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Ryan Smyth... I see trouble ahead

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Old
04-12-2012, 10:41 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
No No, it is called the LTIR, really it has been done like a dozen times at least already. IF a player gets hurt he doesn't count against the cap. Every one knows the deal.
Your aware a player actually has to get injured for them to go on LTIR. You want to sign a 36 y/o winger to a 3 year deal hoping that the cap space could potentially be used when he gets injured?!

What happens if he stays completely healthy and plays the full 82 games (as he has done the past two seasons), but his game completely falls off the cliff? What then?

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If he wants 2.5 for 3 years he can walk. At 2 mill per year how is that going to stop us from signing any one? That is the point, that is peanuts. We aren't talking Horcoff 5.5 mill here, we are talking 2 mill.
It's not as simple as that. Apart from Horcoff, factor in Eberle and Hall both getting 6M cap hits next season, Petry getting a raise, Dubnyk getting a raise, all that money adds up quickly. Also add in us having to splurge in free agency, something past rebuilds have done.

The risk of signing Smyth to a multi-year deal comes from the fact that his type of game wears a body down quickly. Those types of games don't really have the graceful slowdown, imo they fall off a cliff.

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for the record I think the issue with horcoff is we didn't sign him long enough. If you are going to lock a guy up you may as well lock him up untill retirement. If we locked up Horc for 4 more years at a really low salary for the final 4 years of the deal, yes, untill he is 40, his cap hit would be more like 3.5 mill. Sill ugly, but all and all it would be a better situation.

The thing is every one criticizes me like I am crazy but that is what every GM in the league does. If you are going to lock some one up, you do it until retirement, Sedins, Kovy, ect ect ect, the list goes on. That is how you keep a cap low so you can sign guys like Hall, Nuge, Eberle ect....
I just disagree, because currently, I think we signed Horcoff for 2-3 years too long at this price.

Having Horcoff at this current level or worse until he retires?! I don't want that.

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04-12-2012, 10:43 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by dustrock View Post
Seems like the farther along we go from 2006, the less of a legacy Smyth has.

I think he tried this year and his compete level was one of the best for the vets, but he's been more about grit and heart than skill, and he just looks old and slow to me.

I don't know if I can watch another 2years of offsides and passes in the skates.
Don't forget his patented 40mph slapshot off the wing into the goalie's chest.

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04-12-2012, 10:43 PM
  #128
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the entire squad has to be able to skate or be pyhiscal or a remotely acceptable combination thereof....

Smyth was a travesty in that respect....he is a decent hockey player....but unable to contribute on a regular basis.

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04-12-2012, 10:54 PM
  #129
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This is so typical of the entitled pig at the trough known as Smyth. Every contract negotiation the same. Wants every last penny he can grovel for.
Ya think with all the $$ he has made and the fact Edmontn actually did him a favor by bringing him here in the offseason there would be a quid pro quo.
Not a chanve with this guy.
Oink oink

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04-12-2012, 10:54 PM
  #130
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Don't forget his patented 40mph slapshot off the wing into the goalie's chest.
Heh heh yeah. He and Horc are the best at this.

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04-12-2012, 11:00 PM
  #131
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Ryan Smyth, trouble ahead? Lol. Okay man. If he's gone, so be it. I love Smitty, always will (even though he was a bit of a dud in the playoffs, especially 06), but if he's asking for too much, bye bye. He shouldn't be entitled to anything. I don't care if the money doesn't matter with their cap situation either. The Oilers have Hartikainen and Paajarvi who are pretty close to being ready for the show, plus I'm not convinced he's good in a bottom 6 role either.

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04-12-2012, 11:00 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Mohaj View Post

Smyth was a travesty in that respect....he is a decent hockey player....but unable to contribute on a regular basis.
See that's something I disagree with.

Smyth has a place on most teams I imagine, but he has a certain role. Likely it's not an offensive one.

The guy is still good defensively and his board work is still above average. Chances are those skills will get him a job.

The biggest problem with him is if his skating deteriorates, then those skills will be limited in usefulness.

Especially if his body breaks down, and with his playing style, I don't think that would shock anyone.

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04-12-2012, 11:08 PM
  #133
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If he was being a leader maybe you keep him , but it is becoming painfully honest that the youth is leading the way. I think that once we draft yakupof one of horcoff, smyth or belanger need to go to make room maybe even two.

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04-12-2012, 11:09 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
See that's something I disagree with.

Smyth has a place on most teams I imagine, but he has a certain role. Likely it's not an offensive one.

The guy is still good defensively and his board work is still above average. Chances are those skills will get him a job.

The biggest problem with him is if his skating deteriorates, then those skills will be limited in usefulness.

Especially if his body breaks down, and with his playing style, I don't think that would shock anyone.
I'm not so sure. Even his bread-and-butter style, deflecting and banging in goals in front of the net, was abysmal in the 2nd half of the season.

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04-12-2012, 11:28 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Yeah he got paid 5 million a year for two years. Will you be happy to give Smyth that?

If they are offering him 2.5 mill for 2 years or something like that anyone is going to try and get more than that.

If you don't think the gross overpaying and worse yet playing time entitlement that Horcoff gets won't cause a problem or hasn't caused a problem your naive.

If the Oilers kicked Horcoff to the curb they'd have a lot more moral authority to be a bit more fiscally tight. I can't wait to see them try and get team friendly discounts from the young stars.

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04-12-2012, 11:32 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by TowMater14 View Post
If Smyth brings so much leadership, why has he never been a captain?
You do not require a letter on your sweater to be a leader.

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04-12-2012, 11:43 PM
  #137
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You do not require a letter on your sweater to be a leader.
No, but if he was a great leader he would have earned one.

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04-12-2012, 11:43 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Meister View Post
This is so typical of the entitled pig at the trough known as Smyth. Every contract negotiation the same. Wants every last penny he can grovel for.
Ya think with all the $$ he has made and the fact Edmontn actually did him a favor by bringing him here in the offseason there would be a quid pro quo.
Not a chanve with this guy.
Oink oink
You privy to the contract negotiations?

You really have no idea do you?

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Old
04-12-2012, 11:45 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TowMater14 View Post
No, but if he was a great leader he would have earned one.
Ethan Moreau had a letter. Was he a great leader?

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04-12-2012, 11:59 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
Your aware a player actually has to get injured for them to go on LTIR. You want to sign a 36 y/o winger to a 3 year deal hoping that the cap space could potentially be used when he gets injured?!

What happens if he stays completely healthy and plays the full 82 games (as he has done the past two seasons), but his game completely falls off the cliff? What then?



It's not as simple as that. Apart from Horcoff, factor in Eberle and Hall both getting 6M cap hits next season, Petry getting a raise, Dubnyk getting a raise, all that money adds up quickly. Also add in us having to splurge in free agency, something past rebuilds have done.

The risk of signing Smyth to a multi-year deal comes from the fact that his type of game wears a body down quickly. Those types of games don't really have the graceful slowdown, imo they fall off a cliff.



I just disagree, because currently, I think we signed Horcoff for 2-3 years too long at this price.

Having Horcoff at this current level or worse until he retires?! I don't want that.
The thing is how do players really evolve? How often do you see a player get old not get hurt and have his game just fall off a cliff? Really, it doesn't happen that often. Almost inevitably the player gets hurt, at a certian age all palyers are basically hurt all the time. that is why players retire, the only differnce is they just go on the LTIR, really it is a loophole, it has happend many times all ready. they just don't say they retire.

The thing is sure, we sign Hall, Nuge, Ebs ect for 6 mill each, so are you saying the rest of the team has to be 1 mill players? clearly there is still room and clearly you need a few players in there that are getting more than 1 mill a season.

That is not what I meant by horc, every one and their dog knows it is a horrble contract now. The question is when he signed it, when the oiler felt he was worth 5.5 mill for that many years. Why wouldn't they also think he was worth signing untill he is 40? It is always a risk, you always take a risk, short term long term!!! there is no way around the risk. So if you are going to bank on a player, play the smart money and shave down the cap hit by adding on low years at the end. That is what the smart GMs do. I am not making this up. Every team that has won the cup in the last few years has made moves just like that. Boston with Thomas and Savard come to mind. One risk worked the other didn't, same strategy.

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04-13-2012, 12:03 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Ethan Moreau had a letter. Was he a great leader?
Yes he was - he played the role of the pied piper and lead the team into the same cesspool his career was mired in.

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04-13-2012, 12:09 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by MrForever View Post
We should go next year with all young guys.

Let Smyth walk, waive Belanger, Eager and all that crap, roll with:

Hart-RNH-Yakupov
Hall-Gagner-Eberle
Paajarvi-Lander-Hemsky
Petrell-Horcoff-Jones

**** it why not right ahahahah
Some one Mentioned a great analogy.

XXX-RNH-Eberle slightly less productive version Gretzky-Kurri. They were protected.
XXX-Hall-Yakupov poorer version of messier-Anderson.

Ben eager has been a .95EVG/60 scorer the last 4 years.
Even scoring rate equal to Tavares, Marleau, Semin, Couture.
Stick that skating speed and nasty on the LW of RNH & Eberle.
Wantedd to see that all year.
80 games @14.15EMIN gets you 18-20EVG

Eric Belanger is the 7Th best PK center in the league.
Our PK went from 29th to 14th.
All that we need to Know.
Play him LW on 4th line. Go and get a strong face off (top 20) and Pk center to play on the fourth line with Belanger and Jones (gaustad, Stoll)

The best available UFA LW to face Toughs is Ryan Smyth.
So do not sign him to get some one worse for likely higher Cap?
Mike Modano 35+ contract was 3.5M per.
Smyth for 3M per for 2 yr.

MP on the left side of Hall

Eager-RNH-Eberle
MP-Hall-Yakupov
Smyth-XXX-Hemsky
Eager-Gaustad-Jones
Harti

All worried about Contract.
avares 6yr @ 5.5M
that is a 4.3M bump on Eberle and 1. 75M on Hall.
A 1.725M bump on RNH.
horcoffs 5.5 rolls off at Yakupov 5.5M signing.


Last edited by oilerbear: 04-13-2012 at 12:14 AM.
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04-13-2012, 12:14 AM
  #143
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I think part of the problem is that people expected Smytty to be rejuvinated playing with the kids and improve his point totals from previous years. He's declined since 2006, let's face it. He's still a useful veteran mentor for the kids and can play a bottom-6 role. The only reason I'd hesitate signing him is because of looming CBA negotiations. Could change the dynamics of the cap going forward and we don't want to be locked into a long-term deal with veterans that could limit our ability to re-sign our RFAs.

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04-13-2012, 12:20 AM
  #144
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I think part of the problem is that people expected Smytty to be rejuvinated playing with the kids and improve his point totals from previous years. He's declined since 2006, let's face it. He's still a useful veteran mentor for the kids and can play a bottom-6 role. The only reason I'd hesitate signing him is because of looming CBA negotiations. Could change the dynamics of the cap going forward and we don't want to be locked into a long-term deal with veterans that could limit our ability to re-sign our RFAs.
Ya, I agree with this. Well, I don't mind the longer term deal. you do make a good point about the CBA though, but, does any one think it will really change that much?

I think there were serious over expectations with Smyth and when he started strong that fuelled it. He is still a usefull player. We are not talking Horcoff here, I swear any vetran now is just assumed to be horcoff V 2.0. No one is saying lock him up to 5+ mill, but give the guy some security on a low cap hit and let him retire an oiler.

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04-13-2012, 12:25 AM
  #145
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I suppose that Smyth just figured that the Oilers would just shovel money his way. It's quite comical. Every comment that he made on garbage day was under the presumption that he'll be an Oiler next year. "We're not that far off yadda yadda yadda."

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04-13-2012, 12:31 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
I think part of the problem is that people expected Smytty to be rejuvinated playing with the kids and improve his point totals from previous years. He's declined since 2006, let's face it. He's still a useful veteran mentor for the kids and can play a bottom-6 role. The only reason I'd hesitate signing him is because of looming CBA negotiations. Could change the dynamics of the cap going forward and we don't want to be locked into a long-term deal with veterans that could limit our ability to re-sign our RFAs.
I would say that Smyth was rejuvenated with the kids based on his point totals playing with them. In the second half of the season he was moved off their line.

I do not believe that Smyth has the legs to be a top six performer however am amazed that he gets ragged for his second half...Gagner finished one point ahead of him and garnered a large chunk of his points in a "week from heaven". Gagner's last 20 games were forgetable.

If he asks for the stars, tell him to beat it. If we can sign him for a reasonable cap hit, I don't see how it would be a negative to have someone on the third line that can play the PK effectively.

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04-13-2012, 12:42 AM
  #147
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Ethan Moreau had a letter. Was he a great leader?
Touché!

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04-13-2012, 01:03 AM
  #148
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I could care less if smyth leaves. He is not an NHL player at this point, or at least not a top 6 player. The problem is he is slow, so I don't know which line he fits on. If he even looks the wrong way at the kids though, ship his ass to the ahl. This is not his team anymore, it is Hall's team.

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04-13-2012, 01:05 AM
  #149
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A la Hemsky, for a year or two I'd give him whatever he wanted. He'd be perfectly fine on the third line with Horcoff. It's not my money. Will we find anyone better in free agency? I bet the Kings miss him a bit right now.

This team doesn't have enough guys to score goals still (another reason to draft Yakupov) and no one on this team consistently scores them like Smyth taking a beating and being dirty in front of the net. He's still an important vet presence as well.

If we keep him though we have to be prepared for him going balls out at the beginning of the season and being bagged by February. If we're in contention reduce his time and not keep hammering him against the wall for 20 minutes a night. The dropoff in the second half the last few years has been stunning.

The only thing I'm a bit mad about is that if he was going to go hardball in negotiations and not just ride out his career for whatever the Oilers would pay him after his fat contract as it seemed like when things were all lovey dovey at the deadline then he should have let us trade him at the deadline. Probably coulda got a mid-late 2nd out of someone.


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04-13-2012, 01:10 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
I could care less if smyth leaves. He is not an NHL player at this point, or at least not a top 6 player. The problem is he is slow, so I don't know which line he fits on. If he even looks the wrong way at the kids though, ship his ass to the ahl. This is not his team anymore, it is Hall's team.
Hemsky and his contract is a much bigger problem for the team than Smyth will ever be.

If Ales cant get back to the production levels he enjoyed before he was hurt then he should be gone too, along with Smyth and Horcoff.

We dont have any room for passengers anymore.

Gagner can ride in the caboose.

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