
You're just jealous. Your blue and white glasses can't see past reality. Your obsession with the Habs prospects is quite amusing actually. It's a wonder why you hang out on the Habs board so much. You actually envy montreal's system, but have a VERY hard time admitting to it.


Last edited by AH: 12-02-2004 at 10:09 AM.
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12-02-2004, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz
I think the reason is very simple: Hamilton can't score and are loosing while playing boring, defense-first hockey. St-Johns is winning and scoring a lot of goals.

That makes all the fans that only look at stats to evaluate a player think that the Leafs' prospects are better. However, AHL stats mean nothing in how a players' game translates to the NHL. By thoses standards, Kings fans probably think they have a upcoming dynasty on their hands, which is not the case at all, trust me.
I highly disagree. I don't know if you were one of the lucky ones who watched the recent St. Johns vs Hamilton games or not, it's not the fault of the Montreal prospects playing a boring defensive game that is making them lose at all, it's the fact that their defensive game has not been very strong at all, and they seem unable to play as a team. St. Johns clearly has a huge underdog type of play going for them right now, in the sense that I don't believe people expected them to play so well, and St. Johns is far exceeding everyones expectations. Toronto's defensive game has been there as well, has it not?

As for stats being meaningless, yes, they are to a point...but it is ridiculous to consistently reject statistics on the basis that it's not the NHL. Wellwood scoring the points he has should at least get him the recognition of being a very good late pick for the Leafs, however some posters refused to be willing to say that in the Wellwood/Higgins discussions.

To answer the original question, I believe Toronto fans have a right to be happy about how the season is going with their prospects. Montreal certainly has reason to be not so happy so far this season with theirs, whether that translates to meaning anything significant, I do not know. Maybe it just represents that the Leafs fans #29 prospect pool is actually doing a little better than our experts could guess, and we're happy about that. Same goes for the Habs #5, maybe they're just dissapointed.

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12-02-2004, 10:02 AM
  #19
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I think it comes down to the simply fact that Toronto fans are generally more optimistic than Montreal fans.

Montreal fans get optimistic (sometimes TOO optimistic), but when a prospect hits any sort of bump in the road, the bandwagon sometimes can get pretty empty.

I also believe it has alot to do with the fact that over the past number of years hab fans have been looking at their propect pool to improve the club, while leaf fans tend to look at the free agent market.

Just my 2 cents.

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12-02-2004, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
Who are these safe prospects you speak of? Besides Stajan (who is not really a prospect since he is already in the NHL), all Leaf prospects have serious question marks and that includes guys like Steen. Steen has yet to come over to NA and when he does, if he can come close to the season Perezhogin had last year in the AHL, then he we might be able to say he is 'safe'.
Stajan is a prospect, just not by HF.com's criteria. Look up the word PROSPECT in the dictionary. Guys like Steen, Colaiacovo, Harrison, Mitchell, Vorobyev, and Bell are very "safe" prospects. Steen and Colaiacovo are one of the top tandom of prospects in the league, and they will both play in the NHL down the road. Harrison's upside is not great, maybe a #3/4/5 defenseman, but he'll play in the NHL at some point. Mitchell has all the tools to be a good 3rd liner, he's 19 years old and he's up at 6'2, 200 pounds... he's one of the best two-way forwards in the OHL. Vorobyev has the physical size and strength to play in the NHL at age 19... at the time of the draft people like Kyle Woodlief were saying he'll definitely play in the NHL down the road, but possibly not as a top 4 defenseman, but he's developing nicely and is on pace to score some nice numbers at the highest level of hockey in Russia.

Quote:
Wellwood is not even as good as Boyes and you have written Boyes off. The rest are just minor league depth.
Kyle Wellwood is arguably a better player than Boyes. Both are average skaters at best, but with Wellwood's recent improvement defensively and physically, it can be said that he is better than Boyes.

Quote:
Maybe its because the depth is that much greater on Montreal's side. Having a bunch a 'safe' prospects means you are dealing with a bunch of average players at the NHL level. Thats nothing to get excited about. Meanwhile, Montreal has the depth in talent which will allow them to make trades to help the big club. If Toronto trades one more notable prospect for help at the NHL level, they are done. See the difference?
Notice how most of Montreal's "HIGH POTENTIAL" prospects have done so far over the years? Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa, Alex Buturlin, Jason Ward, Eric Chouinard... ? As well as high potential projects from other organizations... you'll often see that guys like Hossa and Hainsey won't make it while one or two no name prospects in the same organization rise up and develop into NHL'ers.

Quote:
And Boyes has outplayed Kyle, yet that didn't stop him from being traded for Curtis Brown. whats your point ?
He's outplayed him? Last time I checked a younger Kyle Wellwood was outscoring Brad Boyes in the AHL.

Quote:
Agree there. Although at this point, Cola is the only safe D prospect. The rest are suspects , just like Hainsey, Bell, and the rest.
You can't group anyone on the Leafs system with Hainsey... Ian White, Brendan Bell, etc... are outplaying Hainsey in the AHL and they're 2-3 years younger than him. Ron Hainsey is a horrendous hockey player, the fact that he's still on Montreal's top 10 is sad.

Quote:
And the probability remains that Montreal will produce better forwards at the NHL level than Toronto. Even if half of those Blue chip / high end / high risk prospects in the Habs system don't work out, that still gives them three or four more than Toronto (from the current crop). And by "working out", I mean top six status at the NHL level, while Toronto's "working out" means 3rd and 4th liners.
We'll have to wait and see.

Quote:
You're just jealous. Your blue and white glasses can't see past reality. Your obsession with the Habs prospects is quite amusing actually. It's a wonder why you hang out on the Habs board so much. You actually envy montreal's system, but have a VERY hard time admitting to it.
Jealous? I think not.

I spend time on the Habs forum because there are actually some smart and knowledgable Hab fans around and it's enjoyable conversing with them.

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12-02-2004, 10:33 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Stajan is a prospect, just not by HF.com's criteria. Look up the word PROSPECT in the dictionary. Guys like Steen, Colaiacovo, Harrison, Mitchell, Vorobyev, and Bell are very "safe" prospects. Steen and Colaiacovo are one of the top tandom of prospects in the league, and they will both play in the NHL down the road. Harrison's upside is not great, maybe a #3/4/5 defenseman, but he'll play in the NHL at some point. Mitchell has all the tools to be a good 3rd liner, he's 19 years old and he's up at 6'2, 200 pounds... he's one of the best two-way forwards in the OHL. Vorobyev has the physical size and strength to play in the NHL at age 19... at the time of the draft people like Kyle Woodlief were saying he'll definitely play in the NHL down the road, but possibly not as a top 4 defenseman, but he's developing nicely and is on pace to score some nice numbers at the highest level of hockey in Russia.
I'll agree on Steen and Cocacola, but stating the rest as 'safe' propects is a major stretch.

I would love to hear a non-leafs fan call Harrison or Mitchell or Vorobyev or Bell a 'safe' prospect.

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12-02-2004, 10:41 AM
  #22
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Again, i'm not going to participate in a Habs vs. Leafs bashing thread, I will say though, that it's quite obvious that the Habs have a better prospect pool than the Leafs, that's nothing to be ashamed about as a Leafs fan, they've been a good team for the last several years and have traded alot of their 1st picks in search of that Cup...

I must admit that i've been quite impressed with some of the Leafs prospects though, Wellwood has opened some eyes, but I remain pessimistic towards him just as I did Boyes, Matt Stajan is going to be a very good player sooner rather than later IMO, don't know much about Steen but from what I know he should be solid as well, Coliacovo (sp?) I don't like at all, I really don't see what the big deal is with him, I think he'll be an NHL player but not near the type of player alot of Leaf fans make him out to be...the rest of the defence has as much question marks as the Habs d-men prospects, and your goaltending, I think is absolutely atrocious, Tellquvist IMO, is a horrible goalie and will never make it, no offense, that's just my opinion and I offer it as respectfully as possible...

Ask any Leaf fan, and if they're being honest, they would trade their prospects vs. the Habs one anyday of the week, but I will give the Leafs credit as they've gotten some potentially very good players out of very weak drafts for them...

As for how the Baby Leafs prospects are doing vs. the Habs prospects, I say it doesn't matter...the bulldogs have the former AHL mvp in Jason Ward with them, he's also struggling this year, just because you put up a few points in the AHL dosen't always translate into NHL success, but at least for the Leafs, it's a step in the right direction, and can't you blame them for being so happy about Wellwood and company? there's not alot to look forward to (at least IMO) in the future for the Leafs...

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12-02-2004, 10:45 AM
  #23
neg marron
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robbie earl leafs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever
This year around draft time toronto was in big time trouble, you can sence that in their forum but all of a sudden fans from that forum think they got the very good bunch of prospecs how can that be??

I know mood change over time for how you rate some prospect, but leafs fan have gone from total disarray over their lack of prospect to total optimism how can that

be.

as a habs fans you gotta love this kids talent level plays like chris drury and willing to scrap too look for some great games vs. my habs when he makes the leafs

In the time span they haven't even drafted any top tier prospect yet they seem to think they are doing much better, while in montreal forum with so many blue chippers you can sence the uneasyness and some concern over how prospects are doing, is it just mood swing or is there really some really meat to back this up??

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12-02-2004, 10:53 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever
This year around draft time toronto was in big time trouble, you can sence that in their forum but all of a sudden fans from that forum think they got the very good bunch of prospecs how can that be??

I know mood change over time for how you rate some prospect, but leafs fan have gone from total disarray over their lack of prospect to total optimism how can that be.

In the time span they haven't even drafted any top tier prospect yet they seem to think they are doing much better, while in montreal forum with so many blue chippers you can sence the uneasyness and some concern over how prospects are doing, is it just mood swing or is there really some really meat to back this up??
The meat is in seeing prospects like Wellwood, Colaiacovo, Tellqvist and Bell improve over last season and seeing guys like Williams and White play well when even Leaf fans weren't giving them much thought before this year.

It has little to do with the 2004 draft other than Robbie Earl stepping up his game.

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Old
12-02-2004, 10:58 AM
  #25
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Of all people to doubt Wellwood habs fans should be the last. Seeing that Ribeiro player really well last year for them while having many of the same problems.

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