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The Philadelphia Model?

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Old
04-22-2012, 05:25 PM
  #401
MathMan
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Fleury is terribly overrated.
It's a combination of being a first-round draft pick (see above), his amazing ability to make routine shots look spectacular (because he's out of position a lot), and people being utterly stupid about assigning win credits to goaltending.

Makes him look like he's the spectacular savior of a winning franchise when in fact his teammates pretty much carry him.

And to think there are people who honestly wanted to give him the Vezina this year. I mean, Darren Dreger, WTF.

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04-22-2012, 05:53 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's a combination of being a first-round draft pick (see above), his amazing ability to make routine shots look spectacular (because he's out of position a lot), and people being utterly stupid about assigning win credits to goaltending.

Makes him look like he's the spectacular savior of a winning franchise when in fact his teammates pretty much carry him.

And to think there are people who honestly wanted to give him the Vezina this year. I mean, Darren Dreger, WTF.
That style of reflex goaltending is really spectacular but I hate it, much like Thomas and Hasek before him. I guess I'm used to "boring" Carey Price kinda saves but it seems much preferable.

And Dreger is by far the worst hockey "insider" in the league. Try to isolate just his rumors and analysis away from all the noise on sportscentre and you'll realize that he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. I dunno how he got his role but he's terrible at it.

I once got into an argument with him on twitter which culminated in being blocked by him. He suggested that John Ferguson Jr. was being considered as a Habs GM, I relentlessly mocked him.

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04-22-2012, 06:43 PM
  #403
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Renaud Lavoie also had Fleury for the Vezina. Sorry but that's ridiculous.

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04-22-2012, 11:20 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He had 12 points in 13 games but 8 of those were on the PP. 5 on 5 he was no longger the same player and benefitted from a lethal PP.

He makes up for the Pronger that was there early on though in a different role(shutdown vs offensive)

They miss the 08-09 version of Pronger, but even without the concussion, he wasn't the same player. His minutes were down the last 2 years.
So PP points don't count then?

You have no idea what you're talking about man. The guy is (was) an absolute beast. You don't know because you're probably not old enough to remember back when we had a guy like Chelios in the lineup. Those kinds of blueliners are absolutely amazing. Pronger can do it all and he was still an awesome player.
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Originally Posted by googlymoogly View Post
Montreal's plan was to build a fast mobile team. It looked like it would work until the league decided to change it's mind and not enforce all the clutching, grabbing, and dirty play they said they wanted to eliminate. Now Montreal must adjust and become a dirty team to compete.
Nothing wrong with builing a fast team, but as much as we liked to think of ourselves as skilled, we weren't all that skilled to begin with. Moreover, the problem was exacerbated by building a smurf team. We didn't have enough size nor did we have enough skill. Being that small up front isn't great but if you're going to do this for top flight skill I can sort of see the reasoning but we weren't even all that skilled to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I'm not arguing that the Gomez trade was bad, but it was not because they traded for a washed up player. It was 95% because of his contract/cap hit.
The contract was bad but that's the least of it. He's a mediocre player at best who's suited better towards the 2nd line and we gave up our core for zero and then gave up a promising young defenseman. The stupid contract was just icing on the cake. Could've just kept our old core and hung onto McD.
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Kaberle was on pace for 45+ points since we got him on less than ideal ice time, don't know too many "washed up" d-men doing that.
Kaberle sucks. He's like a plylon in his own end.

And I think it's absolutely hilarious that you dismiss Pronger as a PP specialst and then turn around and try to pump up Kaberle for the same reason...

See unlike Kaberle, Pronger actually knows how to play D and is capable of clearing the front of his own net. He's also able to smash guys into next year when he wants to. Awesome defenseman but here you are hyping up Kaberle?
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You obviously didn't watch Pronger the last 2 years, he had clearly lost a step if not two. It was masked a bit because he plays on a strong team but he is not the player he was.
Says the guy who's hyping Kaberle.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Actually Fleury's the reason they won this series...
You are correct sir.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:43 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I prefer it from behind. Good move.
Oh oh..



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Old
04-23-2012, 07:27 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Renaud Lavoie also had Fleury for the Vezina. Sorry but that's ridiculous.
Has nothing to do with playoffs. Fleury was actually not that bad at all during the regular season and finished 2nd in wins

The playoffs have nothing to do with the trophies handed out later in June

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04-23-2012, 08:39 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Renaud Lavoie also had Fleury for the Vezina. Sorry but that's ridiculous.
Maybe its because... Euh... He had a good year? He had great moments this year.

But...

Fleury can be great as he can be bad.

If I was the owner of the Pens, I'd get Fleury a great goalie coach. Not to teach him how to stop pucks, but to increase his mental toughness.

Fleury has sick skills but he doesn't always have the winning edge that is needed to win consistently at a high level.

I also think that if Malkin had worked a little less in trying to win the art ross, he might have had more gas left in the tank for when it counts.

Got to give credit to Philly, they were buzing around, over and under the Pens.

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04-23-2012, 08:56 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Has nothing to do with playoffs. Fleury was actually not that bad at all during the regular season and finished 2nd in wins
Wins are a stupid stat for evaluating goalies. All it means is that you play on a good team.

With his sparkling .913 save percentage, Fleury was actually significantly below average this regular season at stopping the puck. Which strikes me as more important when picking the best goaltender in the league, you'd want one that's actually better than the average.

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04-23-2012, 10:13 AM
  #409
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The Vezina goes the either Quick or Lundqvist.

Fleury is only "there" because of wins and because it's Crosby's team.

Pittsburgh would be a Cup contender each year if they had a better goalie. Not to say that he's not good, the guy litteraly took them from bad to were they are now but that's also why he fails. He was like Brodeur but with an inferior team in front.

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04-23-2012, 11:56 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Has nothing to do with playoffs. Fleury was actually not that bad at all during the regular season and finished 2nd in wins

The playoffs have nothing to do with the trophies handed out later in June
I have no idea why so much bashing for Fleury in the regular season. A Fleury who had to deal with not having Crosby in front of him all season long. Or a Letang for half of the season. A Pittsburgh team who has, as a 2nd line, the likes of Dupuis and Sullivan as their wingers. a Dupuis who had a very good year....but who the heck in here would have welcome Dupuis in here, and I'm not even talking about playing him in the 2nd line.....Pittsburgh was not a bad team. But Fleury had some things to say in this.

Having said all of that.....I'M just talking for those who keeps discrediting Fleury.....But it was not award material, let's be honest here. But Quick, Lundqvist and Smith are the guys that should be nominated here. Way ahead of Fleury.

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04-23-2012, 12:02 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I have no idea why so much bashing for Fleury in the regular season.
Because, frankly, he's been average to below average pretty much his entire career in the regular season, including this year.

Yeah, the Pens have had injuries. That didn't stop them from being one of the best defensive clubs in the league this year. It's pretty impressive what they've done despite everyone they've missed, but Fleury has been below-average.

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04-23-2012, 12:48 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Because, frankly, he's been average to below average pretty much his entire career in the regular season, including this year.

Yeah, the Pens have had injuries. That didn't stop them from being one of the best defensive clubs in the league this year. It's pretty impressive what they've done despite everyone they've missed, but Fleury has been below-average.
Their defense is terrible and as WS said they played most of the season without Letang.
Did he have horrible playoffs, absolutely but in the regular season he wasn't that bad

I agree with WS on the nominees, I wouldn't have Fleury in them but I can understand why someone would put him there(# of wins)

My list is
Lundqvist
Quick
Rinne

and a case could be made for Smith as well

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04-23-2012, 01:00 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Their defense is terrible and as WS said they played most of the season without Letang.
No it's not. Pittsburgh is fourth-best in the league in shots against, nestled between Detroit and LA. This does not happen to teams with "terrible defense".

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04-23-2012, 02:35 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
No it's not. Pittsburgh is fourth-best in the league in shots against, nestled between Detroit and LA. This does not happen to teams with "terrible defense".
Pittsburght plays a wide open style though. They give up a lot of chances that other teams wouldn't. Low shots? Okay but he does have to deal with scoring opportunities that you shouldn't have to face. It's just that the Pens are really good at putting the puck in the net themselves.

My feeling on Fleury is that he's a good goalie. Not great but good. He wouldnt' carry a below average or even an average team to a cup. But he's good enough to win with a great one. Then again, I never expected the collapse we saw from him this year, he was awful.

Definitely agree though that he shouldn't be anywhere near the Vezina discussion this year. Quick and Lundqvist ideally should share it as they were both awesome.

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04-23-2012, 03:19 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Pittsburght plays a wide open style though. They give up a lot of chances that other teams wouldn't. Low shots? Okay but he does have to deal with scoring opportunities that you shouldn't have to face. It's just that the Pens are really good at putting the puck in the net themselves.
The Penguins take the most shots in the game (which is why they have the most goals) and, again, allow the fourth-least. If the Pens simply did the run and gun, you'd logically expect to see lots of shots going both ways. Their style isn't so much "wide open hockey" as it is "the Penguins always have the puck". Which they can pull off because of all the talent, and is wise because it's the best way to win in the long run.

They have a very strong team both offensively and defensively. The reason they have a reputation for being weak defensively is twofold:

1- they score a lot (seems like you can't do both, so you if you score a lot you have to be neglecting defense)
2- most importantly, Fleury is average-to-below-average so they give up a lot of goals, but because Fleury has an entirely unjustified reputation as an elite goalie, the defense gets blamed instead.

MAF is the weakest link on their club.

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04-23-2012, 04:13 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's a combination of being a first-round draft pick (see above), his amazing ability to make routine shots look spectacular (because he's out of position a lot), and people being utterly stupid about assigning win credits to goaltending.

Makes him look like he's the spectacular savior of a winning franchise when in fact his teammates pretty much carry him.

And to think there are people who honestly wanted to give him the Vezina this year. I mean, Darren Dreger, WTF.

Fleury is a great goaltender, just lacks a bit in the mental departement..

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04-23-2012, 05:50 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
No it's not. Pittsburgh is fourth-best in the league in shots against, nestled between Detroit and LA. This does not happen to teams with "terrible defense".
Yes it might. Being low in shots against might only mean that they have great numbers in puck possession, yet, when they don't have the puck, they can be terrible at defending it.

I was told not that long ago, that the Rangers D was nothing special. That the only reason why McDonagh played so much is because they didn't have anything else and especially when Staal was hurt. Yet, Rangers are 6th in shots against, .4 behind Pittsburgh. Philadelphia who everybody here thought that they had a terrible D especially without Pronger are 7th in shots against. I think that shot against goes beyond solely the D's work.

I mean, you can take any stats and make them say what you want. Pittsburgh as the 2nd best record when they are being outshooted....does that mean that the goalie keeps them in the game? Does that mean that while being outshot, that Pittsburgh is still able to score so many goals and are more opportunistic than the other team despite being outshot?

Clearly, Fleury has a confidence issue in the playoffs. I'm not doubting that. But people bashing him in the regular season like he's an incredibly bad goalie, makes no sense, as far as I'm concerned.

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04-23-2012, 06:07 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Pr3Va1L View Post
Fleury is a great goaltender, just lacks a bit in the mental departement..
You're way off base...and mental toughness is a pretty big part of being a great goalie.

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04-23-2012, 06:55 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Pittsburght plays a wide open style though. They give up a lot of chances that other teams wouldn't. Low shots? Okay but he does have to deal with scoring opportunities that you shouldn't have to face. It's just that the Pens are really good at putting the puck in the net themselves.

My feeling on Fleury is that he's a good goalie. Not great but good. He wouldnt' carry a below average or even an average team to a cup. But he's good enough to win with a great one. Then again, I never expected the collapse we saw from him this year, he was awful.

Definitely agree though that he shouldn't be anywhere near the Vezina discussion this year. Quick and Lundqvist ideally should share it as they were both awesome.
Solid post.

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04-23-2012, 07:01 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Yes it might. Being low in shots against might only mean that they have great numbers in puck possession, yet, when they don't have the puck, they can be terrible at defending it.
That's a common comeback, but that would mean that the Pens are a rare beast: a team that constantly allows shots of such astoundingly high quality that they will consistently make a good goalie look below average.

I don't buy that. And statistical analysis of shot quality points to the effect being much smaller than this, if it exists at all.

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I mean, you can take any stats and make them say what you want. Pittsburgh as the 2nd best record when they are being outshooted....does that mean that the goalie keeps them in the game?
No, it just means they win a lot, outshot or not. Plus, score effects get into it -- a team that is ahead tends to shoot less than a team that is behind, but the shots go in more often. And a good team like the Pens would naturally lead a lot.

Which brings us to another point about shot quality -- one thing that has been shown is that shooting percentage is higher when a team is ahead and lower when a team is behind. A good team like the Pens would lead a lot, which would tend to drive save percentages up, not down. It suggests Fleury might be even worse than his statistics initially suggest. (I'm not sure the effect would be big enough to be significant, however).

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Clearly, Fleury has a confidence issue in the playoffs. I'm not doubting that. But people bashing him in the regular season like he's an incredibly bad goalie, makes no sense, as far as I'm concerned.
He's not "incredibly bad". Just "clearly average to below average".

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04-23-2012, 07:16 PM
  #421
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That's a common comeback, but that would mean that the Pens are a rare beast: a team that constantly allows shots of such astoundingly high quality that they will consistently make a good goalie look below average.
It happens every so often, usually to teams that have the "best" player(s) in the league on their team. See Gretzky/Kurri/Coffey's Oilers influence on the stats of Grant Fuhr relative to his contemporaries (current career goals against record holder, 1 season top 10 GAA, 3 times barely scraping into the top 10 in SV%, btw) vs the accolades he widely held as being one of the very best goalies in the country over a span of many years - leading into a long career as a goaltending coach and director of player development at the NHL level, mind you. No one looks to take away his Vezina in '87/88 because his SV% was outside of the top 20 that year, for example, nor his induction into the Hall of Fame.

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04-23-2012, 07:38 PM
  #422
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Grant Fuhr was another goalie who was unfairly lionized because he played on a great team.

Here's a pretty good analysis on it: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...leury-of-goals

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04-23-2012, 08:43 PM
  #423
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What's the model where the refs call a bogus penalty to bring on a 5 on 3 to completely change momentum?

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04-23-2012, 09:02 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Grant Fuhr was another goalie who was unfairly lionized because he played on a great team.

Here's a pretty good analysis on it: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...leury-of-goals
I had a good laugh. Lots of BS in there.

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04-23-2012, 09:19 PM
  #425
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I had a good laugh. Lots of BS in there.
The most hilarious part is, I hadn't even heard of that article before just now, lol. Seriously, what are the chances.

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