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Subban was the 30th best point producing defenceman last season, and the 28th ranked defenceman in terms of points this year. When you then look at the fact that he is a well rounded defenceman who blocks shots, hits, has great speed, offensive flair AND shuts down the opposition's best lines on a regular basis while being the #1 defenceman on our team, you should kind of get the idea that he is already a #1 defenceman in this league. Did I mention he is one of the best agitators in the league and draws a ton of penalties? I don't see how you rate him as a 30-40 defenceman "eventually" while labeling him a #2 defenceman. Are you saying he is going to get worse as he ages?
As a comparable, look at the leading point producing defenceman, Karlsson. He has significantly less hits, less blocked shots, and is not an agitator. Karlsson is better at producing points, but Subban is more well rounded. The same is true of many of the defencemen who scored more than Subban. So, while Subban is only ranked 28th in terms of producing points, when you compare him to other PMD ranked higher for the number of points they score (such as Leddy or Yandle), he comes out looking better because of his entire defensive game. A defenceman who produces points is great. A defenceman who produces points AND plays good defence is even better. At this point in time, Subban is already ranked in the 20-30 range, NOT the 30-40 range. I look forward to seeing him break into the 10-20 range in the next couple of years, to be quite honest.
No, I don't think he'll get any worse, I do think he will improve some. But there's more to being a dman than just points, so if he's 28th scoring, it doesn't mean he's the 28th best dman. So some guys behind him in points are better all around dmen than he is, and I'm sure some guys ahead of him in points, aren't as good of a dman as he is. Plus, every year there are new dmen that enter the league and improve. Look, I like PK a lot, I just don't see him as an all-star, elite dman. I see his top end as a lower end number one dman, which is is still really good, top 30 in the whole league, I just don't see him as top 12 to 15. That being said, I'd still love him on my team, I like how he plays, I like passion, the only thing I think he is missing from his game is poise and responsibility. Maybe he will gain these over the years with some more experience, you never know. I am far from bashing him, just because I don't see him in the same group with Weber, Pronger, Suter, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Chara, Myers, Karlsson, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Edler, Boyle, Bieksa, Yandle, Letang, Keith, Kronwall, Lidstrom, etc., it doesn't mean that I'm not a huge fan of the guy. Taylor Hall is my favourite hockey player, do I think he's one the best 5 LW in the league, nope. Not yet at least. But, Subban is still young, he could take that next step, you never know, I'd be very happy if he did.
As for how this relates to Yakupov, IMO, I feel Yakupov has a better chance of being an elite (top 5) RWer, than PK has of becoming an elite dman (top 5). That being said, I'd love for them both to be Oilers, PK would easily be Edmonton's best dman, by quite a bit. But I don't blame the Habs for not wanting to deal him, top 30 (number 1) dmen to not grow on trees.
Yakupov and Paajarvi are two wingers, which are much less needed commodities on Montreal than what they would loose in that deal: a potential 1st line centre and their best D (who's still in his early 20's).
Montreal fans consider Subban as their #1 already and Murray definitely has the upside to be a #1 D. Whether you agree with me/us or not, you're kind of stating the best possible scenario for Yakupov and the medium-to-worst possible one for both Subban and Murray. Doesn't work like that when you're trying to solidify an argument.
I feel there is a big underestimating of the centres Montreal already has. I think if we draft Galchenyuk he'll end up being Eller's winger for the next 5 years or so, which is fine by me.
I think we need 2 top 6 wingers and a #2 or #3 d-man in this draft, UFA or by trade. That's what I'm hoping for, anyways.
If you're Edmonton, I guess it depends what appeals more to you. A lineup that looks like this:
Hall-RNH-Eberle
Yakupov-Gagner-Hemsky
Whitney-Smid (assuming here, not sure what EDM's top pairing is when healthy)
or
Hall-RNH-Eberle
MPS-Gagner-Hemsky (again, assuming, MPS might not ACTUALLY be EDM's 2nd line LW right now, just needed to fit him in there)
Whitney/Smid-Subban
Smid/Whitney-Murray
That being said, I don't think either team does this. I did see an interesting tweet from an Edmonton-based radio host asking if you (Oilers fans) would trade 1st OV for Subban straight up.
Our top D pairing, as sad as it is, was...
Smid and Petry, which is a solid 3/4, but not a very good number 1/2. Subban would be our best dman, and Murray, from all reports I've seen projects to be a solid 2/3. Unfortunately, he is at least a couple years from getting to that point. Dmen take time to develop. I've stated it before, I like PK a lot, but I don't feel his high end potential is as high as Yakupov's is, so therefore, I would not make that trade, I just feel giving up on Yakupov is too big of a gamble, unless the package offered for him, blows us away. Something like...
Pietrangelo straight up.
or
Karlsson straight up.
or
Weber (signed for at least 6 years)
These are all very unlikely to happen, but if they were out there, then of course Edmonton would take them. I really don't see any team willing to offer enough that Edmonton will deal the pick.
Look, I like PK a lot, I just don't see him as an all-star, elite dman. I see his top end as a lower end number one dman, which is is still really good, top 30 in the whole league, I just don't see him as top 12 to 15. That being said, I'd still love him on my team, I like how he plays, I like passion, the only thing I think he is missing from his game is poise and responsibility. Maybe he will gain these over the years with some more experience, you never know. I am far from bashing him, just because I don't see him in the same group with Weber, Pronger, Suter, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Chara, Myers, Karlsson, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Edler, Boyle, Bieksa, Yandle, Letang, Keith, Kronwall, Lidstrom, etc., it doesn't mean that I'm not a huge fan of the guy. Taylor Hall is my favourite hockey player, do I think he's one the best 5 LW in the league, nope. Not yet at least. But, Subban is still young, he could take that next step, you never know, I'd be very happy if he did.
I'd really like to know what you mean in the bolded, can you elaborate please. Poise and responsibility? I think he has plenty of both.
He was an all-star everywhere he played, in every league, except for the NHL. Still made the rookie all-star game last year. So I expect him to become a regular in the big show starting as soon as next season.
Like it's already been mentioned, he is by far and large our #1 defenseman this season. A +9 on a bottom feeder team with 36 points and a 119 PIM is amazing for a 22 year old that seemingly does everything for this team and plays the most minutes on top of it. If there are 30 #1 defensemen in the league, he as a lower end d-man would be 30-20 or something like that? Well he's already there and then some. Top 12-15 is not out of the question and I will venture as far as saying he will be much more than that during his peak years.
And out of the names you listed, I suppose that is your top 18 defenseman? I'd take Subban over Myers Byfuglien Enstrom Boyle Bieksa and Kronwall. Most of them rather easily, and arguably over Myers because Subban has been as good if not better than him for the past two seasons but Myers has that godlike rookie season behind him which imho he will never live up to. As for Kronwall, Subban actually plays better all-around physically than him, but hits just as hard. Some of his hits this season have been compared to the swede's.
I'd really like to know what you mean in the bolded, can you elaborate please. Poise and responsibility? I think he has plenty of both.
He was an all-star everywhere he played, in every league, except for the NHL. Still made the rookie all-star game last year. So I expect him to become a regular in the big show starting as soon as next season.
Like it's already been mentioned, he is by far and large our #1 defenseman this season. A +9 on a bottom feeder team with 36 points and a 119 PIM is amazing for a 22 year old that seemingly does everything for this team and plays the most minutes on top of it. If there are 30 #1 defensemen in the league, he as a lower end d-man would be 30-20 or something like that? Well he's already there and then some. Top 12-15 is not out of the question and I will venture as far as saying he will be much more than that during his peak years.
And out of the names you listed, I suppose that is your top 18 defenseman? I'd take Subban over Myers Byfuglien Enstrom Boyle Bieksa and Kronwall. Most of them rather easily, and arguably over Myers because Subban has been as good if not better than him for the past two seasons but Myers has that godlike rookie season behind him which imho he will never live up to. As for Kronwall, Subban actually plays better all-around physically than him, but hits just as hard. Some of his hits this season have been compared to the swede's.
no need to try, some people just don't like him and give him the "overrated" label because they would hate to admit he is actually any good. He's one of those players people love to hate, unless he's on your team that is
I'd really like to know what you mean in the bolded, can you elaborate please. Poise and responsibility? I think he has plenty of both.
He was an all-star everywhere he played, in every league, except for the NHL. Still made the rookie all-star game last year. So I expect him to become a regular in the big show starting as soon as next season.
Like it's already been mentioned, he is by far and large our #1 defenseman this season. A +9 on a bottom feeder team with 36 points and a 119 PIM is amazing for a 22 year old that seemingly does everything for this team and plays the most minutes on top of it. If there are 30 #1 defensemen in the league, he as a lower end d-man would be 30-20 or something like that? Well he's already there and then some. Top 12-15 is not out of the question and I will venture as far as saying he will be much more than that during his peak years.
And out of the names you listed, I suppose that is your top 18 defenseman? I'd take Subban over Myers Byfuglien Enstrom Boyle Bieksa and Kronwall. Most of them rather easily, and arguably over Myers because Subban has been as good if not better than him for the past two seasons but Myers has that godlike rookie season behind him which imho he will never live up to. As for Kronwall, Subban actually plays better all-around physically than him, but hits just as hard. Some of his hits this season have been compared to the swede's.
I think he's still a bit of a gambler, going for the big hit or making a bad pinch, but he's young. I'm done arguing. I think he's very good, I don't think he's elite. When you take in potential, age, salary, sure he's got more value than a lot of those guys, but no way is he better today than any of those guys.
no need to try, some people just don't like him and give him the "overrated" label because they would hate to admit he is actually any good. He's one of those players people love to hate, unless he's on your team that is
I do not hate him at all, he and Price are by far my favourite Habs. Would love Edmonton to get both of them.
I think he's still a bit of a gambler, going for the big hit or making a bad pinch, but he's young. I'm done arguing. I think he's very good, I don't think he's elite. When you take in potential, age, salary, sure he's got more value than a lot of those guys, but no way is he better today than any of those guys.
When your gambling turns out good results in the long run it isn't gambling anymore, its investing in results.
That's Subban.
Defense isn't just about holding on in your zone preventing a scoring chance. Subban is fantastic at getting the puck back and maintaining team possession of it. At when your team has the puck the other team can't score.
And they claim us Canuck fans are arrogant. Yakupov on his best day isn't in Ovechkin's league for one specific reason. He's never played a damn game. If he pops 60 goals in his rookie season. You can make this claim but not before.
As a Hab fan, pass. While Yakupov is cited to be a star, Grigorenko has numerous Malkin comparisons. If the difference is Subban, we'll take our chances.
And they claim us Canuck fans are arrogant. Yakupov on his best day isn't in Ovechkin's league for one specific reason. He's never played a damn game. If he pops 60 goals in his rookie season. You can make this claim but not before.
As a Hab fan, pass. While Yakupov is cited to be a star, Grigorenko has numerous Malkin comparisons. If the difference is Subban, we'll take our chances.
Disregard what lakai says, his passion as an oiler fan is undeniable but he does live on the uberhomeristic side of the spectrum. Wouldn't call him a troll just uneducated in hockey.
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who is a Habs fan, and I asked him what he would give up if Edmonton and Montreal swapped picks. He said Markov. We both laughed.
He did like Gagner though, and I like the way Gorges plays the game... does anyone think something could be worked out there?
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who is a Habs fan, and I asked him what he would give up if Edmonton and Montreal swapped picks. He said Markov. We both laughed.
He did like Gagner though, and I like the way Gorges plays the game... does anyone think something could be worked out there?
Nope. Gorges is the habs unofficial captain and next real captain IMO. Also I wouldnt have any interest in Gagner. The habs dont need another small C. He would end up being on the 3rd line and it would be a mess down the middle
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who is a Habs fan, and I asked him what he would give up if Edmonton and Montreal swapped picks. He said Markov. We both laughed.
He did like Gagner though, and I like the way Gorges plays the game... does anyone think something could be worked out there?
Around Gorges and Gagner.
You want Gorges you better be ready to offer up more than some spare part like Gagner.A lot more.
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who is a Habs fan, and I asked him what he would give up if Edmonton and Montreal swapped picks. He said Markov. We both laughed.
He did like Gagner though, and I like the way Gorges plays the game... does anyone think something could be worked out there?
Pass on Gagner, we'll keep Gorges, not a chance of that happening. Markov has a modified NTC, he'll end up in a place like Detroit if he get traded.
Gagner would be our 3rd or 4th line center at best. He is not close to Gorges in value to the Habs due to the fact we have 2 clear cut better top 6 centers than Gagner, and need size at center far more than a 40 point smurf.
I also would rather not see the Habs make a move to get Yakupov. I am in the minority, I know, but he is another thin forward who isn't physical and has already had 2 concussions playing with boys his own age. What do people think will happen to him when Lucic and crew or Simmonds and company get the chance to knock him around a bit? Sorry, guys, I would rather we stay the course and draft Grigorenko or Galchenyuk or even Forsberg (if he shows he can play center) since our need is a center with some skill AND size.
Seriously, we would not play Yakupov with Cole, DD, and Pacioretty. That means a 2nd line of Plekanec, Gionta, and Yakupov. We have seen what happens to smurf lines in our division, and I am tired of seeing it. Draft big or trade for big, no more small injury prone skill guys...at least not with our 1st pick this year.
Oiler fans are unbelievable. Pk subban (some aid from Georges) was single handedly the montreal defence this year. I dont think people realize how garbage our defence was. The 22yr old kid played 25 mins a night, against top lines. Finished a +9, almost 40 points, over 100pims, over 100 hits, over 100 blocked shots on a severely underachieving montreal squad.
I wouldnt even trade him for the 1st overall straight up.
Edmonton should thank PK for having the number 1 pick actually.
Oiler fans are unbelievable. Pk subban (some aid from Georges) was single handedly the montreal defence this year. I dont think people realize how garbage our defence was. The 22yr old kid played 25 mins a night, against top lines. Finished a +9, almost 40 points, over 100pims, over 100 hits, over 100 blocked shots on a severely underachieving montreal squad.
I wouldnt even trade him for the 1st overall straight up.
Edmonton should thank PK for having the number 1 pick actually.
I guess you missed the last third of the season, wasn't PK in the dog house and was benched a number of times because of his poor play. Then there is the fighting with teammates during practice. I can understand why some EDM fans don't want any part of PK, especially with that kid Gernat coming up and a couple of others.
I guess you missed the last third of the season, wasn't PK in the dog house and was benched a number of times because of his poor play. Then there is the fighting with teammates during practice. I can understand why some EDM fans don't want any part of PK, especially with that kid Gernat coming up and a couple of others.
Oh, someone watched TSN early in the season. Then forgot that it was early in the season.
I guess you missed the last third of the season, wasn't PK in the dog house and was benched a number of times because of his poor play. Then there is the fighting with teammates during practice. I can understand why some EDM fans don't want any part of PK, especially with that kid Gernat coming up and a couple of others.
Dont kid yourself. Subban would be The Oilers #1 as soon as got there and they would love him.
We were actually talking about swapping first round picks, 1st for 3rd, and Gagner and Gorges.
Meh, both teams probably walk away from that anyways.
As a Habs fan i think i would pass.Gagner is redundent .We don't need another small 3rd liner especially at the cost of Gorges who is our future Captain is one of our top D-man.
I'm not totally sold on Yak.He may be the bpa but his injurys concern me.
Grigs or Gally i think is the way to go for the Habs.
I guess it comes down to
Yak and Gagner
or
Gorges and Grigs/Gally
I guess you missed the last third of the season, wasn't PK in the dog house and was benched a number of times because of his poor play. Then there is the fighting with teammates during practice. I can understand why some EDM fans don't want any part of PK, especially with that kid Gernat coming up and a couple of others.
I watched every game this season. He had some growing pains, and he was still filling the #1 dman role. But the last 1/3rd of a season is when PK stepped up. His play away from the puck and his decision making made great leaps by that point. The injuries forced him to play beyond his development level until he caught up.
And the in-fighting more than likely has something to do with the frustration of losing when they expected to be in the running this year. But you keep selling the same old garbage and we'll keep enjoying watching Subban in a Habs uni.
I watched every game this season. He had some growing pains, and he was still filling the #1 dman role. But the last 1/3rd of a season is when PK stepped up. His play away from the puck and his decision making made great leaps by that point. The injuries forced him to play beyond his development level until he caught up.
And the in-fighting more than likely has something to do with the frustration of losing when they expected to be in the running this year. But you keep selling the same old garbage and we'll keep enjoying watching Subban in a Habs uni.
My mistake, it was DEC, JAN, and FEB when he was benched at least a couple of times and was also a healthy scratch due to his poor play. What I understand one of his own teammates agree that is was the proper thing to do when he was benched. PK needs to grow-up and the question is, can he. Don't get me wrong I like PK's play, but he's always doing something stupid that end's up in hurting the team.
