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What is Richards value

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Old
11-26-2004, 02:21 PM
  #1
Flamesfan 26
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What is Richards value

What would the Flyers want from the Flames in exchange for Mike Richards in terms of prospects and young players. No Phaneuf.

Would this be close

Flyers get
Ramholt
Lombardi
Ference

Flames get
Richards
Fedoruk

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11-26-2004, 02:51 PM
  #2
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That would be close, in my opinion. How about spicing it up a little? Richards and a Flyers roster player for Donovan and Ramholt?

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11-26-2004, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalanche 26
What would the Flyers want from the Flames in exchange for Mike Richards in terms of prospects and young players.
I don't think they would want anything. The last thing the Flyers are going to do right now is move either Richards or Carter right now.

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11-26-2004, 04:05 PM
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I would agree with that, although there may end up being a logjam at center in a year or two. The Flyers could always use a tough winger that can score, and it would be nice to replenish our D-man prospect depth.

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11-26-2004, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury
I would agree with that, although there may end up being a logjam at center in a year or two. The Flyers could always use a tough winger that can score, and it would be nice to replenish our D-man prospect depth.
Yes, we may end up with more of a logjam than we have now, but I hope Clarke will at least wait until we can see what we have with those two.

I want a good, young, and mean defenceman if either of them are packaged.

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11-26-2004, 04:39 PM
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This is Richard's value
"Richards of the Kitchener Rangers was a strong performer for his side as he smartly set up the first goal and was a dangerous player every shift he was on the ice." -NHL.com

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11-26-2004, 10:19 PM
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For me we would have to get Phaneuf so don't bother calling.

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11-26-2004, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by flyersrock1
For me we would have to get Phaneuf so don't bother calling.
Phaneuf for Richards? No way Calgary would call back to that trade.

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11-26-2004, 10:24 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Phaneuf for Richards? No way Calgary would call back to that trade.
Hey I told you not to call right

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11-26-2004, 10:26 PM
  #10
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Right now I'd say it's pretty high. Now if they sign Zhamnov and Umberger looks like a 2nd line center things could change. Another what if might be that kid Ryan who's eligable this season. What if he's there when Calgary picks would they deal Richards for him?

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11-26-2004, 10:49 PM
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Richards gets absolutely no love on this board. He's probably our best prospect, but because he isn't 6'3, he's dropped a couple of spots. I'll say this. I bet Richards becomes another Sakic type player. I hear about how great Richards is defensively and all that other jazz, but what you never hear about is that the guy has awesome offensive numbers. He's an offensively gifted centerman and we've already got him pegged as a third line heart and soul. Hogwash. Mike Richards has the ability to be a first line centerman IF given the opportunity. I say Mike Richards is just as untouchable as Jeff Carter, maybe moreso because Mike is the complete package.

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11-27-2004, 11:24 AM
  #12
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i think it is pretty clear from reading between the lines that in order to get Richards/Carter you are going to be talking about a top-flight prospect in return, and lets be serious, a top-flight dman or winger wouldn't be the worst trade to make with our plethora of centers.

imagine ADDING a top-tier defensive prospect to our team to go with Joni, Seids, KJ, Markov... that would be friggin huge for having an extremely stable blue-line for the forseeable future, even if salary-cap issues end up forcing us to lose some people.

then think about the idea of adding a top-tier winger to go with our group of centers and young blue-line, equally not bad considering our lack of players there.

to say a player is un-tradeable, which Ed Wade is dumb enough to believe, is completely idiotic. everyone has a value, even Wayne Gretzky in his prime (the only good trade involves bankrupting the other team, but a value does exist), so you have to listen to offers for ANY of our prospects... if a good deal is to be had, you make the deal. that judgment is obviously a hard one when the guys have never strapped 'em up for cash...

that being said, i'm pretty sure the flyers as an organization are committed to the idea of getting all these guys (Richards, Carter, Ruzicka, etc...) onto the payroll and seeing what we got. i don't think any of them are getting crapped on, i see a lot of love for Richards around here, but the fact remains that they are prospects and who knows what we really have (ie, they may be worth more now than they will be down the road... a decision Clarkie and company have to think about). some of these guys aren't going to stick at center probably, or won't stick with the flyers since their are ONLY 4 spots to fill, but it seems like most are going to be NHL quality players here or somewhere else.

can't make any trades right now anyway... and who knows what our situation will be whenever they start playing hockey again, have no idea what our prospect/UFA situation will be whenever that does happen. hopefully we don't lose these guys back into the draft... but i'm feeling alright that there will be some sort of grace period to get all these floating prospects signed before the next draft takes place.

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11-27-2004, 11:35 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Richards gets absolutely no love on this board. He's probably our best prospect, but because he isn't 6'3, he's dropped a couple of spots. I'll say this. I bet Richards becomes another Sakic type player. I hear about how great Richards is defensively and all that other jazz, but what you never hear about is that the guy has awesome offensive numbers. He's an offensively gifted centerman and we've already got him pegged as a third line heart and soul. Hogwash. Mike Richards has the ability to be a first line centerman IF given the opportunity. I say Mike Richards is just as untouchable as Jeff Carter, maybe moreso because Mike is the complete package.
i'm not "ragging" on him because of his size, but he isn't going to be a #1 center at the NHL level... and size is pretty much the reason. it is VERY difficult to play at the #1 center level as a small player. defensemen are simply too big, and the rules aren't enforced in a way that a smaller player can move around them with quickness, etc. to gain an advantage on them, unless they have somewhat unmatcheable speed/stickhandling... which none of the reports suggest Richards has.

look around the league at the centers that are performing well... they are either big boys, or absolute burners... or you got a guy like Sakic who has one of the greatest wrist-shots in the history of the league... not sure Richards falls into those categories.

disregarding any of that... presumably Richards is going to be playing for Hitchcock, do you really think Hitchcock is going to take a guy with Richards' supposed talents and turn him into a #1 center? the guy is supposedly a beast in the faceoff circle, excellent positionally, responsible in both ends of the ice, and potentially an excellent PK'er. sounds like a smaller version of Handzus... if you pay attention to how Hitch uses Handzus, he keeps him off of the #1 line so that he can absolutely abuse him on the PK, thus why Zeus ALWAYS seems to be out there when we are a man-down.

i hope i'm wrong though... i hope both Carter and Richards turn out to be #1 center talent, would be nice to have a Tampa-esque situation here so that they can feel my fear whenever our top two lines are out on the ice.

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11-27-2004, 03:47 PM
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I pretty much agree with the analysis of Richards in this thread, I think he'll turn into a very good No.2 C although I'm not quite sure if he'll ever be a true No.1 (sort of like Zeus). The only way we deal him to Calgary is if Phaneuf is somehow involved.

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11-27-2004, 07:18 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Richards gets absolutely no love on this board. He's probably our best prospect, but because he isn't 6'3, he's dropped a couple of spots. I'll say this. I bet Richards becomes another Sakic type player. I hear about how great Richards is defensively and all that other jazz, but what you never hear about is that the guy has awesome offensive numbers. He's an offensively gifted centerman and we've already got him pegged as a third line heart and soul. Hogwash. Mike Richards has the ability to be a first line centerman IF given the opportunity. I say Mike Richards is just as untouchable as Jeff Carter, maybe moreso because Mike is the complete package.
The only reason people even consider dealing Richards is b/c we already have a good crop of centers, and b/c the other top tier prospect, Carter is a center to, and u hear alot more about Carter and how good he is gonna be then Richards. i am not saying Carter is better then Richards, but thats how alot of people feel, and you hear alot more about him. I say keep them both. or only for someone like Phaneuf like everyone is saying would i deal him.

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11-27-2004, 08:48 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
i'm not "ragging" on him because of his size, but he isn't going to be a #1 center at the NHL level... and size is pretty much the reason. it is VERY difficult to play at the #1 center level as a small player. defensemen are simply too big, and the rules aren't enforced in a way that a smaller player can move around them with quickness, etc. to gain an advantage on them, unless they have somewhat unmatcheable speed/stickhandling... which none of the reports suggest Richards has.

look around the league at the centers that are performing well... they are either big boys, or absolute burners... or you got a guy like Sakic who has one of the greatest wrist-shots in the history of the league... not sure Richards falls into those categories.

i hope i'm wrong though... i hope both Carter and Richards turn out to be #1 center talent, would be nice to have a Tampa-esque situation here so that they can feel my fear whenever our top two lines are out on the ice.
There are a few points I need to disagree with. First, Ottawa's top centerman isn't the biggest or fastest in the world. And come to think of it, Todd White was a former Flyers prospect as well. I think sometimes people over value having a 6'4 200+ pound centerman as their number one anyways. If you take a look around the league, those centerman are becoming a rarity as being number one. There will always be a roster spot for a big centerman, but they are no longer the be all and end all that they used to be.

In Detroit, Steve Yzerman was a number one for years and Richards is about the same size and probably as fast as Stevie was. I'd even go on to say that Richards is probably about the same size as Datsyuk. Datsyuk is a good skater, but he isn't the biggest player in the world. You can then take a look in Colorado and see that Sakic and Forsberg weren't the biggest either. We can then go to Vancouver where the biggest centerman works the third and fourth lines and the top two lines are manned by centerman who are 6' 190 pounds. Not bruisers by any stretch. We go to Edmonton where the previous centermen weren't 6'3+ behemoths. Same in Montreal. Same in Calgary. Same in Buffalo. Same in Phoenix.

I'm just trying to say that I think the organization may under value Richards' ability if all what they'll have him do is play a defensive role and work on the penalty kill. It's a waste if they are just going to limit him to that (which is probably what Hitch will do).

I'd like to think that after playing and getting beat by Tampa Bay, this organization realizes that having two offensively gifted centermen isn't a bad thing. And people can say what they want about Tampa Bay and being a good defensive team, but their bread and butter is offense, offense, offense. I'd like to see our team move in that direction.

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Old
11-28-2004, 09:44 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
In Detroit, Steve Yzerman was a number one for years and Richards is about the same size and probably as fast as Stevie was. I'd even go on to say that Richards is probably about the same size as Datsyuk. Datsyuk is a good skater, but he isn't the biggest player in the world.
I appreciate your high regard for Richards, and I share it, but there is no way he's in a league with Steve Yzerman in any regard. Even in Jr, Stevie was twice the player Richards is. And Datsyuk is an elite world class playmaker. Richards is great, and I know there is a role for smaller players, but he's on course to be the steady Daymond Langkow type player. Smaller centre with decent numbers, good two way game and character. This is a compliment.

Richards' strength is his two way play, not sheer offensive ability. Sometimes guys like that have a harder time putting up big numbers in the pros, where the D is faster, bigger and better. See Langkow or Mike Ricci for examples. Scored tonnes in Jr, not so much in the NHL.

Carter is definitely a potential #1 C, with Richards at #2 C and wearing the C, five years down the road.

In any case, we're not trading Carter or Richards, to Calgary or anywhere else, so this whole thread is moot.

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11-28-2004, 12:40 PM
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Richards is in the running for the Team Canada captaincy, he's already the captain of Kitchener. I think he has the potential to replace Primeau eventually in that respect and become an Yzerman-ish type of guy on and off the ice in the Philadelphia community.

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11-28-2004, 04:49 PM
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If anyone also watched the OHL vs Team Russia series, Richards was the OHL's best player as well. He was a menace for the Russians and was always involved in most scoring chances. Let's see. Team Captain of OHL. Check. Possible team captain of the Canadian Junior Team. Check. One of the top scorers in the OHL. Check. Emerges as the top prospect in Philadelphia. Check. Possible steal of the 2003 draft. Check. We've got a good one here in Richards. Could be a real fun player to watch. I'm thinking he'll become a Brad Richards type player - probably better than the top center on the team, but will be content playing in the shadow.

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11-28-2004, 06:18 PM
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I've only seen flashes of him play, mostly from the WJC. Looks like a good prospect. I hope we keep him. He sounds like he may be a Justin Williams type player. Size is overrated. Just look at Martin St Louis, who was pegged as a career AHLer because of his size.

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11-28-2004, 06:50 PM
  #21
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Hey guys - there is an article on Richards in the Winter 2004 edition of Prospects Hockey magazine (official magazine of the CHL) - unfortunately it's not available online.

Just a couple of lines from the article.....

Richards gets his fair share of points. Through 207 career games with the Rangers, he has scored 101 goals and picked up 153 assists. Obviously great numbers, but when coupled with his relentless two-way game, it puts him in a zone rarely achieved by even the most talented junior hockey players. In other words, Richards has turned into a star by not being a star, if you catch the drift.

"This guy really [was] an unsung hero for Canada", said Kingston Frontenacs coach Jim Hulton, an assistant with Team Canada. "Consistency is his greatest asset. Penalty killing is not razzle-dazzle stuff; it's meat-and-potatoes stuff. Richie [was] our [best] guy there".

But there is nothing ordinary about his game and the accomplishments that are starting to pile up because of it. This year's World Junior tournament will be the latest milestone for Richards, who surely - his own modesty aside - has to be considered one of the most well-rounded under-20 hockey players in the world right now.

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11-29-2004, 09:19 AM
  #22
Jester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo
I've only seen flashes of him play, mostly from the WJC. Looks like a good prospect. I hope we keep him. He sounds like he may be a Justin Williams type player. Size is overrated. Just look at Martin St Louis, who was pegged as a career AHLer because of his size.
wing is a completely different position in the size discussion due to the role that they play on the ice. center has to be able to go low on defense to take out opponents and obviously work the boards at both ends... not to mention st. louis is one of the fastest players in the league, which also changes the discussion.

forsberg is 6'1" 200 lbs, which is not small by any means... he's also one of the most physical forwards in the league, while being one of the most talented as well, probably why he's hurt all the time.

and dear god, lets NOT start comparing Richards to Stevie Y who is one of the greatest players to ever lace them up. that's completely unrealistic and completely unfair to Richards.

he's going to be a good player, but in the modern NHL there is no way around the fact that it is harder for a smaller player to have uber-success. size makes up for a lot of things that might be missing in a guys game on the skill end, which means you have to have that much higher a skill-level to makeup for your size... that's why it's tough when you're small. he's going to go from getting leaned on by dmen his size at the OHL, with less skill than him, to dmen that are 6'2"+ 200+lbs with equal skill level (especially if he's a no. 1) leaning on him...

as said, i hope i'm wrong... would be great if he can compete as a no. 1 center at the NHL level, but that is really tough. look around. you either got guys with size scoring, or guys with uber-talent... not a lot of guys who are "solid all-around" players, which is the compliment most associated with Richards, lighting up the league as no. 1 centers... there's nothing wrong with that.

i'd be very happy to have a situation where Carter is putting up like 80-100 pts a seaons, and Richards is putting up 60-80 pts a season while being an excellent two-way center... they both do that for 15 years, we'll all be happy campers.

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11-29-2004, 07:36 PM
  #23
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When I read the word "value," I expect to see a mathematically derived number at the end. We don't say "2 + 2 = potato," so why would we seek to do the same here? Why do people do this in every facet of life? Why, I ask you!?! Why?!? How many "knowns" in the world are actually derived from half-truths mixed with convensional "wisdom?" How many, I ask you!?! How many?!? What we need and GMs everywhere need is a method by which they can evaluate young players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Richards...is probably our best prospect, but because he isn't 6'3, he's dropped a couple of spots. I'll say this. I bet Richards becomes another Sakic type player.
FF,
I think you're on to something with your first sentence - I can't quantify it, but I'm certain Richards' stature has something to do with being picked 24th overall and not higher. I also agree that his minor (junior) performance after being drafted has been typical of many successful NHL players, size be damned. I don't know that it means he will have success in the NHL, but it is true that a percentage of NHL players who have success in juniors as 19- and 20-year-olds have had success in the NHL. I wish I could attach a number here, like X% of 19-year-old junior players who scored more than Y goals or won more than Z% of their faceoffs had NHL careers that lasted 10 years, or something like that. We could sink our teeth into that stuff, couldn't we?

You lost me completely with your comparison to Sakic. I think you should have stuck with your opening and finishing thoughts.

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11-30-2004, 09:59 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by stanley
You lost me completely with your comparison to Sakic. I think you should have stuck with your opening and finishing thoughts.
yeah... it really unfair to throw out future HoF'ers as comparisons to prospects. it's unfair to a guy like Crosby even. they are talented prospects and that is all for now. hopefully all these guys--Carter, Richards, Ruzicka, Umberger, etc...--turn out to be quality, if not great, NHL players, but that is NOT going to happen. no matter how stoked we are about these guys coming up, some of them will not make it as the level of player we are hoping for, and some of them WON'T be wearing the orange and black for their entire career... that is the way of things.

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12-01-2004, 12:46 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Phaneuf for Richards? No way Calgary would call back to that trade.
With Calgary's incredible defensive depth, I would not be so inclined to totally dismiss a deal that involved Richard's as the center piece in a deal for Phaneuf. You must consider that Calgary was high enough on Richards to consider picking him at 9 if Phaneuf wasn't available. Obviously the Flyers would have to add something probably considerable to this deal, but with Calgary's great depth on defense, they may consider listening to an offer that involves Richard's.

As for Richard's verse the rest of our prospects, I think it's pretty clear that Carter's upside is unmatched by anyone in our system. While I believe Mike will turn into a really solid, dependable, clutch 2nd line center, Carter's upside is that of a true #1 center in the mold of Mats Sundin. It's pretty clear that Carter is faster, stronger, has a better shot, and is a comprable play maker to Mike. I'm just happy we have both players in the system.

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