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The Philadelphia Model?

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Old
04-15-2012, 06:18 PM
  #226
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Both teams are suffering of the defensive side of things because of the physical play.


Both teams are suffering on the defensive side of things because the goaltending has been atrocious, nothing more, nothing less.

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing, but I'm amazed at the lengths one has to go to make everything about physicality. It's got next to nothing to do with how this series has gone.

Basically, the "toughness" side has been about the Penguins going ballistic pretty much after the series was all but lost.

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04-15-2012, 06:18 PM
  #227
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The 29th place Habs team would have fared far better than Pittsburgh. Some delusional people in here.

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04-15-2012, 06:19 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post


Both teams are suffering on the defensive side of things because the goaltending has been atrocious, nothing more, nothing less.

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing, but I'm amazed at the lengths one has to go to make everything about physicality. It's got next to nothing to do with how this series has gone.

Basically, the "toughness" side has been about the Penguins going ballistic pretty much after the series was all but lost.
The D has been atrocious and so has the goaltending. Watch the game. Look at all the odd man rushes... guys left alone in front. Guys wide open.

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04-15-2012, 06:24 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The D has been atrocious and so has the goaltending. Watch the game. Look at all the odd man rushes... guys left alone in front. Guys wide open.
I will have to admit the Pittsburgh PK has also been pathetic and both teams have had some serious defensive miscues.

Again, nothing that has anything to do with "size and toughness".

But seriously, Fleury stops less than one puck in five. That's not even AHL-level, that's beer league, even with bad defense. Goaltending is killing the Pens. With decent goaltending, even with all the bad defense they'd be okay.

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04-15-2012, 06:46 PM
  #230
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I hate the Flyers...

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Old
04-15-2012, 06:50 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
We're using the Philadelphia approach with Eller. They don't depend on their young players. They put them on the 3rd line and let them learn and become defensively responsible. Eventually they get more comfortable and take advantage of their opportunities when they find their feet. Boston did the same with Seguin. The goal is to have little to no pressure but giving them an opportunity to grow at the same time.
Detroit does this too

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04-15-2012, 07:00 PM
  #232
Et le But
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The 29th place Habs team would have fared far better than Pittsburgh. Some delusional people in here.
Even in our most embarrassing playoff series against the Flyers we never disgraced ourselves this badly.

Seriously, when was the last time the Habs conceded 8 goals? It wasn't this season, even with hurr durr 29th place.

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04-15-2012, 07:04 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The 29th place Habs team would have fared far better than Pittsburgh. Some delusional people in here.
Not really, we have Carey Price in net.

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04-15-2012, 07:29 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post


Both teams are suffering on the defensive side of things because the goaltending has been atrocious, nothing more, nothing less.
Wrong.

Quote:
Confirmation bias is a powerful thing, but I'm amazed at the lengths one has to go to make everything about physicality. It's got next to nothing to do with how this series has gone.
... and it never ceases to amaze me how many people think this team can compete near any of the top teams without addressing the issues the team has had since 94.

But yeah, lets throw the smurfs out there every year and pray for a Halakian performance every time, we'll show them one day.. we'll show them.

This team wouldn't stand a chance in this series, stop making excuses and stop thinking Price would bail this team out.

Quote:
Basically, the "toughness" side has been about the Penguins going ballistic pretty much after the series was all but lost.
Oh BS, this started 2 weeks ago the last time they met. They were out-muscled after the first game in this series and they've tried to show Philly they couldn't be pushed around ever since.

I'm amazed how many people like the way this team has chugged along , fans defending every terrible move and team philosophy since Serge Savard left. Keep telling yourself it'll get better one day with this policy, shouldn't be but another 20 years before we make some noise.

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04-15-2012, 07:32 PM
  #235
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Even in our most embarrassing playoff series against the Flyers we never disgraced ourselves this badly.

Seriously, when was the last time the Habs conceded 8 goals? It wasn't this season, even with hurr durr 29th place.
That means nothing. How often did Pitt concede 8 goals? You can't just look at a team and say "omg, we would have done better".

Habs are 2-8 against Philly in the last 2 playoff series...getting stonwalled by such goaltending legends as Martin Biron and Micheal Leighton.

Anyways...I guess whatever makes some sleep better...just like how we were virtually stanley cup champions cuz we took boston to 7. LOL

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04-15-2012, 08:27 PM
  #236
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The Flyers model: trusting in your scouting staff and players in the QMJHL.

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04-15-2012, 08:31 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
And Carey Price. I'm fairly sure he'd have kept his save percentage north of .800%.

And considering how terrible Bryzgalov has been, that might well have been enough.
First, as for the physical battle in this series, I think the Pens have held their own. I don't think they've been outmuscled at all. I actually think they deserve a lot better than they've gotten but Fleury is asleep at the switch.

Second. I know you keep saying physicality doesn't matter... I just don't agree. This is where those microstats (why is it how it is) comes into issue. If say, the Bruins have good analytics... isn't it possible that their analytics are good because they're physical? Isn't that a possiblity that just isn't easily captured? Analytics will tell you who's numbers are better but they don't necessarily tell you WHY they're better.

On the goaltending point, well I don't see how anyone could disagree with you. It's been terrible on both sides. MAF is costing Pittsburgh the series it's as simple as that. Pittsburgh should be up at least 2 games to 1. No way they should've lost game one and game two was theirs for the taking as well. I expected Bryzgalov to be bad (and he hasn't been good) but I'm surprised by Fleury. He's not a stud but he's a good goalie and he's been shockingly bad.
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Both teams are suffering of the defensive side of things because of the physical play. Stop making excuses for all the small, pathetically weak Montreal teams the last 20 years, it is getting old.

Philly can play any game the opposition wants, Montreal can't, so lets come to terms with that. You think Price would make the difference in this series? No chance, they would run him down and block make havoc for him, especially with zero size to clear the crease.

Pittsburgh decided to try and match the physical play, it was a terrible coaching strategy, they are going to pay for it.
I think the only thing that might save us in a series against Philly is goaltending. They've got average to poor and we've got a stud. Other than that, we'd get smoked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post


Both teams are suffering on the defensive side of things because the goaltending has been atrocious, nothing more, nothing less.

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing, but I'm amazed at the lengths one has to go to make everything about physicality. It's got next to nothing to do with how this series has gone.

Basically, the "toughness" side has been about the Penguins going ballistic pretty much after the series was all but lost.
Both clubs have pretty much abandoned defense. Two on ones all over the place and wide open hockey. You'd think that would favour the Pens but...

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Old
04-15-2012, 08:50 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
I hate the Flyers...
I'm really starting to love this team. This is a Hockey Team! Holgrem is the man!

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Old
04-15-2012, 09:11 PM
  #239
Et le But
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Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
I'm really starting to love this team. This is a Hockey Team! Holgrem is the man!
Is that how sad things have become in Montreal, that Habs fans are looking up to the Flyers? Ugh.

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04-15-2012, 09:23 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
No.

If it was that there'd be some justification.

But the Habs have been giving their kids away for second round picks and worse prospects.

They have not given up these guys to make the playoffs, not at all. They have given up these guys to get rid of them. And generally for reasons that have nothing to do with their on-ice play.

EDIT: I see I've missed your point, but I still think it's bogus. It wasn't a matter of nervosity and playing with pressure. Some of these kids were playing very well for Montreal. They were misused by coaches like Carbonneau and the Habs simply failed to realize what they had.
I was talking more about the most recent cases, under Martin (D'Agostini, Kostitsyn, A Kostitsyn to a degree, Latendresse, Lapierre, Pouliot, O'Byrne, and probably a couple more). Most of them had shown good things, but as soon as they struggled, the team couldn't afford any losses so they were benched until they lost all confidence and trade value. I'm generalizing but that's the impression I got in the last couple of years.

Heck, the whole Gomez fiasco happened because of our obsession with making the playoffs as a bubble team instead of building a team properly. We couldn't wait for McDonaugh to be ready, we needed to win now.

Mind you, not all of them are terrible losses and we did get something in return in some cases, mainly Palushaj and Bournival, or picks we traded for aging dmen. But if you look at the overall picture, that's a lot of players gone with little assets coming back.

Again, sorry to derail the trade. Flyers bla bla bla.

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04-15-2012, 09:32 PM
  #241
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The Flyers Model : build your team around french-canadian superstar?

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04-15-2012, 09:48 PM
  #242
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Yeah, the habs should draft one of the best defencemen of all time in the third round and ride him into his 50's.
So true.

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04-15-2012, 10:03 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

I think the only thing that might save us in a series against Philly is goaltending. They've got average to poor and we've got a stud. Other than that, we'd get smoked.
I see the terrible goaltending as a result of all the shenanigans on the ice. Both goalies are capable, both seem to be victims of how both teams are banging instead of playing positional hockey.

Let's face it, when Price is off his game... he's as suspect as anyone.

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04-15-2012, 10:05 PM
  #244
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Is that how sad things have become in Montreal, that Habs fans are looking up to the Flyers? Ugh.
We should admire our wonderful play/system instead?

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04-15-2012, 10:11 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I see the terrible goaltending as a result of all the shenanigans on the ice. Both goalies are capable, both seem to be victims of how both teams are banging instead of playing positional hockey.

Let's face it, when Price is off his game... he's as suspect as anyone.
Price >>>>> Bryzagalov.

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04-15-2012, 11:37 PM
  #246
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For the life of me, I never understood the Morel hiring. The guy was a ref with NO scouting background.

Nolet is an ace. He's getting old, but I'd still try to pry him out. As for Boucher, is he the same dude that coached Trois-Rivières once? Supposed to be part of this 'new breed' of coaching?

Boisvert, don't know about his judgment.

Montreal SHOULD HAVE A FULL TIME SCOUT IN THE Q. For one thing, that would be a plus. I'm tired of seeing frenchies and Q products produce come playoffs.
It makes no sense to spend all that money for a private Q combine (and a few other players) and then don't appoint more scouts in the Q. You either do it or don't.....unless that combine is for the show only. I'll choose to not believe it.... for now. But if you take the time to really assess the players coming from that league, shouldn't you just add it to other steps in going after the best guys of that league? Which is appointing more scouts and one permanent. Which is going after REAL good candidates, the ones that have proven something over the years, the ones with ACTUAL results? And shouldn't come with better end-results in the end. AGain, we have an advantage over half the league. We know that the Q exists. Why not benefit from it eve if we understand that the quantity isn't as great as it used to be.

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04-16-2012, 12:08 AM
  #247
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Hartnell and Giroux are awesome , good lord Timmins deserves to be fired if only for missing out on Giroux.Having Giroux changes an organization right away , that's how good he is , all his ''okay'' safe picks aren't even close to having the impact of a Claude Giroux , I don't care how many of his picks made the NHL , we need guys like Giroux.

This mistake was simply inexcusable , especially since Giroux was a more well-known pick , was a french canadian and was basically on every GMs list ahead of Fischer except Timmins.

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04-16-2012, 12:20 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Hartnell and Giroux are awesome , good lord Timmins deserves to be fired if only for missing out on Giroux.Having Giroux changes an organization right away , that's how good he is , all his ''okay'' safe picks aren't even close to having the impact of a Claude Giroux , I don't care how many of his picks made the NHL , we need guys like Giroux.

This mistake was simply inexcusable , especially since Giroux was a more well-known pick , was a french canadian and was basically on every GMs list ahead of Fischer except Timmins.
send me the PDF of the lists, IMO can sell for good amount on ebay

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Old
04-16-2012, 03:08 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
I'm really starting to love this team. This is a Hockey Team! Holgrem is the man!
I've always liked the Flyers, even though they killed our dream season in 2008 and our magical playoff run in 2010

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04-16-2012, 07:28 AM
  #250
Monctonscout
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Hartnell and Giroux are awesome , good lord Timmins deserves to be fired if only for missing out on Giroux.Having Giroux changes an organization right away , that's how good he is , all his ''okay'' safe picks aren't even close to having the impact of a Claude Giroux , I don't care how many of his picks made the NHL , we need guys like Giroux.

This mistake was simply inexcusable , especially since Giroux was a more well-known pick , was a french canadian and was basically on every GMs list ahead of Fischer except Timmins.
If that's the measuring stick then every head scout in the NHL should be fired. I'm sure I can find a player that blatantly missed.

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