If one of them plays on the third line, they're not being used in the most effective manner.
Here's where I disagree. Staal is IDEAL as the No. 3 center. I'll never waiver from this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boocock
Jordan Staal is a fantastic player and Top 6 centers have huge value on the market. Top 4 defensemen are also heavily coveted and our players are not cutting it. We have a valuable trade piece if we choose to use it.
There are less important players we could trade, too. He's too valuable to this team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boocock
And, honestly... Is Bylsma using these players in the most effective manner imaginable?
Neither Tangradi nor Despres will dress. BUT, what pisses me off is to think about what COULD have been real options if things had been handled differently during the regular season.
Nice note about Tangradi and the PP. He actually knows how to screen a goalie. And, it would be nice to see a net front presence actually screen a goalie on the PP as a one-timer is coming.
I think that is my biggest frustration with HCDB. We saw it last year with Tangradi, back to the pressbox after we score that sad lonely PP goal when he dressed for a suspended Kunitz. I can't fault a guy for dancing with who brought him to the dance, but when that doesn't work for mulitple consecutive games, maybe slight changes ( lineup) make sense where an overhaul (system) do not.
As a fan, I certainly don't know enough to say if he is unable to adjust in-game, or is he unwilling? I feel it's more of the latter, which while a problem, I don't know if it equates to being out-coached.
Laviolette certainly knows what's coming in the first 10-20 minutes of the game, it's happened about 4 straight matchups now. Him calling the timeout isn't some magic potion. Hell in the last two games, we've scored again after the timeout was called. Which screams to me it's execution in the final 40 minutes, not an inability to adjust to changes the Flyers make at the intermission. If Lavs was that superior, he's countering what he knows is coming from the opening faceoff.
Here's where I disagree. Staal is IDEAL as the No. 3 center. I'll never waiver from this point.
Well, then I have to ask this question.
Is it that Jordan Staal is most effective as the third line center or on a shutdown line? And, if it is the latter, would a stacked first line of Malkin - Crosby - Neal and a second line of Kunitz - Staal - Dupuis, a line with a responsible-y defensive winger in Kunitz, a Selke Finalist and Top 6 producer in Staal, and a highly defensively responsible winger with speed in Dupuis function effectively? Could we have our cake and eat it too? Because, honestly, Malkin and Crosby only seem to have a problem playing together on the power play.
That's next season at the earliest, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
There are less important players we could trade, too. He's too valuable to this team.
Who do you have in mind?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
Nope, hence the talk of replacing him.
Fair enough. Could you name a coach that would use these players in a more effective manner please? I'm simply interesting in hearing your thoughts on this matter.
I think that is my biggest frustration with HCDB. We saw it last year with Tangradi, back to the pressbox after we score that sad lonely PP goal when he dressed for a suspended Kunitz. I can't fault a guy for dancing with who brought him to the dance, but when that doesn't work for mulitple consecutive games, maybe slight changes ( lineup) make sense where an overhaul (system) do not.
As a fan, I certainly don't know enough to say if he is unable to adjust in-game, or is he unwilling? I feel it's more of the latter, which while a problem, I don't know if it equates to being out-coached.
Laviolette certainly knows what's coming in the first 10-20 minutes of the game, it's happened about 4 straight matchups now. Him calling the timeout isn't some magic potion. Hell in the last two games, we've scored again after the timeout was called. Which screams to me it's execution in the final 40 minutes, not an inability to adjust to changes the Flyers make at the intermission. If Lavs was that superior, he's countering what he knows is coming from the opening faceoff.
If the other coach knows what you're going to do and schemes for it such that his players can 'cheat' (i.e., can play what they know you'll do and don't have to worry about alternatives) and, as a result, your players start at a competitive disadvantage, then you're being out-coached whether the refusal to adjust is about ability or willingness.
Martin St. Louis was killing us last spring because he was often out there against our third defense pairing. It happened again last night on the Jagr goal.
That's coaching.
Pretty sure the third pairing iced the puck and Laviolette threw out his big line. Not what I would call a coaching failure from Bylsma.
I think that is my biggest frustration with HCDB. We saw it last year with Tangradi, back to the pressbox after we score that sad lonely PP goal when he dressed for a suspended Kunitz. I can't fault a guy for dancing with who brought him to the dance, but when that doesn't work for mulitple consecutive games, maybe slight changes ( lineup) make sense where an overhaul (system) do not.
As a fan, I certainly don't know enough to say if he is unable to adjust in-game, or is he unwilling? I feel it's more of the latter, which while a problem, I don't know if it equates to being out-coached.
Laviolette certainly knows what's coming in the first 10-20 minutes of the game, it's happened about 4 straight matchups now. Him calling the timeout isn't some magic potion. Hell in the last two games, we've scored again after the timeout was called. Which screams to me it's execution in the final 40 minutes, not an inability to adjust to changes the Flyers make at the intermission. If Lavs was that superior, he's countering what he knows is coming from the opening faceoff.
That's kinda my beef with some of these arguments.
Anyone who's played sports at a decent level knows that at the start of the game, no matter how bad you've played previously, you look at the start of another game as a new beginning.
In your head, your thinking you're going to do everything right this time, and no more **** ups. You're going to follow your coach's instructions and in the end, you're going to come out with the win.
These first periods are like that. They're coming out and executing, and Laviolette's team has had no answer for the first 20 minutes, and like you said, it's not like he's NOT prepared for what's coming. No matter how confident he is in his team's ability to fight back, no coach in his right mind wants to start behind the eight ball. Whatever his plans are, they aren't working at the start.
Then the second things get ramped up, you start seeing the flaws on our team, especially defensively. It's like they forget what to do and basically start relying more on instinct instead of making the right play. Guys like Martin and Michalek LOOK like they're overmatched, and are the furthest thing from "warriors" like Scuds or Gill, which is what you need in the playoffs.
I'm going to do a 50/50 split in blaming the players and the staff. Everyone knows my beefs with this roster by now, so I won't get into that. As for the coaching, the stretch pass is simply retarded. As someone mentioned on a blog I read, it's less of a pass than "a clearing attempt in the direction of a cluster of bodies", which IMO is a brilliant description of that play.
As for matchups? I don't know, I'm the type who feels that there's some overcoaching going on when guys obsessively try to get certain players out against certain others. It can often be disruptive and get a lot of players off their rythym, as we saw with Zetterberg a few years ago. Sometimes, you have to have your best players be your best players, especially with the ones we've got where there's really no excuse for Malkin to be outplayed by some kid.
Having said that, there was a stubbornness with Bylsma last night that really irked me where he kept putting Malkin out against Couturier. Sometimes, even though something SHOULDN'T be working and there's no rhyme or reason to it (Makin being shut down by a teen), it is what it is. Get him out there against someone else and make Laviolette scramble like he did on the opening faceoff where he got burned.
We've seen improvement from him every year though, so hopefully WHEN we lose he'll be willing to evolve a little more, assuming he still has a job.
Watching this Chicago game is the exact reason why I want to call out our stretch pass.
If you watch Phoenix, they pass in layers. Every time they hit a new layer, the opposing defense has to step up and they leave their spot. What Phoenix does is keep sending waves of forecheckers and keep attacking north. They almost always have a race to a loose puck.
Now on the flip side - if they were to stretch pass, the defender doesn't have to leave his spot. That pass is coming so fast and our wingers have no speed. They can stand in their spot with good gap and just watch Pittsburgh dump it in with no speed. The puck just basically gets iced and they can regroup because no way we can catch up to it.
I'm in favor of tightening things up defensively. Obviously our defensive zone coverage is flawed. It's definitely a 50/50 though.
The man-to-man system is suppose to prevent scrambling, but that's all I see from the Penguins defense. It's also suppose to take away time and space, I have yet to see it against the Flyers.
My biggest beef with the M-to-M system is it basically pigeon-holes lesser defenseman like Ben Lovejoy and Deryk Engelland against team's top lines. This happened a lot so far in this series and we've seen it happen in last year's playoffs as well. Although Bylsma wasn't fully using the man-to-man system, he was testing it here and there and it was definitely prevalent in the playoffs against Tampa.
We've seen at points how good the Penguins defensive system can be, when it's played to a tee. On the other hand, we've seen what happens when that doesn't happen.
It's a nice experiment, but so far it's proven to be flawed. Laviolette is basically exposing our third pairing. That being said, not one of our defenseman yet has looked good or comfortable within this system. It requires very good chemistry and communication, how many times have we seen a lack of that this season?
The zone coverage the Penguins used last season wasn't that flawed. Although it gave teams more time and space, it seemed as if the defense was more comfortable with it (Obviously, most teams use zone coverage). Especially last year when the Penguins were boasting a line-up of rookies and career AHLers.
Martin and Michalek looked great in last year's zone coverage system, the Penguins were one of the better defensive teams coming down the stretch last season. Probably because Martin and Michalek feel more comfortable playing within them.
Watching this Chicago game is the exact reason why I want to call out our stretch pass.
If you watch Phoenix, they pass in layers. Every time they hit a new layer, the opposing defense has to step up and they leave their spot. What Phoenix does is keep sending waves of forecheckers and keep attacking north. They almost always have a race to a loose puck.
Now on the flip side - if they were to stretch pass, the defender doesn't have to leave his spot. That pass is coming so fast and our wingers have no speed. They can stand in their spot with good gap and just watch Pittsburgh dump it in with no speed. The puck just basically gets iced and they can regroup because no way we can catch up to it.
Yotes move to Quebec this offseason. Tippett doesn't want to go. Becomes HC of the Pens, brings Dave King with him.
I'll give DB another year. What he did through all the injuries is admirable. Factor in Shero's style and I'd say he's safe for now.
But I'd give my left nut for Tippett coaching our stars.
I still think Shero is going to have a rather unpleasant next meeting with Burkle and Mario. They're not going to want to hear 'Martin overboard, otherwise status quo'. If DB gets another year, then I can't see it being with these assistants and no system changes.
Trust me - those two names and we don't even need Shane Doan.
Those two guys and this talent would be too good to be true.
Anyone wondering if the regressions in Staal's and Malkin's defensive games were a question of individual complacency or coaching would get a real quick answer from Tippett and King.
He's a good coach, look what he's achieved this season? hell the other seasons too...also won Jack Adams for a good reason. But....he's not very smart. Example the "no calling timeouts", unable to adjust. He's been around for 3 years at the NHL level, he needs to start learning.
As long as Dan Bylsma is coach of the Penguins, the Penguins will NOT have the structural/positional confidence that teams like New Jersey, Boston, and Detroit have exhibited.
We have 3 coaches, possibly four in the Atlantic division who can give their teams a stronger foundation and ability to adjust than what Pittsburgh gets in their coaching staff.
Dan is lucky to have a few of the better players in the league on his team. But Dan simply doesn't offer enough at the NHL level. Also, Dan was lucky to have had Michel Therrien's team in 2009 with Gill, Scuderi, and Talbot to bail his ass out. oh, and Petr Sykora... who btw, apparently didn't care for Dan's system either.
Yotes move to Quebec this offseason. Tippett doesn't want to go. Becomes HC of the Pens, brings Dave King with him.
Would Lemieux ever hire King though?
Quote:
Although he played in the 1983 World Junior Hockey Championships, Lemieux did not play for the Canadian Juniors in 1984 because he disliked how coach Dave King treated him in the previous tournament.[12] He also did not want to break up his junior season.[8]
I'll give DB another year. What he did through all the injuries is admirable. Factor in Shero's style and I'd say he's safe for now.
But I'd give my left nut for Tippett coaching our stars.
The Flyers could blow us out 10-0 in game 4, and DB's job would still be just as safe as it was at the beginning of the season. You can't overlook the fact that he's still managed to work wonders with a team that has been dessimated by injuries over the last couple of seasons, and of course the fact that we won a cup under him. Combine that with the fact that Shero is probably the most patient GM in the league, then its safe to say that DB is here to stay. Only way he's shown the door is if we're on the playoff bubble come February, as was the case with MT.
The Flyers could blow us out 10-0 in game 4, and DB's job would still be just as safe as it was at the beginning of the season. You can't overlook the fact that he's still managed to work wonders with a team that has been dessimated by injuries over the last couple of seasons, and of course the fact that we won a cup under him. Combine that with the fact that Shero is probably the most patient GM in the league, then its safe to say that DB is here to stay. Only way he's shown the door is if we're on the playoff bubble come February, as was the case with MT.
Every first round exit costs this franchise money. Millions of dollars in lost revenue. In the end, this is a business. Add in the appearance of him having lost the team ... if we're swept and HCDB still has his job, his assistants won't and will be replaced by guys chosen by the front office ... and Bylsma himself will be on a very short leash.
Every first round exit costs this franchise money. Millions of dollars in lost revenue. In the end, this is a business. Add in the appearance of him having lost the team ... if we're swept and HCDB still has his job, his assistants won't and will be replaced by guys chosen by the front office ... and Bylsma himself will be on a very short leash.
That's possible, but I don't know if it will happen.
The thing that pisses me off the most is that Bylsma really doesn't act like he cares in post game interviews. I know being calm and collected can be a good thing and I appreciate that about him, but your team is down 3-0 with their back against the wall and have given up 20 goals. Call your team out. Show some damn emotion. What have you got to lose?
Bylsma is overly loyal to his veterans and doesn't hold them very accountable, imo.
Fleury gives up 5 in game one, 7 in game two and 6 in game 3 before he finally pulls him. The second Fleury let that first horrendous goal in yesterday he should have been yanked. DB should also have healthy scratched one of his D-Men by now. You hold them accountable by taking them out if they play poorly. These guys know they can play horrendous and he's still going to play them. That's not accountability.
Bylsma is overly loyal to his veterans and doesn't hold them very accountable, imo.
Fleury gives up 5 in game one, 7 in game two and 6 in game 3 before he finally pulls him. The second Fleury let that first horrendous goal in yesterday he should have been yanked. DB should also have healthy scratched one of his D-Men by now. You hold them accountable by taking them out if they play poorly. These guys know they can play horrendous and he's still going to play them. That's not accountability.
True but what options did he really have with Fleury? You are basically saying you're willing to throw the game away to send a message to the team when you put in Johnson. I don't disagree though it's just a tough situation when the likelihood of your back up coming in and getting the win is slim.
