Best players of all time not counting their top ten seasons
I take it the experts all agree Howe is first?
So my question is - who's second? Is it Gretzky? Can you argue it's Lidstrom or Bourque?
Forwards with more than 12 70-point seasons...
1 Gordie Howe* 1951 1970 DET NHL 18
2 Wayne Gretzky* 1980 1998 TOT NHL 17
3 Marcel Dionne* 1972 1987 TOT NHL 16
4 Ron Francis* 1983 2002 TOT NHL 16
5 Jaromir Jagr 1993 2008 TOT NHL 15
6 Mats Sundin 1992 2008 TOT NHL 15
7 Joe Sakic 1990 2007 TOT NHL 14
8 Steve Yzerman* 1984 2000 DET NHL 14
9 Phil Esposito* 1968 1980 TOT NHL 13
10 Dale Hawerchuk* 1982 1994 TOT NHL 13
11 Mark Messier* 1982 1997 TOT NHL 13
12 Stan Mikita* 1962 1975 CBH NHL 13
13 Gilbert Perreault* 1971 1985 BUF NHL 13
Defenseman with more than 12 35-point seasons...
1 Raymond Bourque* 1980 2001 TOT NHL 22
2 Larry Murphy* 1981 2000 TOT NHL 20
3 Al MacInnis* 1984 2003 TOT NHL 19
4 Nicklas Lidstrom 1992 2011 DET NHL 18
5 Phil Housley 1983 2002 TOT NHL 17
6 Paul Coffey* 1982 2000 TOT NHL 16
7 Brad Park* 1970 1985 TOT NHL 15
8 Denis Potvin* 1974 1988 NYI NHL 15
9 Larry Robinson* 1975 1990 TOT NHL 15
10 Chris Chelios 1985 2002 TOT NHL 14
11 Brian Leetch* 1989 2004 TOT NHL 14
12 Sergei Zubov 1994 2008 TOT NHL 14
13 Scott Niedermayer 1993 2010 TOT NHL 13
So my list is...
1. Howe
2. Bourque
3. Murphy
4. Gretzky
5. Lidstrom
I guess it depends on how we remove them. I know one could remove Patrick Roy's ten best years based upon his regular season play (1987-1992, 1994, 1997, 2002, 2003) and his remaining career still includes four Stanley Cups, three Conn Smythes, and an 87-34 playoff record.
I guess it depends on how we remove them. I know one could remove Patrick Roy's ten best years based upon his regular season play (1987-1992, 1994, 1997, 2002, 2003) and his remaining career still includes four Stanley Cups, three Conn Smythes, and an 87-34 playoff record.
Very True. Everyone's hard to gauge when playoffs are accounted for, and goalies with long careers are even harder to gauge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele
Gretzky recorded over 100 assists in his 11th best season.
Gretzky's 11th best year is probably the best 11th best year anyone's ever had so I'd take him based on peak value. Using pnep's numbers Gretzky does only slightly less in 10 years than what Howe did in 16.
I think there are better ways to judge "best" seasons, but will use raw points for simplicity. This is what their careers look like without their 10 best years.
Gretzky
Season
Age
Tm
GP
G
A
PTS
AS/Awards
1979-80
19
EDM
79
51
86
137
2nd, Hart
1989-90
29
LAK
73
40
102
142
2nd, Art Ross
1991-92
31
LAK
74
31
90
121
1992-93
32
LAK
45
16
49
65
1993-94
33
LAK
81
38
92
130
2nd, Art Ross
1994-95
34
LAK
48
11
37
48
1995-96
35
TOT
80
23
79
102
1996-97
36
NYR
82
25
72
97
2nd
1997-98
37
NYR
82
23
67
90
2nd
1998-99
38
NYR
70
9
53
62
714
267
727
994
Ignoring Gretzky's top 10 raw point totals, he still wins 2 of his 10 Art Ross Trophies (1990, 1994) and ties for the points lead in the only of 9 Hart Trophy seasons (1980) that remain.
No one else will have an Art Ross Trophy, let alone two of them if you ignore their best 10 years.
He also lead the NHL in assists 6 times.
In spite of the fact we've effectively eliminated the 1980s for Gretzky, his 1.39 PPG (99 Pts per season thanks to lockout) ties him with Bobby Orr's PPG for his full career and is behind only Lemieux, Bossy and Crosby, all of whom have a limited number of games past the age of 30 (Lemieux has the most, with 316 by HR age standards).
I'd venture to guess that this is easily the highest PPG total of anyone who loses their 10 best years and still played a significant number of games. Lemieux has 1.43 PPG, with his strong comeback run and a few partial seasons from his prime.
Lemieux
Season
Age
Tm
GP
G
A
PTS
1990-91
25
PIT
26
19
26
45
1993-94
28
PIT
22
17
20
37
2001
35
PIT
43
35
41
76
2002
36
PIT
24
6
25
31
2003
37
PIT
67
28
63
91
2004
38
PIT
10
1
8
9
2006
40
PIT
26
7
15
22
218
113
198
311
Howe's sheer longevity boosts his career totals, and lets him have more years under 30 than anyone else. But he doesn't peak as high as Wayne does since he never leads in goals, assists or points. It's also harder to use point totals to define his best seasons since he has a couple of Hart seasons included while a very good but not great 1968 season is eliminated.
Howe
Season
Age
Tm
GP
G
A
PTS
AS
1946-47
18
DET
58
7
15
22
1947-48
19
DET
60
16
28
44
1948-49
20
DET
40
12
25
37
2nd
1949-50
21
DET
70
35
33
68
2nd
1954-55
26
DET
64
29
33
62
1957-58
29
DET
64
33
44
77
1st, Hart
1959-60
31
DET
70
28
45
73
1st, Hart
1960-61
32
DET
64
23
49
72
2nd
1961-62
33
DET
70
33
44
77
2nd
1963-64
35
DET
69
26
47
73
2nd
1964-65
36
DET
70
29
47
76
2nd
1965-66
37
DET
70
29
46
75
1st
1966-67
38
DET
69
25
40
65
2nd
1969-70
41
DET
76
31
40
71
1st
1970-71
42
DET
63
23
29
52
1979-80
51
HAR
80
15
26
41
1057
394
591
985
Howe has 4 1st team AS selections and 7 2nd team selections. Ray Bourque never wins a Norris if his best 10 are excluded, but has 3 1st team and 6 2nd team AS selections.
Bourque
Season
Age
Tm
GP
G
A
PTS
AS
1979-80
19
BOS
80
17
48
65
1st
1980-81
20
BOS
67
27
29
56
2nd
1981-82
21
BOS
65
17
49
66
1st
1982-83
22
BOS
65
22
51
73
2nd
1985-86
25
BOS
74
19
58
77
2nd
1988-89
28
BOS
60
18
43
61
2nd
1994-95
34
BOS
46
12
31
43
2nd
1996-97
36
BOS
62
19
31
50
1997-98
37
BOS
82
13
35
48
1998-99
38
BOS
81
10
47
57
2nd
1999-00
39
TOT
79
18
34
52
00/01
40
COL
80
7
52
59
1st
841
199
508
707
For Lidstrom I simply eliminated his 10 1st team AS seasons. Since Bourque had more than 10 I couldn't do the same for him. Lidstrom also never wins a Norris and has 2 2nd team AS selections, which puts him well behind Borque in this contest.
Lidstrom
Season
Age
Tm
GP
G
A
PTS
AS
1992
21
DET
80
11
49
60
1993
22
DET
84
7
34
41
1994
23
DET
84
10
46
56
1995
24
DET
43
10
16
26
1996
25
DET
81
17
50
67
1997
26
DET
79
15
42
57
2004
33
DET
81
10
28
38
2009
38
DET
78
16
43
59
2nd
2010
39
DET
82
9
40
49
2nd
2012
41
DET
70
11
23
34
762
116
371
487
As for Larry Murphy, he wasn't bad, but I don't think he's top 5. If you count his whole career I'd still take Gretzky, Bourque and Howe without their best 10 before I'd take Murphy.
It has to be Gordie Howe, he would have ten top 5 scoring finishes, another top 10 scoring finish in 1970, 3rd in ppg for 1949. 2 Hart Trophies and 2 stanley cups, while having an excellent all-around game.
even Ray Whitney -- all had nice careers that were well past their best ten years.
I'm as big of a Selanne fan as anybody, but this past season is the best he's played outside his Top 10. Not exactly anything to write home about. Scott Niedermayer was largely irrelevant after his best few seasons. And Chris Pronger is probably hurt as much as anybody, since the most special thing about him is his peak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke
Does Jagr have one elite season past his best 10 ?
He has eleven Top 10 finishes, so there's at least one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke
Brodeur ?
According to Vezina voters, sure. He also has an additional four Top 5 finishes in Wins outside his 10 best.
Last edited by quoipourquoi: 04-13-2012 at 03:54 PM.
Although no one has so far mentioned it, this looks very much like an NHL only thread, so maybe the subject line should be changed to "Best NHL players..."?
There are several Europeans that were great outside of the NHL. The "green unit" basically had their 10 best seasons outside of the NHL (although I'm not sure that would help them enough here anyway). Jagr have had top seasons outside of the NHL, as did Peter Stastny (who I think played for Slovakia at age 40+ or so). And so on...
I'm currently not very intested in digging further into them, but just thought it might be mentioned in case anyone just had forgotten about NHL not being everything in hockey.
Although no one has so far mentioned it, this looks very much like an NHL only thread, so maybe the subject line should be changed to "Best NHL players..."?
There are several Europeans that were great outside of the NHL. The "green unit" basically had their 10 best seasons outside of the NHL (although I'm not sure that would help them enough here anyway). Jagr have had top seasons outside of the NHL, as did Peter Stastny (who I think played for Slovakia at age 40+ or so). And so on...
I'm currently not very intested in digging further into them, but just thought it might be mentioned in case anyone just had forgotten about NHL not being everything in hockey.
Give Makarov and Larionov credit for missing their 10 best years and use their NHL careers as is. Krutov too, but he wouldn't really rate based on his NHL career.
Nice work pnep. Three things jump out at me from this list:
1) Surprised at the relatively poor showing of goalies and defencemen as compared to forwards. It seemed like there's been plenty of non-forwards who have had long careers (Chelios, Murphy, Horton, Sawchuk, Esposito, Brodeur).
2) Bobby Hull would almost certainly be in the top 5 if his WHA years were accounted for.
3) Ron Francis does surprisingly well here, with a higher score than Mikita or Bucyk in a similar number of seasons. His peak doesn't match that of the greats of the game, but it drives me crazy when people call him a "compiler". He wasn't just around for a long time; he was very very good for a long time.
It has to be Gordie Howe, he would have ten top 5 scoring finishes, another top 10 scoring finish in 1970, 3rd in ppg for 1949. 2 Hart Trophies and 2 stanley cups, while having an excellent all-around game.
Gretzky and Bourque would be right after him.
Out of curiosity, which did you choose for Howe's best ten?
If it's the same as my post, it changes with adjusted points. Howe "only" has 1 Hart (60) and 1 Cup (55) if you eliminate the top 10 based on adjusted points.
Give Makarov and Larionov credit for missing their 10 best years and use their NHL careers as is. Krutov too, but he wouldn't really rate based on his NHL career.
Exactly. And Fetisov actually would have more seasons than several players on the lists provided, including some good ones and including Stanley Cups.
People here very often forgets that Europeans have good seasons outside of NHL, including ones in which they would have been top players in NHL.
As Reckoning mentioned, WHA also matters somewhat.
Out of curiosity, which did you choose for Howe's best ten?
If it's the same as my post, it changes with adjusted points. Howe "only" has 1 Hart (60) and 1 Cup (55) if you eliminate the top 10 based on adjusted points.
Well i took out his 6 rosses, and the 2nd place scoring finishes and his 1969 season. His 1969 season is probably the greatest 40 year old season in any sport, well except barry bonds i guess.
I agree with you in that gretzky's 11th best season is the greatest '11th' season of all times. But howe just simply has him beat in durability and gordie's 2 way game became much better as he got older. Also, during these seasons, gordie also lead the playoffs in scoring 4 times. Most of gretzky's playoff dominance is in his peak, outside of 1993.
And Gretzky 10 best have easily 3 HOF player career in them (probably that any 200 points season + the cup would give him a chance to the Hall even if only played is rooki season and the 200 points season alone).
Nice work pnep. Three things jump out at me from this list:
1) Surprised at the relatively poor showing of goalies and defencemen as compared to forwards. It seemed like there's been plenty of non-forwards who have had long careers (Chelios, Murphy, Horton, Sawchuk, Esposito, Brodeur).
2) Bobby Hull would almost certainly be in the top 5 if his WHA years were accounted for.
3) Ron Francis does surprisingly well here, with a higher score than Mikita or Bucyk in a similar number of seasons. His peak doesn't match that of the greats of the game, but it drives me crazy when people call him a "compiler". He wasn't just around for a long time; he was very very good for a long time.
For point #1, I was thinking in particular why Chelios wouldn't make it and I think it's because the list puts a heavy emphasis on awards voting and very few players at any position get awards recognition outside their 10 best seasons. But forwards can still rack up some "top 10" or "top 20" finishes in points. Just a guess based in what I know of the formula.
Does being a dominant playoff scorer into your 40's count?
I don't think the fact that his team is running a train on Marc-Andre Fleury makes Jagr a "dominant playoff scorer" right now. He's got five points (1 G, 4 A) in three games, but his team as a whole has scored, like, 20 goals. They're all looking pretty dominant; it's been three games!
I don't think the fact that his team is running a train on Marc-Andre Fleury makes Jagr a "dominant playoff scorer" right now. He's got five points (1 G, 4 A) in three games, but his team as a whole has scored, like, 20 goals. They're all looking pretty dominant; it's been three games!
Oh, I know, this is the best team he's played on since at least '96, perhaps '93.
He's not nearly as consistently dominating, but he had three great points the last two games:
- spin around GWG to break the tie in the third period of game 2... a huge goal in this series
- great pass on PP to put Flyers up 5-3 in 2nd today
- awesome one-handed pass while being held to break Pens back early in third
Great plays at key times, although of course there's plenty of credit to go around.
It's just funny how people wondered why he signed with Flyers over Pens... guess he ain't as dumb as he looks?
Also, he's been a big influence on this team full of rookies and young players. I don't want to hear about how Crosby is such a great "leader" and Jagr is a mopey clown after this series. The last two playoff series he's played against the Pens, he's been every bit as dangerous as Crosby and Malkin (and better in '08). It boggles the mind how some can claim Crosby's better than a guy who outplays and outleads him at age 40.
Last edited by Czech Your Math: 04-15-2012 at 07:05 PM.
Oh, I know, this is the best team he's played on since at least '96, perhaps '93.
He's not nearly as consistently dominating, but he had three great points the last two games:
- spin around GWG to break the tie in the third period of game 2... a huge goal in this series
- great pass on PP to put Flyers up 5-3 in 2nd today
- awesome one-handed pass while being held to break Pens back early in third
Great plays at key times, although of course there's plenty of credit to go around.
It's just funny how people wondered why he signed with Flyers over Pens... guess he ain't as dumb as he looks?
Also, he's been a big influence on this team full of rookies and young players. I don't want to hear about how Crosby is such a great "leader" and Jagr is a mopey clown after this series. The last two playoff series he's played against the Pens, he's been every bit as dangerous as Crosby and Malkin (and better in '08). It boggles the mind how some can claim Crosby's better than a guy who outplays and outleads him at age 40.
Oh, I absolutely do not disagree; I think he's been great so far - and I've never been part of the crowd to call Jagr a "mopey clown" (I've seen the 1999 series with the Devils; I know what kind of warrior he is). I just think three games for any one player are a little early to throw around the word "dominant."
Pts per season thanks to lockout) ties him with Bobby Orr's PPG for his full career and is behind only Lemieux, Bossy and Crosby, all of whom have a limited number of games past the age of 30 (Lemieux has the most, with 316 by HR age standards).
