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Thought on Toronto Prospects VS Montreal Fans??

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Old
12-02-2004, 11:02 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
Again, i'm not going to participate in a Habs vs. Leafs bashing thread, I will say though, that it's quite obvious that the Habs have a better prospect pool than the Leafs, that's nothing to be ashamed about as a Leafs fan, they've been a good team for the last several years and have traded alot of their 1st picks in search of that Cup...

I must admit that i've been quite impressed with some of the Leafs prospects though, Wellwood has opened some eyes, but I remain pessimistic towards him just as I did Boyes, Matt Stajan is going to be a very good player sooner rather than later IMO, don't know much about Steen but from what I know he should be solid as well, Coliacovo (sp?) I don't like at all, I really don't see what the big deal is with him, I think he'll be an NHL player but not near the type of player alot of Leaf fans make him out to be...the rest of the defence has as much question marks as the Habs d-men prospects, and your goaltending, I think is absolutely atrocious, Tellquvist IMO, is a horrible goalie and will never make it, no offense, that's just my opinion and I offer it as respectfully as possible...

Ask any Leaf fan, and if they're being honest, they would trade their prospects vs. the Habs one anyday of the week, but I will give the Leafs credit as they've gotten some potentially very good players out of very weak drafts for them...

As for how the Baby Leafs prospects are doing vs. the Habs prospects, I say it doesn't matter...the bulldogs have the former AHL mvp in Jason Ward with them, he's also struggling this year, just because you put up a few points in the AHL dosen't always translate into NHL success, but at least for the Leafs, it's a step in the right direction, and can't you blame them for being so happy about Wellwood and company? there's not alot to look forward to (at least IMO) in the future for the Leafs...

I think Leafs prospect are better than what they get credit for. While the Habs have some great prospect most of them are boom or bust prospect, which is question mark down the road. If they reach their potential Habs than have a way greater system than the Leafs, but compared to the Leafs who have more of safer prospects than the Habs. Montreal does have some top prospects in Kyle Chipchura, Andrei Kostsitsyn, Chris Higgins, Alex Perezhogin and Tomas Plekanec. Montreal's top 5 are better than Leafs top 5 of Carlo Colaiacovo, Alexander Steen, Brendon Bell, Jay Harrison, and Kyle Wellwood. After the top 5 Leafs have better prospects than the Habs. Like I said there is more risk involved with the Habs prospect than with the Leafs leafs have some safer picks but at this point Montreal Prospects are better than Leafs but the gap has been closed from before. Leafs have been improving lately and have been putting great effort and support with developing players. They have been very serious with propect development this year than they have ever before. They are on a rise, I expect them to be getting better.

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12-02-2004, 11:11 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuppY
I think Leafs prospect are better than what they get credit for. While the Habs have some great prospect most of them are boom or bust prospect, which is question mark down the road. If they reach their potential Habs than have a way greater system than the Leafs, but compared to the Leafs who have more of safer prospects than the Habs. Montreal does have some top prospects in Kyle Chipchura, Andrei Kostsitsyn, Chris Higgins, Alex Perezhogin and Tomas Plekanec. Montreal's top 5 are better than Leafs top 5 of Carlo Colaiacovo, Alexander Steen, Brendon Bell, Jay Harrison, and Kyle Wellwood. After the top 5 Leafs have better prospects than the Habs. Like I said there is more risk involved with the Habs prospect than with the Leafs leafs have some safer picks but at this point Montreal Prospects are better than Leafs but the gap has been closed from before. Leafs have been improving lately and have been putting great effort and support with developing players. They have been very serious with propect development this year than they have ever before. They are on a rise, I expect them to be getting better.
Good post...I disagree however that most of Montreals prospects are boom or bust...

Kostitsyn, Hainsey and Hossa are boom or bust IMO

Higgins, Plekanec, Chipchura, Lapierre, O'Byrne are a few prospects who don't have that same boom or bust label IMO...

I think you hear too much about the Habs more high profile prospects than you do the lesser ones, but there's a few good prospects there as well

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12-02-2004, 11:14 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
Good post...I disagree however that most of Montreals prospects are boom or bust...

Kostitsyn, Hainsey and Hossa are boom or bust IMO

Higgins, Plekanec, Chipchura, Lapierre, O'Byrne are a few prospects who don't have that same boom or bust label IMO...

I think you hear too much about the Habs more high profile prospects than you do the lesser ones, but there's a few good prospects there as well
Urquhart and Locke are also boom-or-bust prospects.

That's quite a few B-or-B prospects to have.

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12-02-2004, 11:23 AM
  #29
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Most "safe" prospects become marginal players in the NHL (if they make it at all!). I'd much rather have a bunch of boom or busts that stand a chance of making an impact in the big leagues.

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12-02-2004, 11:24 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Urquhart and Locke are also boom-or-bust prospects.

That's quite a few B-or-B prospects to have.
Not you again (joking)

I realize that but the expectations for those players aren't as great as the others I wrote down, that's why I didn't include them...

either way, i'd rather have a bunch of Corey Locke's, Duncan Milroy's, Cory Urquhart, Alexei Yemelin, J.T. Wyman's and Mikhail Grabovski then...

Martin Sagat's, John Mitchell, John Doherty, Jeremy Williams, Tyson Marsh, J-F Racine, and Markus Seikola...

But that's just because i'm a Habs fan, and I follow and know more about those players then the Leafs one's...

The difference IMO, is that some of the Habs players are more proven at the junior level then some of the Leafs one, again, junior accomplishements dont mean much IMO, but at least it's a form of superiority

Again, I don't want to get into a war with Leafs fans, but I think it's pretty well common knowledge that the Habs prospects have ( I won't say better cause we won't know this for a few years) more potential to succeed and be at least servicable players at the NHL level, you can come up with as much excuses as "yeah there better but they have more boom or bust type prospects" the still remains though


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12-02-2004, 12:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Fozz
Most "safe" prospects become marginal players in the NHL (if they make it at all!). I'd much rather have a bunch of boom or busts that stand a chance of making an impact in the big leagues.
Wasn't that my exact point in the Wellwood verses Higgins thread ???

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12-02-2004, 12:17 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Wasn't that my exact point in the Wellwood verses Higgins thread ???
Maybe so. But Higgins is no slouch offensively either. Not only is Higgins a safe prospect, he has very good offensive upside.

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12-02-2004, 12:24 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Urquhart and Locke are also boom-or-bust prospects.

That's quite a few B-or-B prospects to have.
I don't even count Locke as a prospect. He was picked up as AHL filler, sort of a place holder while better prospects come in and get developed. If he works out, good, if not, no harm done.

Like someone else said, I would much rather have 10 B-or-B prospects than 5 safe prospects. The advantage of the 10 B-or-B prospects becoming 3 good NHLers is a lot greater than 5 'safe' prospects becoming 5 below average NHLers.

The 'safe' prospects that Montreal is lacking can always be made up with signings off the NHL free agent scrap heep. Not a big deal at all.

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12-02-2004, 12:29 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by AH
Maybe so. But Higgins is no slouch offensively either. Not only is Higgins a safe prospect, he has very good offensive upside.
If his skill set does not translate to the next level offensively he will fall exactly into the 3rd line checking role type player considered "SAFE" to make it .. I think his 3 goals and offensive struggles this season has raised a few more questions than last year, you like to see a young players progress moving forward or upwards in his development path .. and people are now keeping a closer eye on his progress as a result of his current play. No doubt he has skills, what he does with them and how they develop is the question still unanswered on the table presently.

While Wellwood will either make it or not and if he makes it in order to succeed and stay in the NHL he WILL need to rely heavily on his offensive talents .. and thus is not considered a safe player but more Boom or Bust which the post I responded to was stressing and in fact you agree with and prefer.

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12-02-2004, 12:46 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
If his skill set does not translate to the next level offensively he will fall exactly into the 3rd line checking role type player considered "SAFE" to make it .. I think his 3 goals and offensive struggles this season has raised a few more questions than last year, you like to see a young players progress moving forward or upwards in his development path .. and people are now keeping a closer eye on his progress as a result of his current play. No doubt he has skills, what he does with them and how they develop is the question still unanswered on the table presently.

While Wellwood will either make it or not and if he makes it in order to succeed and stay in the NHL he WILL need to rely heavily on his offensive talents .. and thus is not considered a safe player but more Boom or Bust which the post I responded to was stressing and in fact you agree with and prefer.
Not to make this into another Higgins / Wellwood thread, but Higgins struggles have more to do with the team, than him specifically. On top of that, Higgins last year also got off to a low start. He has plenty of time to catch up.

Then again, as far as B-or-B prospects go, it depends on what kind of b-or-b prospect you're dealing with. Not one of the Montreal B-or-B prospects has that many holes in their game (defense, size, speed) as Wellwood does (he seems to have the market cornered on donut holes LOL). The only one that is similar is Locke, and like I said above, I don't really consider Locke a prospect for the NHL. Wellwood is more of a oomph-or-bust prospect. Calling him a boom-or-bust prospect is a stretch.

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12-02-2004, 01:14 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by AH
Not to make this into another Higgins / Wellwood thread, but Higgins struggles have more to do with the team, than him specifically. On top of that, Higgins last year also got off to a low start. He has plenty of time to catch up.

Then again, as far as B-or-B prospects go, it depends on what kind of b-or-b prospect you're dealing with. Not one of the Montreal B-or-B prospects has that many holes in their game (defense, size, speed) as Wellwood does (he seems to have the market cornered on donut holes LOL). The only one that is similar is Locke, and like I said above, I don't really consider Locke a prospect for the NHL. Wellwood is more of a oomph-or-bust prospect. Calling him a boom-or-bust prospect is a stretch.
No offense but that isn't a post based on any facts just unsupported opinion IMO ..

Higgins scored 20 goals last season and will really have to pick up the pace to reach 20 again this year .. Now you want people to believe that 20 goals in the AHL equates to more in the NHL fine.. but that is never really reality .. usually as you move up and the talent and skill of the opposing players against you increase your offensive production declines not increases logically..

Due you know many NHL top 6 players that struggled to get 20 goals in the AHL in their 2nd season ??

and sure its easy to blame the team but good players rise above that .. Rick Nash plays on a weaker team in the NHL and raised his game and production above the teams .. Just because the team is losing doesn't mean that Higgins can't bury his scoring chances or make the most of his shots on net. What is going to change all of a sudden that the results will be drastically different?? What if he does not break out of this slump and struggles all year, then what ?? You have no proof that situation is not just as likely as your he will catch up .. Last year it made sense as well .. He was a rookie in the AHL and there is an adjustment period, and once that has been reached and overcome often you see a players numbers increase as you suggested happened..

Also as you are aware ...NHL teams are looking for consistency in a players abilities .. Do they want to see him going through long slumps followed by a few good bursts that make his numbers look better or would they prefer he consistently contributes to help his team win ...

If you watched the 2 recent games on TV .. You may have noticed that while Higgins got a few scoring chances including a 2 on 0 with Plekanac and never even got a shot, and other times he wasn't very creative offensively IMO as his shots even on partial breakaways hit the goalie square in the logo as easy saves .. Those are early warning signs that the offensive ability is not really there or the confidence is lacking one or the other..

Based on his current play Montreal certainly will be patient with him, but I am sure some doubts are creeping in based on his performance, and since he is considered a top prospect that is more concerning to management then if Locke struggles..because the expectations are higher ..IMO


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12-02-2004, 01:20 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
Not to make this into another Higgins / Wellwood thread, but Higgins struggles have more to do with the team, than him specifically. On top of that, Higgins last year also got off to a low start. He has plenty of time to catch up.

Then again, as far as B-or-B prospects go, it depends on what kind of b-or-b prospect you're dealing with. Not one of the Montreal B-or-B prospects has that many holes in their game (defense, size, speed) as Wellwood does (he seems to have the market cornered on donut holes LOL). The only one that is similar is Locke, and like I said above, I don't really consider Locke a prospect for the NHL. Wellwood is more of a oomph-or-bust prospect. Calling him a boom-or-bust prospect is a stretch.
Well, it's officially become another Wellwood thread...lol

I think you're really underestimating Wellwood's game. He's gotten far better at both ends than he has been in the past, and like everyone who has watched his games whenever they get a chance has said, he's actually using his body occasionally, while still making defenders on nearly every team look down right STUPID. If Wellwood's game does make it to the NHL level I'd expect that most of the Habs fans would want the team moved out of the NorthEast division so they don't have to face him on a consistent basis. He's just recently started working heavily on his conditioning, and IF he manages to get into the shape the team is trying to get him into (which, as we can see from his work ethic on the ice will almost definitely happen) then he'll be a very intimidating player, especially since he's already got the skills, and skating/speed tend to be conditioning issues.

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12-02-2004, 01:25 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BuppY
Habs prospects greater than Leafs at this point but the gap has been closed by the Leaf prospect.

Yes, because Habs are always drafting higher than the Leafs because the Leafs are outperforming them,. That is the root of the problem. The Habs fans are trying to grasp at any advantage they may have over Toronto. Give the Leafs 4 playoff misses in 5 years and they might end up with a better prospect list than the Habs. Of course, I wold rather not be the league's doormat and have a terrible prospect list.

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12-02-2004, 01:32 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by MacDaddy Version 1.3
Yes, because Habs are always drafting higher than the Leafs because the Leafs are outperforming them,. That is the root of the problem. The Habs fans are trying to grasp at any advantage they may have over Toronto. Give the Leafs 4 playoff misses in 5 years and they might end up with a better prospect list than the Habs. Of course, I wold rather not be the league's doormat and have a terrible prospect list.
lol, we've all been waiting for the first assault on the pride of the oppositions team...

Clearly if the Leafs had of been drafting from the 5-15 position, as opposed to the 20-30 position the outcomes of the draft would have been much better on our roster/prospect pool.We wouldn't have traded away those 2 first rounders. We'd likely have one of the big defencemen drafted in recent years, and we'd be doing EXACTLY what the other rebuidling treams are, talking aboutt he future "oh, just give him time, he's going to be a superstar...just wait until we draft Crosby, you won't be laughing then...". Now, to be fair, the Leafs have been nothing short of a cash cow for management over the last few years. We should have just bought Pittsburghs first rounder off of them once they didn't get Ovechkin.

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12-02-2004, 01:42 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
Wasn't that my exact point in the Wellwood verses Higgins thread ???
I don't know. Didin't read it all since I got bored real quick with that thread.

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12-02-2004, 01:58 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MacDaddy Version 1.3
Yes, because Habs are always drafting higher than the Leafs because the Leafs are outperforming them,. That is the root of the problem. The Habs fans are trying to grasp at any advantage they may have over Toronto. Give the Leafs 4 playoff misses in 5 years and they might end up with a better prospect list than the Habs. Of course, I wold rather not be the league's doormat and have a terrible prospect list.
Not really. Toronto was actually a league doormat for most of 30+ years from 1967 to 1998 and montreal was drafting in the later range of every round. Even during that time, the Habs produced a lot more impact NHLers than the Leafs (a LOT more).

Even when the Leafs were the league's doormat, they were pretty crappy at player development. And now that they are a better NHL team, they are still pretty bad at player development. What gives ?

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12-02-2004, 02:01 PM
  #42
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The Leafs of the 70s had some very good teams. The Leafs of 1992-96 were also decent. During the 70s They employed one scout during the Ballard era: Johnny Bower. Johnny Bower had a budget that could get him to all OHL games, except Sault Ste Marie. Johnny Bower's glasses couldn't be described as coke bottle lenses, you could actually pour a can of coke into one of his lenses. It is not a valid comparison because the Leafs during the Ballard era were run like the Home Hardware team in your local men's league. Nice try at a comeback though, kid.

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12-02-2004, 02:42 PM
  #43
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WOW, you pin the blame on Ballard. What an original excuse. Never heard that one before. And we had Houle, Molson, and Ron Corey trying to ruin it for us which led to the recent five year dry spell. When you get down to it, everyone can have a legit excuse.

You said that the only way to get great prospects is to finish low and get high draft picks. I proved to you that this is not the case at all. Leaving the Leafs aside, most of the other doormats in the league as well didn't produce as much as the Habs did. Whats their excuse? They were run by Ballard's evil cousin?

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12-02-2004, 02:58 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by AH
Not really. Toronto was actually a league doormat for most of 30+ years from 1967 to 1998 and montreal was drafting in the later range of every round. Even during that time, the Habs produced a lot more impact NHLers than the Leafs (a LOT more).
Napier 10th overall, Chartraw 10, Tremblay 12, Houle 1, Lafleur 1, Robinson 20, Shutt 4, Gainey 8, Risebrough 7, Mondou 15, Engblom 22.

The Canadiens were hardly making do with low draft picks over those years.

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12-02-2004, 03:01 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by AH
WOW, you pin the blame on Ballard. What an original excuse. Never heard that one before. And we had Houle, Molson, and Ron Corey trying to ruin it for us which led to the recent five year dry spell. When you get down to it, everyone can have a legit excuse.

You said that the only way to get great prospects is to finish low and get high draft picks. I proved to you that this is not the case at all. Leaving the Leafs aside, most of the other doormats in the league as well didn't produce as much as the Habs did. Whats their excuse? They were run by Ballard's evil cousin?
What are you basing all your comments on anyways not facts ..

Here refresh yourselves with leaf Draft picks ... there have been many successful players Darryl Sittler, Lanny MacDonad, Ian Turnbull, Dave Tiger Williams, Mike Palmateer, Wendel Clark, Vinny Damphouse Etc etc etc over the years

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000038.html

and the point of this thread is current prospect anyways and it just logically goes with out saying that since the Habs have selected before Toronto for many if not all the past 5-8 years that they should have better prospects as a result .. inlight of leafs go for it now, trading of top picks and prospects ..

This is just common sense .. but the PERCEPTION is that even though they are picking higher .. They may not be pickinhg wiser ...

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12-02-2004, 03:05 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Napier 10th overall, Chartraw 10, Tremblay 12, Houle 1, Lafleur 1, Robinson 20, Shutt 4, Gainey 8, Risebrough 7, Mondou 15, Engblom 22.

The Canadiens were hardly making do with low draft picks over those years.
The league wan't made up of 30 teams back then. As well, the European invasion was still years away. You were definitely not dealing with the same depth as you are now at each and every draft.

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12-02-2004, 03:09 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
and the point of this thread is current prospect anyways and it just logically goes with out saying that since the Habs have selected before Toronto for many if not all the past 5-8 years that they should have better prospects as a result
You guys (Leaf fans) more than any group of fans on these boards continually complain about higher draft picks getting more benefit of the doubt than lower draft picks, despite "performance" (see Wellwood vs Higgins). Yet, you state that draft position is important in determining who the "better' prospect is ...

hmmmmm ....

Again, what gives ?

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12-02-2004, 03:16 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by AH
The league wan't made up of 30 teams back then. As well, the European invasion was still years away. You were definitely not dealing with the same depth as you are now at each and every draft.
Then you have to take into account the Canadiens having rights to the Quebec born players that were also parts of those teams before the entry draft as we know it happened. It wasn't as if they were at some disadvantage as far as obtaining very good players, an advantage if anything.

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12-02-2004, 03:19 PM
  #49
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plz DON'T LET ME JUMP IN THIS TOPIC.SO CLOSE THIS !!!!!!

I WILL PUSH THIS RIVALRY TOO FAR.I already almost been banned 2 times because of this kind of topic.

LEafs fans remember the thread Kovy vs Alexander Mogilny !

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12-02-2004, 03:21 PM
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LEafs fans remember the thread Kovy vs Alexander Mogilny !
Mogilny OWNS Kovalev

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