none of the coaches in this league in the recent history have had a chance to have two best players in the world on the same team. That is something that DB has and will continue to have so his bar will be set up higher than anyone elses.
Except he really hasn't had the two best players in the world consistently for the last two seasons. He's been coaching a mishmashed lineup full of injuries and moving parts, yet the team still produces.
I really wish people would remember how ****ing terrible Fleury was against Montreal and stop using that as any sort of example as to how Bylsma was outsmarted. Or we could just watch the YT video of Sid basically telling reporters after game 7 "I don't know how your strategy can be to be outchanced 2 to 1 every game..."
Special teams cost us last year, which is why I can't stand listening to the monday morning reasons why we lost to Tampa. Zone entry was never a problem during that series, as about 65% of those games were spent in Tampa's zone.
Also, I think Mark Letestu and a now NHL jettisoned Alex Kovalev being on the first line was the main culprit.
If we're going to play this game, there's no reason why Detroit shouldn't be winning Cups every year with the team they have. I'm also wondering where Babcock's adjustments are on the road when his team has the WORST road record of all the playoff teams, and why oh why their record is terrible with Nick Lidstrom out of the lineup.
Wow. I'll trade my coach for yours any day. Sabres nation wants Lindy Ruff fired in the worst way, and for good reason. These things you are complaining about seem to be sketchy. "He sat on the lead". I doubt he told his players to play a careful game against one of the greatest come-from-behind teams of the decade.
The players let you down, not the coach. A coaches' job is to motivate and inspire his team to play hard, and as far as I'm concerned Danny B (not Danny Briere, who should still be a Sabre) is the best.
Hopefully Shero feels the way you guys do and is dumb enough to fire him. We could use Bylsma in Buffalo.
So let's just throw out his Cup victory because, well, **** that guy, that's why. - KIRK
The problem with people like you is that you can't look past that Cup win, which by the way is farther and farther in the rear view mirror every year we don't do jack in the playoffs. The guy was exactly what we needed at the time, but I don't think he's that great of a coach, at least for this team. I don't think he's a "bad" coach, I just don't know if how he's going about things is optimal. Whatever. Our system is infallible, Bylsma is a quiet genius, etc. etc. I'm used to the fact that people on this board value grinding out loser points and OT wins when we have injuries more than they value bringing it consistently against good teams and making an impact in the playoffs. Same underdog BS that permeates the entire board.
I just don't know if how he's going about things is optimal..
This is entirely the point. This this this.
Criticizing HCDB and trying to see where we can improve isn't saying we should fire him or that he is the worst coach ever or whatever. Playing the "is head coach X better or worse than Bylsma?" game is also missing the point - the point is, "what are we doing wrong, and how do we fix it?" Being hyper defensive about the team, the coach, and the rest of the staff doesn't actually help find a solution to what are obvious problems.
There are things that have obviously not been working for a long time. For some reason, we can't figure out how to use Sid and Geno on the same PP unit, or run a good PP in general. For some reason, an on-paper elite D unit consistently looks shoddy. For some reason we seem to let a lot of teams come back late - it's not as if this game 1 is the only time that's happened this year. It's not an epidemic but it happens enough to make you wonder if there's a specific cause.
It is not the end of the world to admit these things are true, that Bylsma is not perfect and that we can improve things. Overreacting is bad, sure, and there are some people that have overreacted, but there are others who simply want to see us be the best we can be - and system changes are part of that. Eventually the issues above need to be resolved, one way or another. I hope it's under Bylsma that we see that happen. It needs to happen though - hopefully soon - and I hope that the coaching staff see the same things a lot of us do.
All teams have problems that need to be fixed. There's not a team in the league that can say they are without fault. The team that gets to spend some time with the Cup is generally the one that has the least obvious flaws, and manages to mitigate or compensate for its faults the best. We know what ours are, and we just have to hope that they get covered as best they can. Pretending they don't exist or that some things are just flukes, however, is just asking to be disappointed over and over.
I think it's important to take a step back and see what we have. Not to say "this guy sucks" or "he's coached us out of the playoffs two years in a row" or anything that other people have said, but to in general see where his weak points are and if there's hope of overcoming them. For me, this was simply an exercise in laying out all my thoughts on what kind of coach Bylsma is, how it affects how we play, and where the team goes from here. Certainly not to say "we should fire him" or anything like that. This loss is just an opportunity to reflect.
That's fine. Unfortunately with this thread comes a lot of unwarranted criticism from people like KIRK, and that's why I intervened.
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Second, Fitzgerald had a pretty big influence on the system that year, which isn't there now. So, it's unfair to completely discount 2009 but it's also something that needs to be put in context overall.
How do we know how much of an influence he or anybody else had? All we can do is infer. To me, it's clear that most of the influence was from Bylsma based on how similar we play as a team from then to now.
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Originally Posted by KIRK
My 'lofty standards' are to have a coach who's a game day tactician and bench boss worthy of this teams talents, and I appreciate that you ignored how Bylsma has been neither the last three playoffs.
Having the reputation of a game day tactician supercedes playoff results now? I find that hard to believe. In fact I bet that if you were a Preds fan you would be among his biggest critics over on their board for his lack of playoff success. And you'd probably have wanted Torts fired after his lackluster regular season / playoff results with the Rangers. If Bylsma wasn't our coach for you to nitpick every detail you'd probably be ecstatic about the thought of bringing him in. I hate to break it to you, but the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
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I'll just put it out there for everyone else to reply: AS A PLAYOFF COACH WITH THE TEAMS BYLSMA HAD THE LAST TWO PLAYOFFS, WOULD THE FIVE COACHES LISTED ABOVE HAVE GOTTEN MORE OR LESS OUT OF THE TEAM? WOULD THEY HAVE BARELY GOTTEN BY OTTAWA BEFORE LOSING TO MONTREAL IN 2010. INJURIES OR NO, WOULD THEY HAVE BLOWN A 3-1 LEAD AGAINST TAMPA. WOULD THEY BE COACHING THE PENS AGAINST THE FLYERS, TACTICALLY AND IN TERMS OF LINE MATCHING AT HOME AND USING THE TEAM'S STARS, AS BYLSMA DID?
Would Bylsma have one playoff series win in 12 years with the Preds? Would he have done better than Torts, Hitch, and Tippett who are a combined 1-10 in the first round since the lockout?
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44
The problem with people like you is that you can't look past that Cup win, which by the way is farther and farther in the rear view mirror every year we don't do jack in the playoffs. The guy was exactly what we needed at the time, but I don't think he's that great of a coach, at least for this team. I don't think he's a "bad" coach, I just don't know if how he's going about things is optimal. Whatever. Our system is infallible, Bylsma is a quiet genius, etc. etc. I'm used to the fact that people on this board value grinding out loser points and OT wins when we have injuries more than they value bringing it consistently against good teams and making an impact in the playoffs. Same underdog BS that permeates the entire board.
I'm not bringing up the Cup to validate Bylsma. There are countless other objective measures that show his value as coach, whether it be his underlying numbers, his results without his superstars, or whatever else you want to look at. I only bring up the Cup because people are trying to pretend it never happened, or that it was ancient history and that he's failed countless times since. Wrong. I'll reiterate - he has had a healthy team ONCE after winning the Cup, and his coaching decisions are well down on the list of reasons why we lost to Montreal. Now is his second real opportunity to make noise following our Cup win. He hasn't exactly gotten off to a great start, but unlike others here I'm not quite ready to jump off a bridge and start putting heads on the chopping block. How quickly some of us forget the adversity we had to overcome when winning it all in 09. This **** isn't supposed to be easy.
With that said, I'm not even going to pretend that I'd entertain the thought of looking for another coach if we went down in flames in the first round. He's objectively better than all but perhaps a handful of coaches. Sometimes you just run into another really good team and the breaks go against you. **** happens. It just so happens that favorites in the NHL are only slight favorites in comparison to other major sports. There's a ridiculous amount of luck involved that determines winners and losers and it's greater than any narrative that some journalist can come up with to explain why one team goes home and the other doesn't. I've accepted that a long time ago. It's time for some of you to do the same.
I like Dan Bylsma. There are few coaches I'd take over him. He's consistent. What he was able to pull off last season was pretty incredible.
I'd take Joel Quenneville, Dave Tippett, Claude Julien, and Mike Babcock over Bylsma. That's it, really. Of course, I'm happy with our coach. He's the only one that's stuck with the Pens for this long and I think that's something we should remember.
I don't know about Claude but other than that this is exactly how I feel. Unfortunately, if there's one flaw of the Pittsburgh fan, it's their eagerness to eat their coaches. It's sort of like Philly and goaltenders.
Wow. I'll trade my coach for yours any day. Sabres nation wants Lindy Ruff fired in the worst way, and for good reason. These things you are complaining about seem to be sketchy. "He sat on the lead". I doubt he told his players to play a careful game against one of the greatest come-from-behind teams of the decade.
The players let you down, not the coach. A coaches' job is to motivate and inspire his team to play hard, and as far as I'm concerned Danny B (not Danny Briere, who should still be a Sabre) is the best.
Hopefully Shero feels the way you guys do and is dumb enough to fire him. We could use Bylsma in Buffalo.
Thank you. I've experienced first hand how much it blows other team's fan's minds when I tell them that there are Pens fans who think Bylsma is incompetent.
Since "Disco Dan" took over as coach in 2010 the Pens record on home ice in the playoffs is 4-8 with two Game 7 losses thrown in there. That isn't a sign of a good coach but of one that is probably over his head at this level of hockey.
That is the most telling statistic that there is. If the Penguins bow out this round, fairly or unfaily, Disco Dan is out.
Coaches are hired to be fired. Bottom line. Another first round loss and it'd become food for thought for Shero, me thinks.
Of course, with Disco's can-do-no-wrong reputation, we might even be able to get a first round lottery pick for him if we traded him.
I'm half-kidding. But you never want to become a regular-season coach, and that's where this is going if we can't knock out Philly.
The Cup is great on his resume, but it didn't prevent Laviolette from being canned in Carolina. Or Carlyle in Anaheim. Or Torts in Tampa. Hell, Mike Babcock will be fired one day, too. Book it.
I certainly don't want this org to make excuses every year for its coach the way Buffalo does with theirs. Bylsma's a good coach. So if Lindy Ruff. Hell, if you're a head coach in the NHL you're probably a good coach. But this is big business and this is the big leagues. When expectations are at their highest, and in Pittsburgh they are, you need results.
That is the most telling statistic that there is. If the Penguins bow out this round, fairly or unfaily, Disco Dan is out.
In the 2009 playoffs we went 9-2 at home. Need something more recent? This year we were +43 on home ice, finishing second to Detroit in that category and, overall, finished with the best home record in the Eastern Conference.
But no, that cherrypicked 4-8 record is indisputable evidence that Bylsma can't coach at home.
The Cup is great on his resume, but it didn't prevent Laviolette from being canned in Carolina. Or Carlyle in Anaheim. Or Torts in Tampa. Hell, Mike Babcock will be fired one day, too. Book it.
When Bylsma struggles to get this team into the playoffs, then you can use those coaches as examples. But not until then.
Really? Did those coaches have Crosby and Malkin on the same team?
Sorry, but the bar is a LOT higher for Disco because every other coach would kill to have Disco's roster.
Bylsma has done more with a lot less than Laviolette, Torts, and Carlyle had when they were fired, so I don't want to hear that. Bylsma wins with whatever roster he has.
Bylsma has done more with a lot less than Laviolette, Torts, and Carlyle had when they were fired, so I don't want to hear that. Bylsma wins with whatever roster he has.
Don't you think Bylsma shines when he has less talent and more adversity?
In the 2009 playoffs we went 9-2 at home. Need something more recent? This year we were +43 on home ice, finishing second to Detroit in that category and, overall, finished with the best home record in the Eastern Conference.
But no, that cherrypicked 4-8 record is indisputable evidence that Bylsma can't coach at home.
I tend to attribute more weight to a statistic that is based on a larger sample size. If, and I mean If, the Penguins were to bow out in the first round, they would obviously not have a winning home record. That would make three consecutive years of failure on home ice; that clearly outweighs, in my opinion, a one year run.
Don't you think Bylsma shines when he has less talent and more adversity?
This team has had flat out dominant stretches when healthy since the Cup run, so I don't buy that one bit. It just so happens that Bylsma is able to make due with injuries that other coaches couldn't overcome. He certainly looks better when he succeeds with less talent, but every coach is viewed that way which is why guys like Trotz and Tippett are golden gods on HF despite constant playoff failures.
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Originally Posted by Richard
I tend to attribute more weight to a statistic that is based on a larger sample size. If, and I mean If, the Penguins were to bow out in the first round, they would obviously not have a winning home record. That would make three consecutive years of failure on home ice; that clearly outweighs, in my opinion, a one year run.
Being able to coach on the road is nearly as important as on the road, so I'm not sure why the arbitrary distinction of needing a good home record is needed. I'm sure the majority of coaches over the last few years would have either an unflattering home or away playoff record if you were to isolate them. I'm not worried one bit about our ability to win on home ice given what I cited earlier. Overreacting to small sample sizes is about the worst thing any GM can do, and that's essentially what you and others are advocating here. Shero is smarter than that, which is why I will bet any amount of money that Bylsma would remain our coach if we were to lose against the Flyers.
I've always heard it said that it takes 3 years of consistent effort/work to master something. There have been aspects of HCDB coaching style/system that I have concerns about, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I've also commented that he's still in the learning curve, but that time is coming to a close. That's not to say that anyone stops learning, but at some point there has to be a cut off for mastery and that time is approaching.
I do have concerns. It concerns me that this team is unable to hold a lead. When they get up by two or three goals, they let off the gas. If the entire team is letting up, either the directive is coming from the bench or the bench doesn't really have control of the team. How many times this year have they let a lead slip away, then be forced to make a Herculean effort to come back? Nothing wrong with building a lead and then protecting it, but the system isn't set up that way. And, yes, I have concerns about the system itself. One defenseman having an off season can, and does, happen ... but when it's three out of six? There are exploitable flaws in the system. No system is perfect. But when the same teams work the system against us again and again because no adjustments have been made that's a problem.
I'm pretty much in the camp of 'he's not a bad coach but he's not a great one'. Usually. There has been a time or two that I've strayed into the fire Bylsma camp, but I never stay for very long. Everyone goes through growing pains on their way to mastery.
Wow. I'll trade my coach for yours any day. Sabres nation wants Lindy Ruff fired in the worst way, and for good reason. These things you are complaining about seem to be sketchy. "He sat on the lead". I doubt he told his players to play a careful game against one of the greatest come-from-behind teams of the decade.
The players let you down, not the coach. A coaches' job is to motivate and inspire his team to play hard, and as far as I'm concerned Danny B (not Danny Briere, who should still be a Sabre) is the best.
Hopefully Shero feels the way you guys do and is dumb enough to fire him. We could use Bylsma in Buffalo.
Bylsma has done more with a lot less than Laviolette, Torts, and Carlyle had when they were fired, so I don't want to hear that. Bylsma wins with whatever roster he has.
Are you referring to last year? I take a bit of an issue with that for this reason: Last year was awesome for Bylsma's resume, but for what this organization hopes to achieve it's basically a non-factor. He deserved the Jack Adams as much as anyone last year, but we want Cups at the end of the day. Again, great performance while short the two best players in the world, but that was last year. In short, I'm concerned with what he does with THIS roster, not a short-handed one that understandably has no Cup hopes. Plus you have to admit, they blew a 3-1 series lead and didn't win a round. Facts.
It's about winning in the postseason. I'd hope to hell that, even without Crosby or Malkin, we could make the playoffs with just one of them, Staal, Letang, Fleury, and Neal. That's more than half the teams in the league have right there talent-wise and the rest of the roster is solid in a Rangers-esque way.
So now what? Well we pretty much have the roster everyone's wanted for the last few years. Time to make serious runs. I'm not asking for the Finals every year or something that's just impossible. As you said somewhere else, it's not easy and it takes luck too. That said it's been 3 years. Time to be a relevant playoff team. We've got a roster anyone would kill for and it's not getting any better considering the salary cap. No more excuses.
