I think he gets in, in the same way that Mark Howe did. As time goes by, it will look more and more strange that he's not in the hall, and the committee will put him in to round out a relatively weak year.
I think he gets in, in the same way that Mark Howe did. As time goes by, it will look more and more strange that he's not in the hall, and the committee will put him in to round out a relatively weak year.
I don't think he makes it in and with the HHOF only putting in 4 guys a year there is going to be quite the backlog of players that he simply will not be able to leapfrog IMO.
Oates is one of the greatest playmakers of all time. Hard to keep him out of the hall.
I posted this a long time ago, but....
Using all of the usual criteria combined(Peak, Prime, Consistency, longevity). Since a few people have different definitions of Peak and Prime, etc. Ill just throw my definitions in before I list since a few people misinterpret my meaning on occasion.
Peak:The player in his absolute best year. Sometimes, I use terms such as "Peak regular season year" or "peak playoff year", because some players have different years in which the separate aspects peak, as well as saying "peak 5 years"(A slight variation on prime). However, Peak year, in general, to me would imply the players best year.
Prime:The players prime years. A combination of years in which the player produces at his best, including his peak year, until a visible decline appears. Primes do not need to be fluid. Players can have off years/injury between their prime.
Now, to the top 5 playmakers of all time.
#1 Wayne Gretzky: No real need to elaborate. The undisputed greatest playmaker ever to play the game. 16 time assist leader. The guy had eyes in the back of his head, and could read a play like no other. Only 11 players in NHL history have hit 90 assists, only 5 players more than once. Wayne did it 13 times himself. A few more probably could have if era is taken into account, but nonetheless, it is remarkable.
#2 Gordie Howe: A 3 time assist leader, but a 14 time top 5 assist man in his career, and a 22 time top 10 assist man. A few Others had a slightly better playmaking peak, but his sheer consistency and longevity is overwhelming against most.
#3 Mario Lemieux: A 3 time assist leader, 3 time Runner up, and 9 time top 4 assist man. Had the misfortune of playing his prime against the greatest playmaker of all time. Removing Gretzky from the equation would give Lemieux 6 assist titles. He is the only person other than Gretzky to score 90 points more than twice(5 times), and 3 of those 90 assists came with some pretty bad linemates. He holds the second best assist per game ratio ever. 1033 assists in 915 games despite his many health/physical problems faced(He was 4th in assists in 92-93 only 6 assists from #1, despite missing 24 games to cancer).
#4A Adam Oates: A 3 time assist leader, 2 time Runner up and a 12 time top 7 playmaker. 1079 assists in 1337 games. Remove Gretzky from the equation and he is a 4 time leader. His longevity and consistency is notable to give him an argument for #3 spot, but Lemieux's peak beats the slight longevity lead.
#4B Bobby Orr:If we were judging on peak only basis, then Orr would certainly be fighting for #2 with Lemieux. 5 Time assist leader, once a runner up. The man was a wizard. Longevity will always be a problem in his regard though.
Notable omission: #6 Frank Boucher: a 3 time assist leader, 4 time runner up and 9 time top 6 assist man. A key member of the bread line with the Cook brothers. I know less of Boucher than the others, but his numbers and his legend speak for themselves. In fact, he may need to move up the list.
How exactly does the HHOF keep out a guy who is top 5 ALL TIME in a category like playmaking?
They've done some stupid things lately though. For whatever reason people - and the media - were in love with Joe Nieuwendyk. He could do no wrong. But he and Oates have their careers overlap each other almost to a tee. Now, if you watched both players in their career it would be hard to say that Nieuwendyk was better but according to the HHOF he is. Which is wrong. Oates was the better player. Oates was the more IMPORTANT player to his teams.
I think the fact that he left a team or two in a huff hasn't helped him, but how long should that keep a guy out?
The only player above Oates in career playoff points that's not a Hall of Famer is Bobby Smith.
And yes Claude Lemieux will get in.
I think some voters just don't like Oates but it's impossible to keep him out.
You think Claude Lemieux will get in? I don't think he should to be honest. It would likely surprise a lot of people to know that Oates only has two fewer playoff points than him. Nothing Claude did in the regular season is even worth mentioning
Oates is one of the greatest playmakers of all time. Hard to keep him out of the hall.
I posted this a long time ago, but....
Using all of the usual criteria combined(Peak, Prime, Consistency, longevity). Since a few people have different definitions of Peak and Prime, etc. Ill just throw my definitions in before I list since a few people misinterpret my meaning on occasion.
Peak:The player in his absolute best year. Sometimes, I use terms such as "Peak regular season year" or "peak playoff year", because some players have different years in which the separate aspects peak, as well as saying "peak 5 years"(A slight variation on prime). However, Peak year, in general, to me would imply the players best year.
Prime:The players prime years. A combination of years in which the player produces at his best, including his peak year, until a visible decline appears. Primes do not need to be fluid. Players can have off years/injury between their prime.
Now, to the top 5 playmakers of all time.
#1 Wayne Gretzky: No real need to elaborate. The undisputed greatest playmaker ever to play the game. 16 time assist leader. The guy had eyes in the back of his head, and could read a play like no other. Only 11 players in NHL history have hit 90 assists, only 5 players more than once. Wayne did it 13 times himself. A few more probably could have if era is taken into account, but nonetheless, it is remarkable.
#2 Gordie Howe: A 3 time assist leader, but a 14 time top 5 assist man in his career, and a 22 time top 10 assist man. A few Others had a slightly better playmaking peak, but his sheer consistency and longevity is overwhelming against most.
#3 Mario Lemieux: A 3 time assist leader, 3 time Runner up, and 9 time top 4 assist man. Had the misfortune of playing his prime against the greatest playmaker of all time. Removing Gretzky from the equation would give Lemieux 6 assist titles. He is the only person other than Gretzky to score 90 points more than twice(5 times), and 3 of those 90 assists came with some pretty bad linemates. He holds the second best assist per game ratio ever. 1033 assists in 915 games despite his many health/physical problems faced(He was 4th in assists in 92-93 only 6 assists from #1, despite missing 24 games to cancer).
#4A Adam Oates: A 3 time assist leader, 2 time Runner up and a 12 time top 7 playmaker. 1079 assists in 1337 games. Remove Gretzky from the equation and he is a 4 time leader. His longevity and consistency is notable to give him an argument for #3 spot, but Lemieux's peak beats the slight longevity lead.
#4B Bobby Orr:If we were judging on peak only basis, then Orr would certainly be fighting for #2 with Lemieux. 5 Time assist leader, once a runner up. The man was a wizard. Longevity will always be a problem in his regard though.
Notable omission: #6 Frank Boucher: a 3 time assist leader, 4 time runner up and 9 time top 6 assist man. A key member of the bread line with the Cook brothers. I know less of Boucher than the others, but his numbers and his legend speak for themselves. In fact, he may need to move up the list.
How exactly does the HHOF keep out a guy who is top 5 ALL TIME in a category like playmaking?
This HHOF and the hockey establishment in general clearly don't care about assist totals. They care about points (goals plus assists) and goals. Oates was still such a good point producer that he should be in, but it's not as much of a travesty as if you just look at his assist numbers. Oates was basically on the same level as Hawerchuk and Savard as a point producer but below them as a goal scorer so there you go. I don't think either of them was first ballot, was he?
That said, Oates will get in eventually. I just wonder if it will be in Harry Sinden's lifetime
This HHOF and the hockey establishment in general clearly don't care about assist totals. They care about points (goals plus assists) and goals. Oates was still such a good point producer that he should be in, but it's not as much of a travesty as if you just look at his assist numbers. Oates was basically on the same level as Hawerchuk and Savard as a point producer but below them as a goal scorer so there you go. I don't think either of them was first ballot, was he?
That said, Oates will get in eventually. I just wonder if it will be in Harry Sinden's lifetime
Savard was first ballot in 2000. Hawerchuk, for some reason, was forced to wait a year while Mullen got in first ballot in 2000 with Savard
I think people are reading the title of the thread as "should" instead of "will he".
The 23-1 voting is more in line with should rather than will IMO.
If he was a lock, as has been suggested by some, he would be in by now and with the 4 guys per year rule and the backlog already in the system I think the longer it goes the less likely it is.
I think people are reading the title of the thread as "should" instead of "will he".
The 23-1 voting is more in line with should rather than will IMO.
If he was a lock, as has been suggested by some, he would be in by now and with the 4 guys per year rule and the backlog already in the system I think the longer it goes the less likely it is.
"Will he" pretty much covers forever so its a safe bet to say yes.
You think Claude Lemieux will get in? I don't think he should to be honest. It would likely surprise a lot of people to know that Oates only has two fewer playoff points than him. Nothing Claude did in the regular season is even worth mentioning
He was a pest but he's also...how would I say....well remembered in Montreal New Jersey and Colorado.
So it's not like he was a pest and a good player on one team.
The 4 Cups are massive, he got the one Conn Smythe and had two other very strong playoff years while overall he was very good in the playoffs period.
Regular season is how it goes, he wasn't terrible, 39 goals in 95-96 is noteworthy.
I guess I sound like he's a lock, he'll probably have to wait but he's got Glenn Anderson written all over him and Anderson spent most of his career on one super stacked team. His numbers are one of the most misleading in hockey history. Yes, even in Toronto, right place right time guy.
Claude Lemieux was gritty as hell, I'd vote for him.
He was a pest but he's also...how would I say....well remembered in Montreal New Jersey and Colorado.
So it's not like he was a pest and a good player on one team.
The 4 Cups are massive, he got the one Conn Smythe and had two other very strong playoff years while overall he was very good in the playoffs period.
Regular season is how it goes, he wasn't terrible, 39 goals in 95-96 is noteworthy.
I guess I sound like he's a lock, he'll probably have to wait but he's got Glenn Anderson written all over him and Anderson spent most of his career on one super stacked team. His numbers are one of the most misleading in hockey history. Yes, even in Toronto, right place right time guy.
Claude Lemieux was gritty as hell, I'd vote for him.
IMO Anderson shouldn't be in either but he has Claude beaten by a huge margin in the regular season (and Anderson isn't in the HHOF for his regular seasons either).
Lemieux's best ever season was 12th in goals, 2nd best tied for 19th in goals.
In his career he only stacks up 38th in regualr season goal scoring, quite simply not a HHOF career.
He really needs even more playoff heroics like a 2nd CS and 20 more playoff goals in his 234 playoff games to even get any serious consideration IMO.
The CS and 2 other decent playoffs are nice icing but Claude lacks the cake to put them on.
Last edited by Hardyvan123: 04-12-2012 at 09:12 PM.
He was a pest but he's also...how would I say....well remembered in Montreal New Jersey and Colorado.
So it's not like he was a pest and a good player on one team.
The 4 Cups are massive, he got the one Conn Smythe and had two other very strong playoff years while overall he was very good in the playoffs period.
Regular season is how it goes, he wasn't terrible, 39 goals in 95-96 is noteworthy.
I guess I sound like he's a lock, he'll probably have to wait but he's got Glenn Anderson written all over him and Anderson spent most of his career on one super stacked team. His numbers are one of the most misleading in hockey history. Yes, even in Toronto, right place right time guy.
Claude Lemieux was gritty as hell, I'd vote for him.
He never posted more than 81 points in a season and played a lot of his career in a high scoring era.
He came to play in the postseason in general, but he doesn't reach Anderson in either regular or postseason play. I don't care if Anderson was the "right guy at the right time" the point is he is a huge contributor to a dynasty. It isn't as if Claude was saddled with the Whalers either. He starts off as a Hab and goes to Jersey prior to when they got good. Signs with Colorado the year they win as well. He was an important piece in 2-3 of his Cups. Anderson won 6 and was a big deal in 5 of them.
Anderson also played in the 1980s and had 100 point and 50 goal seasons. I don't care that Messier was his center, the guy did it regularly and let's not pretend he was just a passenger.
Oates apparently has some off-ice issues which is the only reason why he is not in already. I think he will eventually get elected, but afaik Oates was never much liked as a person. Such things should not count here, but they do.
Oates was left out from numerous Team Canada rosters as well. Was it during 1996 World Cup or 1998 Olympics when Oates said he would play for Team USA if Canada does not take him. US coach or GM replied that he is interested only about those players who want to play Team USA first...
Yes he does, perhaps one of the top play makers of all time.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
