Blatantly untrue. There are instances of both types having success. Best is a very good team with great goaltending. Montreal needs to become a very good team.
It's not exactly "blatantly untrue". Since Hasek's days in the late 90s, only two Stanley Cup champs have featured a Vezina winner between the pipes, for example: Thomas last year, and Brodeur in '03. Guys like Niemi, Howard, Giguere, Khabibulin, and even Ward/Fleury rarely get "free passes" into top 5 goalie conversations, let alone the label "great". Just sayin'.
Now if you slyly meant "great performances" from goaltenders (be they good OR great), well yeah, that's obviously important when every game is high stakes against tight-checking top quality opposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by domdo345
The fact is, with the way kids train and the systems in place in the CHL, the difference between Plekanec and an early first rounder isn't that far away.
That's far from a fact, and highly dependent on where the line of "early first rounder" is drawn, and what "that far away" might mean. Between physical preparedness, timing, and experience, there are significant gaps between any vet and even the most promising young player, let alone one that is also as fundamentally sound and experienced as Plekanec.
Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 04-13-2012 at 10:46 PM.
It's not exactly "blatantly untrue". Since Hasek's days in the late 90s, only two Stanley Cup champs have featured a Vezina winner between the pipes, for example: Thomas last year, and Brodeur in '03. Guys like Niemi, Howard, Giguere, Khabibulin, and even Ward/Fleury rarely get "free passes" into top 5 goalie conversations, let alone the label "great". Just sayin'.
Now if you slyly meant "great performances" from goaltenders (be they good OR great), well yeah, that's obviously important when every game is high stakes against tight-checking top quality opposition.
I assumed it was obvious the conversation was about 'going further' in the playoffs.
Maybe I misread the poster I quoted, but the quest is to
compete for the cup. Virtually every cup winner in recent history had exceptional goaltending.
I can't think of any SC winners with a good team and average goaltending.
I assumed it was obvious the conversation was about 'going further' in the playoffs.
Maybe I misread the poster I quoted, but the quest is to
compete for the cup. Virtually every cup winner in recent history had exceptional goaltending.
I can't think of any SC winners with a good team and average goaltending.
Yeah, that's right. But what's not clear is whether you're submitting that it's "easier" to go farther in the playoffs on a "1st seed" team with a goalie like Niemi/Giguere/Howard/Fleury/Halak, or an "8th seed" team with a goalie like Thomas/Brodeur/Lundqvist/Luongo/Price. I think that's sort of where the other guy is heading, since obviously a 1st seed team with Thomas/Brodeur/Lundqvist/Luongo/Price would be favoured over an 8th seed team with Niemi/Giguere/Howard/Fleury/Halak. But again, very rarely has one of the very best goalies, in any given year, ended that season by hoisting the Cup.
It's not exactly "blatantly untrue". Since Hasek's days in the late 90s, only two Stanley Cup champs have featured a Vezina winner between the pipes, for example: Thomas last year, and Brodeur in '03. Guys like Niemi, Howard, Giguere, Khabibulin, and even Ward/Fleury rarely get "free passes" into top 5 goalie conversations, let alone the label "great". Just sayin'.
Now if you slyly meant "great performances" from goaltenders (be they good OR great), well yeah, that's obviously important when every game is high stakes against tight-checking top quality opposition.
That's far from a fact, and highly dependent on where the line of "early first rounder" is drawn, and what "that far away" might mean. Between physical preparedness, timing, and experience, there are significant gaps between any vet and even the most promising young player, let alone one that is also as fundamentally sound and experienced as Plekanec.
Ok so tell me frankly, would you take Schenn or Couturier + assets like voracek or Simmonds for Plekanec? Off course ATM Plekanec is better. But Plekanec offensive creativity is limited. If we put him on the wing and let him exploit his speed then I am all for it.
You have to trade top talent to get good assets they had the balls to do it, its not by trading guys like spacek, gill that you're gonna get good stuff.
Put Price on the block and you will get good stuff in return ,a good team with an average goalie will go further than an average team with good goaltending
Yeah, but I've been saying this for years. We should have traded Markov when we had the chance, traded Souray before he was a UFA etc. I have no problem trading talent for young promising players, but it wasn't as if getting Schenn and the boys was huge gamble.
I know we didn't have a Richards or Carter, but this team would never had attempted a deal like that, with PG or Gainey running things.
Ok so tell me frankly, would you take Schenn or Couturier + assets like voracek or Simmonds for Plekanec? Off course ATM Plekanec is better. But Plekanec offensive creativity is limited. If we put him on the wing and let him exploit his speed then I am all for it.
your comparison makes no sense...
before the trade, Flyers already had a C who showed he could do better than Richards...
not only did they get good assets in that trade, but by trading Richards they made room for a better player (Giroux)...
tomorrow we trade Plekanec, who's going to be our Giroux ? ?
Yeah, that's right. But what's not clear is whether you're submitting that it's "easier" to go farther in the playoffs on a "1st seed" team with a goalie like Niemi/Giguere/Howard/Fleury/Halak, or an "8th seed" team with a goalie like Thomas/Brodeur/Lundqvist/Luongo/Price. I think that's sort of where the other guy is heading, since obviously a 1st seed team with Thomas/Brodeur/Lundqvist/Luongo/Price would be favoured over an 8th seed team with Niemi/Giguere/Howard/Fleury/Halak. But again, very rarely has one of the very best goalies, in any given year, ended that season by hoisting the Cup.
By best goalies, I think of top tier, which of course is disputable whether to use skill, stats, or a combination of both.
Regardless, SC winners usually have a top tier goaltender playing fantastic, as opposed to a bottom tier guy performing miracles.
I consider Price to be top tier in skill and his stats belie the horrible results of the team this season.
To trade him for some skilled forwards, or worse, potentially skilled forwards, is moving further from a cup, not closer, as far as I can see.
before the trade, Flyers already had a C who showed he could do better than Richards...
not only did they get good assets in that trade, but by trading Richards they made room for a better player (Giroux)...
tomorrow we trade Plekanec, who's going to be our Giroux ? ?
We have DD centering the first line. Honestly, I know he had bad wingers and all but could the 2nd line sucked more this year? Plekanec shifts are always spend in his zone(defensive matching lines) but at some point he has to do something else than defend for 30-35 seconds, get the puck out and change.
It doesn't matter if its the centers or wingers who are big but I think it makes a lot of sense to have balanced size on the lines in your top 6. If you've got a small guy like say DD... it makes a lot of sense to flank him with bigger wingers like we've done.
Now we just need one more big wingers if we don't want more than one small player per line. I think we are slowly getting there.
If we draft a forward like Grigo, Galchenyuk or Forsberg it could help down the road too in 1 or 2 years by adding another big guy to our core, cause Cole is not gonna be here for 10 more years.
We have DD centering the first line. Honestly, I know he had bad wingers and all but could the 2nd line sucked more this year? Plekanec shifts are always spend in his zone(defensive matching lines) but at some point he has to do something else than defend for 30-35 seconds, get the puck out and change.
Plekanec centering the 'sucking' second line with bad wingers, tough match ups and defensive zone starts got 8 points less on the year than DD with the two best wingers, easier match ups, etc.
Plekanec centering the 'sucking' second line with bad wingers, tough match ups and defensive zone starts got 8 points less on the year than DD with the two best wingers, easier match ups, etc.
Yep but DD looked like he was/still is progressing and had 40 e/s points versus 28 for Plekanec. I like Plekanec but put him on the wings or get as much value as possible. He doesn't have enough creativity to center an offensive first line.
Edit: Put him on the wings when the freshly draft top 3 will be able to center the second line (2-3 years away)
Yep but DD looked like he was/still is progressing and had 40 e/s points versus 28 for Plekanec. I like Plekanec but put him on the wings or get as much value as possible. He doesn't have enough creativity to center an offensive first line.
you think DD would have done better playing with Bourque, Darche, Moen, White, Geoffrion, etc ?
By best goalies, I think of top tier, which of course is disputable whether to use skill, stats, or a combination of both.
Regardless, SC winners usually have a top tier goaltender playing fantastic, as opposed to a bottom tier guy performing miracles.
I consider Price to be top tier in skill and his stats belie the horrible results of the team this season.
To trade him for some skilled forwards, or worse, potentially skilled forwards, is moving further from a cup, not closer, as far as I can see.
Entirely debatable, since I don't think anyone (including Hawks coaching/management) who considered Niemi a "top tier" goaltender in 2009/10, for example. And certain statistical manipulations have shown that even Fleury hasn't always produced as well as the performance of the team in front of him would have us expect. It's up to subjectivity regarding skill and team results to boost him back up. Also, while Giguere's '07 playoff performance was extraordinary, I don't think there has ever been a solid argument for him being a "top tier" goalie, regardless of the salary he was ultimately able to command at one (well-timed) point. Even in some of his best statistical years, he was actually "out-performed" (statistically) by his back-up at the time (Gerber, Hiller), so who's to say that his raw numbers accurately reflect where he "ranked" among contemporary keepers.
So, I guess I submit that you need a fairly wide definition of "top tier", that can't be heavily stats-dependent, to include the likes of Niemi, Fleury, Giguere or even Howard. I also submit that most people would agree, though, that all of those teams (Hawks, Pens, Ducks, Red Wings) were "built for the playoffs" (certainly captured high playoff seeds). And since they represent the bulk of Cup winning goalies in "recent" years, I could see how someone could "conclude" that a strong team with an "adequate" goaltender (who plays great, if you prefer) has been the more successful "model".
Strong teams with "top tier" goalies has been (surprisingly) relatively less frequently successful (Bruins, Devils). Good(/bad) teams with great goaltending has been even less frequently successful (Carolina). The swing vote depends on how you would classify someone like Tampa Bay, but we start getting into slightly irrelevant past at that point. A bit further back though, how good was a 35 year old Roy vs. the strength of the team assembled in front of him? How much should we weigh an intangible like "clutch". Etc, etc.
Not that I'd bet money based on any of this... it's just how it has played out.
Philly has a great eye for HIGH END talent. They have struck gold on multiple occasions with Carter, Richards and Giroux. But besides that, their team is a product of astute and aggressive trades.
Its truly remarkable.
Loving how Talbot is coming back to bite the Pens.
you think DD would have done better playing with Bourque, Darche, Moen, White, Geoffrion, etc ?
really ?
DD earned to play with offensive line mates. He started on the 3rd line and received little PP time early on. Plek had a hard time with AK and Cammy. Not entirely his fault but still. My point is that Plek has peaked offensively while DD improved all year long. We know what we're getting from Plek and I don't think we're a contender if he is used in an offensive role. That's all. It's my opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree because i have a ****ing final tomorrow at 8am. **** my life
Yep but DD looked like he was/still is progressing and had 40 e/s points versus 28 for Plekanec. I like Plekanec but put him on the wings or get as much value as possible. He doesn't have enough creativity to center an offensive first line.
Edit: Put him on the wings when the freshly draft top 3 will be able to center the second line (2-3 years away)
No one said his role is to be a 1st line center. He's making the money he's making because he's a versatile and reliable player that's effective on both ends of the ice as well as on special teams. Centering the 2nd line and shutting down the opposing teams' top lines while producing 50-60 points is a perfect role for him. No need to toss him aside.
So basically, bad D and bad goaltending is the way to go?
Riiiiight.
If Pittsburgh had an inkling of how to play D (or if their goalies weren't wildly unpredictable), they'd make a series of this.
POs games shouldn't have games with combined scores of 10+ goals. That's just terrible.
Firstly, Flyers reached the finals with BOUCHER. That means your team was pretty damn good. Second of all, bad defense? With Pronger they are a top 6 defensive club. Thirdly, they attempted to, and partly did address their goaltending woes.
The strategy is trade players while their value is highest or trade for players while their value is lowest AT ALL TIMES. This in my view, along with lots of money to spend, are the keys to Philly's rebuild/retool success.
