I thought he started off playing with Harrison...? It was McBain and Kaberle, wasn't it...?
It was Faulk-Kaberle. I remember that because Faulk being caught out of position to deal with his partners ill advised pinches was one of the big reasons he was being thrown under the bus at the start of the season.
BB you aren't the only one there. That was the moment I really turned against Kaberle
Ok, well I was thinking of the majority of the time when Kaberle was a Cane, coincidental to when Faulk was on the team. We can include the few games before he was sent down if you like, but I was thinking more about when he returned.
Where is our resident meth-head...we need stats stat!
Chemistry issues aside, he's still a top level PMD - something many teams still drool over themselves hoping to add to their team.
Just like a super hot chick that everyone tells you is crazy as hell, but you just have to see for yourselves, because.......damn, she's hot! I would bet there is still quite a bit of interest from other teams in Pitkanen.
The problem with Faulk the first few games was the he was playing with Faulk. He was atrocious, repeatedly making bad reads/plays that resulted in many flat out breakaways.
A problem that slowly went away as the season progressed.
The issue of a trade for a first is always tricky. Look at what it would take to get Eric Staal from the Canes. Sutter, Faulk, and the 8th? I'd say no in a heartbeat. And that's for a 70 point 8 million dollar a year 27? year old.
If Nail is going to be a 35g 80pt player for the next decade, value wise, Sutter/Faulk/8th probably isn't that absurd.
I don't believe Sutter can be replaced. But if we switch to 3 scoring lines instead of 2 scoring lines and a shutdown line, he doesn't need to be. Add in the huge hypothetical of Parise, and it would be a loss reasonably easily absorbed.
Faulk is a solid 3/4 guy at 19. But the gap between 3/4 and a franchise dman is very large. He may never progress. He's not a lot of things you see in Elite dmen. Big/Long/Fast/Agile/Skilled. I wouldn't call him exceptional in any of those things. He was a well-rounded player at a young age. But that's all he is thus far.
And the 8th is the 8th. Who knows.
I can't honestly talk about Yakupav with any authority, but if he's 35-45-80 calibur player, than I make the deal. Because a 3/4 dman and a defensive forward like Sutter have so much value to our roster because we can't get a guy who can put up 35-45-80.
It was definitely Kaberle and Faulk in the first 2-3 games of the season, before he was sent down. I remember because I was getting torn to shreds on this board for blaming Kaberle for the goals instead of following the mob mentality and blaming Faulk.
I totally agreed about Kabs there but I wasn't on the boards yet. I'm just trying to put the Kabs experiment out of my memory
Because its post lockout all previous value on flip flopping is out the window? Interesting. Brad richards previous contract was far more distressing to me. Nail may be the least exciting first overall pick in some time, he is no lock for any amounts of pts. I wouldn't hesitate to take hall, rnh, or even Kane over him. I don't see elite. I see the best of this particular bunch. Maybe I'll be wrong, we'll see. I wouldnt trade sutter for him straight up, the idea of trading sutter....in a package with other assets....to just flip flop is ridiculous.
Take one second rounder to jump to 4 or 5, take another second and a third....or if you're feeling saucy next years first and flip flop to one.
No Sutter or Mcbain required.What you're offering would be too much for us to offer for nash, let alone nail.
Well, let's be clear about what we're talking about here.
In the Crosby draft, simply Flip-flopping the #1 and #8 pick would be worth more than and a 2nd?
Or the Stamkos draft? Or the RNH draft? or Kane Draft? Or the Ovechkin draft? Or the Tavares draft?
Acting like a flip flop from 1 to 8 is no big deal, and a 2nd is fair to go from first overall to 8th overall can't possibly be your position. So probably best to stop repeating flip flop like it somehow diminishes the huge gap in value between a first overall and the eighth overall.
Now what you're more likely saying is that you don't think Nail is that good. And that's fine. A completely different discussion. But it has nothing to do with the notion of flip flip-flopping for more than a 2nd to move from 1 to 8 being silly.
I am curious why people think he's not that good though. What I've read, what I've seen, and his stats all point to him being something special. The fact he's already in the OHL seems to signify he's not a 'screw you, I'm going to russia' guy.
What I've seen and read myself leads me to think "eh, he's good, but he's nothing special". Heading into this draft there was a ton of hype around him, and he put up some ridiculous numbers in the OHL, but he did little to improve this year even factoring in the injury. And he was absolutely a non-factor in the playoffs being under PPG, and a -7 in a 6 game series.
Frankly, I simply see him as a slightly better version of Evander Kane. Giving up 3 possible core assets (Sutter, Faulk, 8th) does not equate to acquiring what is essentially a star piece but not a franchise piece. It's not a justifiable move to me. Everything I've seen this year, every single thing, leads me to believe that there are no franchise pieces this season. It happens, some drafts have plenty of them (03, 08, 11) some don't have any.
I said a second to flip to 4th or 5th, and then whatever picks are required to get to 1 from there. Much cheaper than going straight from 1 to 8, and much more realistic.
And I've said it a couple of times. I wouldn't trade sutter for him straight up. Don't think he's worth the stink. I think the reason there are all these trade threads is because he isn't that great a number one, not because edm has so many high picks already. If there was a draft to drop a couple of picks, get a guy you like just as much, and grab an extra pick or two this is the one.
Even there, most I can see that costing (8th to 4th then 4th to 1st) is a couple 2nds and rights to swap 1sts one of the next two seasons. And frankly this year that would be overpayment from us to do so, Grigorenko (who's projected to be anywhere from 2nd to 5th this year and is rumored to be "slipping") could easily end up being as good as Nail.
Hell, Teravainen, who's projected to go anywhere from 8th to 15th, could very easily prove to be one of the top 3 players in the draft. We're better off standing pat at #8 this year. The top tier of players (well, Nail then the tier that's a hair below him) is about 10 or 11 players strong.
If you think he's going to be Evander Kane, then sure. But it seems unlikely the guy who's a clear step above everyone else is being projected to put up 57 points in his 3rd season.
If that were really what's expected of him, what does that say about the guys who are a tier below him? Seems like an unrealistically pessimistic outlook, because if it were accurate, surely one other player would be projected to be a 60 point+ player with him rather than nobody being considered in the same tier?
I see Nail being about a 65 point player by his 3rd season. As I said, a slightly better version of Evander Kane.
And yep, a rather depressing outlook on him and the draft. Nail, Grigorenko, Galchenyuk, and Forsberg are the only forwards that should be called likely to be top 6. Faksa's upside is as a top 6 guy, but could easily find himself being a 3rd liner. Teravainen could be a top liner, or he could end up not ever making the league. To be blunt, this draft sucks.
Is someone 'in the know' agreeing with you on this Nail projection?
I'll see if I can dig up the thread, but McKenzie made the comment earlier this year about scouts saying this wasn't that strong of a draft, it was some point before the deadline.
As for Nail himself, I'm basing this off following drafts for almost a decade now. Nail just doesn't have that "it" factor to me that I remember seeing from a lot of players in their draft years. Among other names I remember being far more impressed by: Stamkos, Tavares, Duchene, Patrick Kane, Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, Huberdeau, Hedman, Larsson, Landeskog, Ryan Murphy, Couturier