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The Philadelphia Model?

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Old
04-16-2012, 06:33 AM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Is that how sad things have become in Montreal, that Habs fans are looking up to the Flyers? Ugh.
The Flyers this year are a much, much different team and attitude than they were in the past... Well, ever.

New philosophy this year. They really re-invented themselves, and I think it would be petty not to give Caesar his due.

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04-16-2012, 07:49 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by CoupeStanley View Post
The Flyers Model : build your team around french-canadian superstar?
Claude Giroux isn't french Canadian BTW

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04-16-2012, 07:49 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Claude Giroux isn't french Canadian BTW
Francophone descent from Ontario. Close enough, you get the point.

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04-16-2012, 07:56 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Francophone descent from Ontario. Close enough, you get the point.
I get the point and Giroux is one of those players that every team ****ed up during the draft. Even Bobby Clarke could spell his name when he drafted him

I was replying to the guy that said they are surrounded with French superstars, weel Briere was offered a contract here, Couturier was drafted 8th overall and we had no shot at him and who else is a superstar Maxime Talbot?

Like I said earlier in the thread, if you want to model after the Flyers you need to trust the pro and amateur scouts and have a GM with balls and isn't afraid to make huge deals the way they traded Carter and Richards. But here on these boards anyways when we talk about moving a Subban or Price it's the end of the world like were are talking about Roy and Orr

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04-16-2012, 10:49 AM
  #255
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Elite talent evaluation with some balls is exactly what Montreal has lacked over the last 20 years.

OK, I guess it took balls to trade captain after captain or trade for 2 goals, but not in a good way.

We need a GM who is not afraid to go against his fanbase to cash in on a talented player, like what Holmgren did with Richards.

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04-16-2012, 11:06 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Claude Giroux isn't french Canadian BTW
Then what is he? Croatian?


Kidding aside, I can't stand when people bring ethnicity into debates like these. Instantly takes away any credibility you have in an intelligent discussion.

That being said, I love Giroux. He's my favorite player outside the Habs. Perfect hockey player. Real shame we didn't draft him, but we'll have a crack at a few good guys in the upcoming draft.

As far as I'm concerned, if he really is as die hard a habs fan as he said he was, he'd play out his RFA status in Philly then come to Montreal as a UFA. He won't. We know he won't. And that's his choice, but I really do think there's a bit of a double standard where the Habs are expected to draft every local talent with a shred of a chance to be somebody when those same people seem to forget where they're from as soon as they're raking it in.

I mean, unless you count guys like Darche or Dandenault.


Last edited by overlords: 04-16-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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04-16-2012, 11:12 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Then what is he? Croatian?

He's a ginger. He's obsiously from hell.

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04-16-2012, 11:17 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by BobBarker View Post
He's a ginger. He's obsiously from hell.
It really is a shame the habs organization limits their drafting to just the mortal realm.

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04-16-2012, 11:19 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
It really is a shame the habs organization limits their drafting to just the mortal realm.
Belzeebuth never goes in the corners, and is such a puck-hogger you couldn't believe it. He'd do better on the Devil's team

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04-16-2012, 11:36 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
but I really do think there's a bit of a double standard where the Habs are expected to draft every local talent with a shred of a chance to be somebody when those same people seem to forget where they're from as soon as they're raking it in.

I mean, unless you count guys like Darche or Dandenault.

Everytime I hear people discrediting the great job Timmins as done because of this I think back to the 2007 draft.

Pk Subban!!! Who the hell is that? We should have drafted Keven Veilleux!!!!!!!

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04-16-2012, 11:43 AM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Everytime I hear people discrediting the great job Timmins as done because of this I think back to the 2007 draft.

Pk Subban!!! Who the hell is that? We should have drafted Keven Veilleux!!!!!!!
Better yet how about Mcdonagh, Pacioretty and Subban and to a lesser extent Weber all in 2007

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Old
04-16-2012, 01:59 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
The philadelphia model is just having a pretty good GM model
Exactly this

If we drafted properly, traded properly, approched free agency properly, developped our talent properly, we'd have a decent team.

Young talent that we've traded/let go with minimal return over the past years :

Sergei Kostitsyn
Matt D'Agostini
Ryan McDonagh
Mark Streit
Mikhail Grabovksy
Michael Ryder
Mike Ribeiro

Players we've snubbed at the draft (i know its almost a lottery, but at the same time, some teams pick better then other on a consistent basis). Gonna go back to lets say 2001

2001 - Komisarek. Roy and Pomminville available.
2002 - Higgins. Not many players made a real impact in this draft year
2003 - Don't need to talk about this
2004 - Chipchura. Other available players : Zajac, Meszaros, M. Green, Krejci, Booth,
2005 - Price. Good pick
2006 - Fischer. Other availabe players : Giroux, Berglund, Foligno, Lucic
2007 - Pacioretty and Subban, great draft year

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04-16-2012, 02:16 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCanasianfrasian View Post
Exactly this

If we drafted properly, traded properly, approched free agency properly, developped our talent properly, we'd have a decent team.

Young talent that we've traded/let go with minimal return over the past years :

Sergei Kostitsyn
Matt D'Agostini
Ryan McDonagh
Mark Streit
Mikhail Grabovksy
Michael Ryder
Mike Ribeiro

Players we've snubbed at the draft (i know its almost a lottery, but at the same time, some teams pick better then other on a consistent basis). Gonna go back to lets say 2001

2001 - Komisarek. Roy and Pomminville available.
2002 - Higgins. Not many players made a real impact in this draft year
2003 - Don't need to talk about this
2004 - Chipchura. Other available players : Zajac, Meszaros, M. Green, Krejci, Booth,
2005 - Price. Good pick
2006 - Fischer. Other availabe players : Giroux, Berglund, Foligno, Lucic
2007 - Pacioretty and Subban, great draft year
Lucic was drafted by Boston in the 2nd round, right AFTER Ben Maxwell...

2003 and 2006 are the killer years.

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Old
04-16-2012, 02:21 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Lucic was drafted by Boston in the 2nd round, right AFTER Ben Maxwell...

2003 and 2006 are the killer years.
And all other other players we've lost through trades and free agency is killer aswell.

Take for example D'agostini vs Palushaj...minor trade, but what has Palushaj done? He just scored his 1st nhl goal in march...D'agostini plays 3rd line minutes on a top tier team.

Skost...We never signed Ellis, and we let Boyd go.

Ribeiro vs Niinima...along with the Roy and Chelios if you ask me.

Ryder let go for nothing, been scoring 25 goals consistenly.

Grabovsky for a 2nd. I think we used that second to get Tanguay, which we never resigned even if he was our best forward that year.

All these players are getting traded released and we're told they do not fit in the system, progression is too slow, etcetc. They go to other teams and given proper icetime and are more importantly USED properly, and they've become legit nhlers.

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04-16-2012, 02:26 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCanasianfrasian View Post
And all other other players we've lost through trades and free agency is killer aswell.

Take for example D'agostini vs Palushaj...minor trade, but what has Palushaj done? He just scored his 1st nhl goal in march...D'agostini plays 3rd line minutes on a top tier team.

Skost...We never signed Ellis, and we let Boyd go.

Ribeiro vs Niinima...along with the Roy and Chelios if you ask me.

Ryder let go for nothing, been scoring 25 goals consistenly.

Grabovsky for a 2nd. I think we used that second to get Tanguay, which we never resigned even if he was our best forward that year.

All these players are getting traded released and we're told they do not fit in the system, progression is too slow, etcetc. They go to other teams and given proper icetime and are more importantly USED properly, and they've become legit nhlers.
and that's why the Habs are looking for a new management team

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04-16-2012, 02:33 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
and that's why the Habs are looking for a new management team
I know, my comment was relation to the topic of this thread. I'm really hoping we bring legit young management talent, who think about winning, and only winning.

Washed up ex-habs with archaic hockey philosophies don't work in this league anymore. We need speed, we need size, we need work ethic and i think whats been lacking the most with this team over the past years, is player management.

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04-16-2012, 02:56 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCanasianfrasian View Post
I know, my comment was relation to the topic of this thread. I'm really hoping we bring legit young management talent, who think about winning, and only winning.

Washed up ex-habs with archaic hockey philosophies don't work in this league anymore. We need speed, we need size, we need work ethic and i think whats been lacking the most with this team over the past years, is player management.
By player management, do you mean asset management? Or do you mean having some semblance of damage control where we wouldn't dump young talented players at the first sign of having an attitude?

Both would be nice.

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04-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCanasianfrasian View Post
Exactly this

If we drafted properly, traded properly, approched free agency properly, developped our talent properly, we'd have a decent team.

Young talent that we've traded/let go with minimal return over the past years :

Sergei Kostitsyn
Matt D'Agostini
Ryan McDonagh
Mark Streit
Mikhail Grabovksy
Michael Ryder
Mike Ribeiro

Players we've snubbed at the draft (i know its almost a lottery, but at the same time, some teams pick better then other on a consistent basis). Gonna go back to lets say 2001

2001 - Komisarek. Roy and Pomminville available.
2002 - Higgins. Not many players made a real impact in this draft year
2003 - Don't need to talk about this
2004 - Chipchura. Other available players : Zajac, Meszaros, M. Green, Krejci, Booth,
2005 - Price. Good pick
2006 - Fischer. Other availabe players : Giroux, Berglund, Foligno, Lucic
2007 - Pacioretty and Subban, great draft year
I agree that misusing players and then trading them for nothing is really stupid and has to stop but for the draft... you would have a point if we were a bad drafting team but we aren't.

Every team has missed players, it happens. Looking at it that way is comparing our scouting with the scouting of 29 other teams. That doesn't seem very fair.

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04-16-2012, 03:13 PM
  #269
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Claude Giroux not French-Canadian... common now.

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04-16-2012, 03:35 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
I agree that misusing players and then trading them for nothing is really stupid and has to stop but for the draft... you would have a point if we were a bad drafting team but we aren't.

Every team has missed players, it happens. Looking at it that way is comparing our scouting with the scouting of 29 other teams. That doesn't seem very fair.
People here live on some planet where there exists a GM that never lets any player go that will produce elswhere, a head scout that always picks the best player available and a coach that can motivate any hockey player in the world and never have a down year under his tutelage.

I agree that we have had some bad moves and let some players go we shouldn't have but some of those players had to go, you can't have a 50 player NHL roster. Some of the guys we let go created room for guys like Price, Subban, Gorges, Cole, Pacioretty, Plekanec and others.

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04-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
People here live on some planet where there exists a GM that never lets any player go that will produce elswhere, a head scout that always picks the best player available and a coach that can motivate any hockey player in the world and never have a down year under his tutelage.

I agree that we have had some bad moves and let some players go we shouldn't have but some of those players had to go, you can't have a 50 player NHL roster. Some of the guys we let go created room for guys like Price, Subban, Gorges, Cole, Pacioretty, Plekanec and others.
... But you need 20... And besides the half dozen names you gave, there is not many more who are quality NHL players. Half of the current roster is questionable.

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04-16-2012, 04:51 PM
  #272
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... But you need 20... And besides the half dozen names you gave, there is not many more who are quality NHL players. Half of the current roster is questionable.
If you're going to compare guys like Ribero Streit Ryder AK etc to guys making 800k on the 4th line it's a ridiculous excersise, because just like the 50 man roster that doesn't exist, this isn't baseball and you can't have a 100 mil payroll.

As nice as it would be to have Streit as #6 d-man, he makes 4+ mil per year and would bust the cap.

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04-16-2012, 04:56 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
People here live on some planet where there exists a GM that never lets any player go that will produce elswhere, a head scout that always picks the best player available and a coach that can motivate any hockey player in the world and never have a down year under his tutelage.

I agree that we have had some bad moves and let some players go we shouldn't have but some of those players had to go, you can't have a 50 player NHL roster. Some of the guys we let go created room for guys like Price, Subban, Gorges, Cole, Pacioretty, Plekanec and others.
Does that justify not getting anything in return?

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04-16-2012, 05:34 PM
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
People here live on some planet where there exists a GM that never lets any player go that will produce elswhere, a head scout that always picks the best player available and a coach that can motivate any hockey player in the world and never have a down year under his tutelage.

I agree that we have had some bad moves and let some players go we shouldn't have but some of those players had to go, you can't have a 50 player NHL roster. Some of the guys we let go created room for guys like Price, Subban, Gorges, Cole, Pacioretty, Plekanec and others.
You seem to live in a world where every GM in the league has wasted talent and has bad asset management year after year.

I know the draft is pretty much a crap shoot, but if you look at the teams that are in the top tier year after year, let's use Philly as an example since their model is being discussed in this thread, they bring in good talent through drafting ie Giroux, JVR, Couturier, through trades ie Vorajcek, Simmonds, through signings ie Read, Bryzgalov, etcetc.

They're not the only team in the league who maintain top tier status over long periods of time this way.

I'm not saying that i'm not hopefull about the future, but we need to bring in real hockey personel who aren't stubborn and can realise when they make mistakes and fix them. Very much unlike BG and friends have been doing for the habs over the last decade.

This being said, i'll always be a habs fan! Go habs go!

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04-16-2012, 05:39 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you're going to compare guys like Ribero Streit Ryder AK etc to guys making 800k on the 4th line it's a ridiculous excersise, because just like the 50 man roster that doesn't exist, this isn't baseball and you can't have a 100 mil payroll.

As nice as it would be to have Streit as #6 d-man, he makes 4+ mil per year and would bust the cap.
I'm not comparing those guys with the salary of the players we've let go. My point is that, management chose to let them go and in the process underated their value.

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