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Thought on Toronto Prospects VS Montreal Fans??

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Old
12-02-2004, 03:35 PM
  #51
AH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Then you have to take into account the Canadiens having rights to the Quebec born players that were also parts of those teams before the entry draft as we know it happened. It wasn't as if they were at some disadvantage as far as obtaining very good players, an advantage if anything.
Yeah and they only exercised that right only once, that was in 1968 when they took Houle and some other stiff. Hardly a factor in anything.

Prior to the draft, as far as territorial rights go, every team had that advantage.

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12-02-2004, 03:42 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Then you have to take into account the Canadiens having rights to the Quebec born players that were also parts of those teams before the entry draft as we know it happened. It wasn't as if they were at some disadvantage as far as obtaining very good players, an advantage if anything.
Who knows what ??

Here's a pretty good post from Minos writen some months ago about this...

" I'm so tired of people say this - and I don't mean for it to sound like a personal attack on you - but it's absolutely not true. The Canadiens didn't get to select the 1st two Quebec born players at each draft - because at the time, there wasn't a draft! Teams did their own scouting and signed prospects to what were called "C Forms" (confirmation forms). In 1936 because of the Great Depression the Canadiens were nearly bankrupt - the league had already lost a few teams, including the original Ottawa Senators to bankruptcy. The league developed a rule refered to as the French Canadian Rule, which would allow the Canadiens to sign any 2 players born in Qubec who hadn't already been signed to C forms. The league thought that having more French players in Montreal could help them fight off bankruptcy. They made other rules to help out other franchises during the same time for the same reason (fight off bankruptcy during the Great Depression).

The fact that the Canadiens were able to sign 2 players who hadn't been signed to C forms had almost no effect on the history of the Canadiens. It would be like the modern equivalent of allowing the Canadiens to draft 2 French players after the entry draft had taken place....as if the league had a 9 round draft, but the Canadiens had a 11 round draft and in the 10th and 11th rounds they had to draft French players.

From 1936 to 1943 the Canadiens protected 14 players under the French Canadian rule. NOT ONE of them ever played a SINGLE MINUTE in the NHL. From 19944-46 no players were signed (WWII). In 1947 the Canadiens abandoned the rule, and instead began to sponsor minor league teams - buying teams in various minor leagues and stocking those team with players they had signed to C forms (this was the very first farm system in NHL history). This is how Montreal truely built up its dynastys....they owned serveral teams and tought all the players to play in a similar style and system - a 3rd liner from one team could play on the 3rd line of another team and fit right in because all of their teams played in the same system. This allowed Montreal to develope players MUCH quicker than any other team, players grew up playing with each other, and were able to seamlessly play with other players in Montreal's system so when they arrived in the NHL they knew exactly how the whole team played - just by knowing on what lined they played on. It was 3 full years before any other NHL team caught on and followed Montreal's example but by then it was too late - they were playing catch up to the Canadiens.

In 1963, the league began the first ever entry Draft and the French Canadien rule was also brought back (in the same way, Montreal could draft any two French players not drafted). The draft was ONLY for player's who hadn't signed a C form (most top players were scouted and signed to C forms....thats how the Bruins got Bobby Orrr, he wasn't drafted). So in a draft for all the rejects that no one had already signed, the Canadiens got 2 extra French players. From 1963-1968 again, not one player ever played a SINGLE MINUTE in the NHL. 1969 was the first year that the Canadiens drafted a French rule player who played in the NHL - Michel Plasse. The Canadiens drafted him, then loaned him to the expansion St. Louis Blues...the first ever player drafted under the French Canadian rule who actually made it to the NHL didn't even play for Montreal, it was the Blues who benefited!!!

In 1969 the league cancelled NHL sponsorships of minor league teams, ended the signing of players to C forms and instituted the Universal Amateur Draft (same as the modern day entry draft). The Canadiens were allowed to protect 2 final players before the UAD took place, and the protected Rejean Houle and Marc Tardif.

So from 1936 to 1969 only 3 players drafted under the French Canadian rule ever played in the NHL - and one of those 3 played for St. Louis. All the great French Canadians who played for Montreal over the years were all either signed to C forms (a process that every team in the league had an equal chance to sign a player) or came from Montreal's invention of a farm system (that was Frank Selke's idea....thanks for firing him Maple Leafs!).

As for the players you mentioned, the Canadiens were able to get Beliveau by buying the entire league he played in and they drafted Guy Lafleur with a pick that Sam Pollack got in a deal with the California Golden Seals (thanks Sam Pollock!) "

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12-02-2004, 03:44 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
Yeah and they only exercised that right only once, that was in 1968 when they took Houle and some other stiff. Hardly a factor in anything.

Prior to the draft, as far as territorial rights go, every team had that advantage.
All I know is that with the exception of a few Quebec juniors that played in Ontario the best ones ended up in the Canadiens' system in those years. Prospects from Ontario were shared among the other five teams, the west wasn't really a contibutor at the time.

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12-02-2004, 04:00 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Leafaholix

He's outplayed him? Last time I checked a younger Kyle Wellwood was outscoring Brad Boyes in the AHL.
Meh, Boyes is on a team where there is basically three scoring forwards (Bergeron, Hilbert, Boyes) and a hot goaltender. Providence is a low scoring team.

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12-02-2004, 04:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Mogilny OWNS Kovalev
Of course.

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Old
12-02-2004, 05:28 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
You guys (Leaf fans) more than any group of fans on these boards continually complain about higher draft picks getting more benefit of the doubt than lower draft picks, despite "performance" (see Wellwood vs Higgins). Yet, you state that draft position is important in determining who the "better' prospect is ...

hmmmmm ....

Again, what gives ?
This thread is all about perception ...

Logically the earlier you are drafted on DRAFT DAY means something ..because on that day they where considered Best player available. So in current/recent team or Top 50 lists the most recently selected prospects always carry the most weight in rankings but as time passes and their own performances or lack there of changes everything.

Ron Hainsey when drafted 13th in 2000 appeared on many lists and now ask yourself WHY IS HE NOT ON THE LIST ?? The older he gets the better or more successful you are supposed to be .. Higgins and Kostitsyn drafted high appear on lists and rankings but have not earned their way on to the lists...their draft position got them there right now and when they struggle the only direction they can go is DOWN in PERCEPTION

Yet a player like Pavel Datsyuk (Height 5.10 -- Weight 168).. Selected by Detroit Red Wings round 6 #171 overall 1998 NHL Entry Draft will never appear on any list.. in fact he was drafted at 20 years old, and passed over in 2 previous drafts as well.. because he was drafted later and will earn no respect from anyone except by fans of the team he is drafted by and UNTIL he plays in the NHL and is not longer considered a prospect ..

Would you as a Habs fan trade HIGHLY regarded Higgins or Kostitsyn right now straight up for Datsyuk ?? Would Detroit accept the offer ?? ... Why is the answer to the above question the exact opposite you would expect .. How come you can't trade TOP 50 prospects for successful young NHLer's that where never TOP PROSPECTS or drafted High ??

A team ranking list ironically rewards failure more than success ... If the players that a team drafts does not make the NHL he factors into the rankings if a young player jumps direct to the NHL he is no longer a prospect and doesnt count..

Which would you rather have a high ranked prospect or team or players in the NHL ??

When the purpose of the ranking in the first place it to determine who will be better in the NHL, but only includes players recently drafted or slow progressing prospects that haven't or will not make the NHL ..


Last edited by Mess: 12-02-2004 at 06:17 PM.
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Old
12-02-2004, 06:56 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Meh, Boyes is on a team where there is basically three scoring forwards (Bergeron, Hilbert, Boyes) and a hot goaltender. Providence is a low scoring team.
I'm not disputing that, but Kyle Wellwood is outplaying him... and on a team that wasn't expected to do anything this season. He's one of the main reasons why St. John's is 13-7.

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12-02-2004, 08:59 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
WOW, you pin the blame on Ballard. What an original excuse. Never heard that one before. And we had Houle, Molson, and Ron Corey trying to ruin it for us which led to the recent five year dry spell. When you get down to it, everyone can have a legit excuse.

If you think Ronald Corey Reggie Foule and Molson are equal to Ballard, you obviously weren't alive during the Ballard era. Harold Ballard ripped the soul out of the franchise and it took a very long time to recover. My greatest hope was that George "Can anyone Spare a dime I just went bankrupt" Gillete was going to be a modern day version of Ballard, but so far he has kept the Habs on the brink of the playoff picture, if not missing it. I can still wish for the ultimate collapse, but I don't htink it'll happen. Ballard installed a General Manager who went to court and proved he suffered brain damage in a car accident a few years earlier. Nobody can compare with Ballard for incompetence hopefully never again does another comes along like him.... unless to own the Habs.


Point being Keep your "Can't Miss" prospects and continue missing or barely making the playoffs for the Habs. I'll take having a chance at winning the cup over being the top rated "Future" at hockey's Future (not one real, paid scout on staff)

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Old
12-02-2004, 09:42 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
If you think Ronald Corey Reggie Foule and Molson are equal to Ballard, you obviously weren't alive during the Ballard era. Harold Ballard ripped the soul out of the franchise and it took a very long time to recover. My greatest hope was that George "Can anyone Spare a dime I just went bankrupt" Gillete was going to be a modern day version of Ballard, but so far he has kept the Habs on the brink of the playoff picture, if not missing it. I can still wish for the ultimate collapse, but I don't htink it'll happen. Ballard installed a General Manager who went to court and proved he suffered brain damage in a car accident a few years earlier. Nobody can compare with Ballard for incompetence hopefully never again does another comes along like him.... unless to own the Habs.
Those are just excuses. Ballard? Houle/Molson? all the same to me.

Quote:
Point being Keep your "Can't Miss" prospects and continue missing or barely making the playoffs for the Habs. I'll take having a chance at winning the cup over being the top rated "Future" at hockey's Future (not one real, paid scout on staff)
mmm Since Gillett took over in 2001, the Leafs have won exactly one round of playoff hockey more than the Montreal, and that with a $70 million payroll difference over those three years combined. Good Job.

As for the farm, those blue chippers started being collected in 2001 (with the Komi and Perez drafting). You think its an overnight deal to go from a kid drafted at 18 to the NHL ?

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12-02-2004, 10:54 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
Those are just excuses. Ballard? Houle/Molson? all the same to me.



mmm Since Gillett took over in 2001, the Leafs have won exactly one round of playoff hockey more than the Montreal, and that with a $70 million payroll difference over those three years combined. Good Job.
Toronto Maple Leafs
2001 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1
2002 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 2
2003 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 0
2004 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1

Total Rounds Won = 2
Total Rounds Participated = 8

Montreal Canadiens
2001 Playoffs - Did not participate
2002 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1
2003 Playoffs - Did not participate
2004 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1

Total Rounds Won = 2
Total Rounds Participated = 4

So, if you wanted to put a Toronto Maple Leafs spin on it, the Leafs have won "twice as many" playoff series as the Canadiens.

However, if you wanted to be reasonable - you would see that Montreal did not even make the playoffs in two of those years.

Unless you believe that since Montreal only won one more playoff series than Pittsburgh last year, the two teams were very close in terms of overall success ?

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Old
12-03-2004, 08:35 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAndWhite
Toronto Maple Leafs
2001 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1
2002 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 2
2003 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 0
2004 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1

Total Rounds Won = 2
Total Rounds Participated = 8

Montreal Canadiens
2001 Playoffs - Did not participate
2002 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1
2003 Playoffs - Did not participate
2004 Playoffs - Rounds Won = 1

Total Rounds Won = 2
Total Rounds Participated = 4

So, if you wanted to put a Toronto Maple Leafs spin on it, the Leafs have won "twice as many" playoff series as the Canadiens.

However, if you wanted to be reasonable - you would see that Montreal did not even make the playoffs in two of those years.
Gillett took over the team before the 2001-2002 season, hence your tally of the 2001 playoffs is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Quote:
Unless you believe that since Montreal only won one more playoff series than Pittsburgh last year, the two teams were very close in terms of overall success ?
Same could be said for Toronto.

But anyways, I digress, this this thread is going nowhere fast.

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Old
12-03-2004, 03:28 PM
  #62
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I closed this thread since it's becoming a Habs vs leafs yack fest.

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