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Will Paul Martin get benched?

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04-13-2012, 12:40 PM
  #251
DoctrSteveBrule
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You're right. Having a budget for the defense that allowed you to allocate a grand total of 13.5M for 6 wingers for your top nine was a good thing. Thank God we have Paul Martin.
uhh, im pretty sure having 2 world class centers is the reason we have little to no money to spend on their wingers. We're slowly becoming the Washington Capitals as it is. Paying paul martin is not the reason we don't have moar scorez wingerz.

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04-13-2012, 12:52 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I can understand him believing that. At least those other guys weren't paid like Martin and weren't expected to be good.
Bingo. While there have been a lot worse players on the Pens over the years than Martin, obviously, the vast majority of them were never supposed to be top line/top pairing guys.

For instance, no matter how lousy Ben Lovejoy was this season, he wouldn't ever come close to the frustration people felt for Martin, because Lovejoy's 10 to 12 minutes a night and league minimum salary didn't carry the expectations that Martin's do.

Third or fourth liners/bottom pairing defensemen typically don't make or break a team's ultimate success; guys who are supposed to be top pairing defenders, however, can.

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04-13-2012, 12:54 PM
  #253
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Can I have a couple quarts of whatever brand of kool aid you're sipping.
I'd like to have some as well

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04-13-2012, 12:55 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by millzee53 View Post
uhh, im pretty sure having 2 world class centers is the reason we have little to no money to spend on their wingers. We're slowly becoming the Washington Capitals as it is. Paying paul martin is not the reason we don't have moar scorez wingerz.
Yes, paying Paul Martin is why we have more scores against . . .

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04-13-2012, 12:56 PM
  #255
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I'd like to have some as well
Oh, that's great, just what the new baby needs to see, a doped up daddy.

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04-13-2012, 12:57 PM
  #256
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I'd like to have some as well
my koolaid is from the level headed isle, right next to the medicine that makes you not freak out every time someone turns the puck over.

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04-13-2012, 12:59 PM
  #257
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Martin isn't an albatross. He's a useful player...he's just paid a bit too much for how he's playing.

Wade Redden...that was an albatross. Jeff Finger...albatross.

At least when Martin plays well he can come close to the level of play indicative of the salary he makes.

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04-13-2012, 01:04 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Yes, paying Paul Martin is why we have more scores against . . .
well Paul Martin was a +13 with 7 points in 13 games in march...

Say what you will about plus minus but in this case it simply means that he was on the ice for 13 more goals scored than allowed for that month. Apparently he's of a reason for us scoring more goals than allowing. Now he plays one playoff games and he's worth that Dan Focht.

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04-13-2012, 01:05 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by IanMoranFanclub View Post
I see what most everyone's saying. I just think that for as soft as Martin is, he still does some things well, even in the playoffs. That's not to say I wouldn't want to see him traded in the offseason. But this thread suggests that people are ignoring the things he does well on account of him being so soff. [/FONT]
When Martin's on, he's an asset to the team and worth his contract. He's a good skater, solid positionally, has a smart stick, and moves the puck efficiently out of trouble in transition.

The problem is that those talents have been on display far too infrequently this year (including the game on Wednesday), and when he's not doing those things well, his total lack of physical engagement is glaring.

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04-13-2012, 01:18 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Martin isn't an albatross. He's a useful player...he's just paid a bit too much for how he's playing.

Wade Redden...that was an albatross. Jeff Finger...albatross.

At least when Martin plays well he can come close to the level of play indicative of the salary he makes.
Well that's kinda the thing. He's rarely played well, and I also think people know how to attack him now in our system.

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04-13-2012, 01:24 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You're right. Having a budget for the defense that allowed you to allocate a grand total of 13.5M for 6 wingers for your top nine was a good thing. Thank God we have Paul Martin.
Your argument relies on the false assumption we don't score enough goals. We don't need wingers.

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04-13-2012, 01:36 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by millzee53 View Post
you can't honestly believe that...

Melichar...
Focht...
Actually, I liked Melichar before he killed his shoulder which killed his NHL career. Focht was irrelevant, barely a season of games on a poor team. I didn't care.

Melichar had more guts than Martin by FAR.

Martin has the tools, he just doesn't have the desire. I've never, ever, ever, ever seen a player bale out of a hit and allow the opposition to negate an icing in a NHL playoff game. Never. I could not believe that. I tried to be rational and I hope he plays tremendous and we win the cup. However, in the offseason trade him to Edmonton.

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04-13-2012, 01:37 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Your argument relies on the false assumption we don't score enough goals. We don't need wingers.
Exactly. We were the number 1 scoring team in the entire league. Why do we need to allocate more cap dollars to wingers?

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04-13-2012, 01:47 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Well that's kinda the thing. He's rarely played well, and I also think people know how to attack him now in our system.
He has played well. He has actually played well more than people give him credit for, IMO. Like I was saying though, as rare as some may think it happens, when Martin does play well, he's probably 0.500 overpaid. Not an albatross.

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04-13-2012, 01:48 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Well that's kinda the thing. He's rarely played well, and I also think people know how to attack him now in our system.
Bingo. Check out Briere's second goal. The one that went off Crosby. Rewind a little bit and notice that Martin applies "token pressure" as Briere goes to round the net. There's no "token pressure" in the playoffs. He needs to make body contact there. Doesn't need to put him through the glass; he needs to put body to body so Briere doesn't pick up speed and cause a breakdown against all the guys who are flatfooted. In my eyes Martin quit on the play.

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04-13-2012, 01:49 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
He has played well. He has actually played well more than people give him credit for, IMO. Like I was saying though, as rare as some may think it happens, when Martin does play well, he's probably 0.500 overpaid. Not an albatross.
I'll give you the fact that he played well at times during the second half of the season, but he's been bad a lot more often than he's been good.

I tried giving him the benefit of the doubt all season long, and I really didn't complain about him much at all. It's just gotten to the point to where I can't stand seeing him screw up all the time anymore.

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04-13-2012, 02:05 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Bingo. Check out Briere's second goal. The one that went off Crosby. Rewind a little bit and notice that Martin applies "token pressure" as Briere goes to round the net. There's no "token pressure" in the playoffs. He needs to make body contact there. Doesn't need to put him through the glass; he needs to put body to body so Briere doesn't pick up speed and cause a breakdown against all the guys who are flatfooted. In my eyes Martin quit on the play.
You know, maybe Paul Martin just doesn't like to touch guys. If that's the case, he's on the wrong ****ing team.

#SOPO

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Old
04-13-2012, 02:09 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Bingo. Check out Briere's second goal. The one that went off Crosby. Rewind a little bit and notice that Martin applies "token pressure" as Briere goes to round the net. There's no "token pressure" in the playoffs. He needs to make body contact there. Doesn't need to put him through the glass; he needs to put body to body so Briere doesn't pick up speed and cause a breakdown against all the guys who are flatfooted. In my eyes Martin quit on the play.
There are a lot of plays to get pissed at Martin for, but that goal is definitely not one of them. Briere is a fast, skilled player. Martin kept him to the outside and then picked up a man. He played that pretty well IMO. That goal was as fluky as they come.

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04-13-2012, 02:10 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
He has played well. He has actually played well more than people give him credit for, IMO. Like I was saying though, as rare as some may think it happens, when Martin does play well, he's probably 0.500 overpaid. Not an albatross.
I was a big fan of this guy when he was in Jersey. That might have been true then and most of last year, but it's not now. Most of his "success" has come with Letang who, if you've noticed, doesn't really involve Martin in the play. He doesn't reverse to him, doesn't give him the puck, nothing. In the brief time Martin stopped being brutal it was only because his partner didn't trust him enough to put him in positions in which he might be brutal. That isn't worth $4.5 mil. You can pair Letang with Boris Valabik, pretend he's not there and get the same result for 550k. What good is a circles-to-circles defenseman who can't be trusted from the circles to the circles? A guy who's key asset is that he makes the other 5 guys' lives easier with good support when he doesn't provide good support (see Briere goal #2).

There's an article in the Philly papers today about how the flyers' strategy hinges on neutralizing letang by dumping it in his corner and hitting him. The reason they went on record with this is because it's not what they're doing at all.

Watch the game tonight and count the number of times that puck gets dumped into Letang's corner vs Martin's corner. I'll save you the suspense: they aren't dumping it in Letang's corner anywhere near as often. The Flyers are neutralizing Letang by attacking Martin, because his compete isn't there, his footspeed has disappeared and his work ethic is something like Roger Dorn's from Major League.

We lose another game and I put someone from Wilkes-barre in there. Don't care who as long as it isn't Picard. We lost with a $5 million guy who doesn't give a crap. Maybe one of the minor leaguers will and maybe we win because of it.

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04-13-2012, 02:14 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
I was a big fan of this guy when he was in Jersey. That might have been true then and most of last year, but it's not now. Most of his "success" has come with Letang who, if you've noticed, doesn't really involve Martin in the play. He doesn't reverse to him, doesn't give him the puck, nothing. In the brief time Martin stopped being brutal it was only because his partner didn't trust him enough to put him in positions in which he might be brutal. That isn't worth $4.5 mil. You can pair Letang with Boris Valabik, pretend he's not there and get the same result for 550k. What good is a circles-to-circles defenseman who can't be trusted from the circles to the circles? A guy who's key asset is that he makes the other 5 guys' lives easier with good support when he doesn't provide good support (see Briere goal #2).

There's an article in the Philly papers today about how the flyers' strategy hinges on neutralizing letang by dumping it in his corner and hitting him. The reason they went on record with this is because it's not what they're doing at all.

Watch the game tonight and count the number of times that puck gets dumped into Letang's corner vs Martin's corner. I'll save you the suspense: they aren't dumping it in Letang's corner anywhere near as often. The Flyers are neutralizing Letang by attacking Martin, because his compete isn't there, his footspeed has disappeared and his work ethic is something like Roger Dorn's from Major League.

We lose another game and I put someone from Wilkes-barre in there. Don't care who as long as it isn't Picard. We lost with a $5 million guy who doesn't give a crap. Maybe one of the minor leaguers will and maybe we win because of it.
And this is everything that's wrong with even trying to discuss Paul Martin.

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04-13-2012, 02:19 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Watch the game tonight and count the number of times that puck gets dumped into Letang's corner vs Martin's corner. I'll save you the suspense: they aren't dumping it in Letang's corner anywhere near as often. The Flyers are neutralizing Letang by attacking Martin, because his compete isn't there, his footspeed has disappeared and his work ethic is something like Roger Dorn's from Major League.

We lose another game and I put someone from Wilkes-barre in there. Don't care who as long as it isn't Picard. We lost with a $5 million guy who doesn't give a crap. Maybe one of the minor leaguers will and maybe we win because of it.
To sum up the above Flyers' stratagy:


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04-13-2012, 02:19 PM
  #272
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There are a lot of plays to get pissed at Martin for, but that goal is definitely not one of them. Briere is a fast, skilled player. Martin kept him to the outside and then picked up a man. He played that pretty well IMO. That goal was as fluky as they come.
His job isn't to keep him to the outside there. A player starts angling behind the net to pick up speed, he's kept himself to the outside. Martin's job once Briere starts to do this is to stop him from picking up speed.

See this video



Forget that Green elbows the guy, because I want to point out what Orlov does: sees a forward building speed around the net and moves to put enough body on him to greatly slow his forward momentum so the guys on the other side don't get caught flatfooted against a player moving at high speed. If 19 year old Russian rookie defensemen knows this, Martin does as well. He just didn't feel like doing it. Took the easy way out of "token pressure". I'll say again: there is no "token pressure" in the playoffs.

It doesn't matter that the goal was fluky. Briere can make any number of plays coming out from behind the net with that much speed. Which is why you slow him down when you can. Martin could have and chose not to.

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04-13-2012, 02:20 PM
  #273
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And this is everything that's wrong with even trying to discuss Paul Martin.
Count the dumps then. Make me wrong. I won't be

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04-13-2012, 02:44 PM
  #274
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Count the dumps then. Make me wrong. I won't be
I don't think he was referencing your critique of the dump ins and Martin's work in the retrieval process.

I think he was criticizing your suggestion that you could pair Valabik or Picard with Letang without consequence, when clearly you meant to suggest they'd be upgrades.

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04-13-2012, 02:45 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
When Martin's on, he's an asset to the team and worth his contract. He's a good skater, solid positionally, has a smart stick, and moves the puck efficiently out of trouble in transition.

The problem is that those talents have been on display far too infrequently this year (including the game on Wednesday), and when he's not doing those things well, his total lack of physical engagement is glaring.
Bingo . . . 'when Martin's on' . . .

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