HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

I am sorry Homer

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-17-2012, 11:14 AM
  #151
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I have to go change a tire now (without a goddamned jack, somehow). If you search someone compiled an extensive list of all Homer's moves and the impacts they had. Some of them DID have negative impact, and they were stupid.

I'll look later but I don't remember who posted it or what the thread was called.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=780330

At the entry draft in 2003, the strongest draft in league history, the Flyers have the 11th and 24th overall pick. They take Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. In 2006 our first round pick is Claude Giroux. We have a strong young team, but after the lockout, we have the worst season in Flyer History finishing last in the NHL.

Holmgren was put in charge October 22nd 2006 replacing a burnt out Bobby Clarke. Hitchcock is fired the same day and replaced with John Stevens. At the trade deadline in February 2007, Holmgren trades Forsberg for Parent, Upshall and a 1st and 3rd rounder, trades Zhitnik to Atlanta for Coburn, trades Calder to Chicago for Kukkonen and a 3rd rounder, trades a 2nd to Buffalo for Martin Biron. We get the 2nd overall pick and draft James Van Riemsdyk. In the summer of 2007 we trade Nashvilles 1st rounder back to them for Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell and quickly lock them up to long term deals – this is the first time a trade is made for the “rights” to soon to be UFA’s. Daniel Briere is signed for 6.5 million per year, he is the top free agent of the year - Gomez and Drury sign in New York for 7.5 million per. This is the first deal in the NHL that is “front loaded” meaning that Briere will make the majority of his money in the first 5 years of his deal and signs for less than market value. At the draft we trade up in the 2nd round to get Kevin Marshall, trade Joni Pitkanen and Geoff Sanderson to Edmonton for Lupol and Jason Smith, trade Eager for Vandermeer and a 3rd rounder for Modry.

At the deadline in 2008, we ship Vandermeer to Calgary for their third round pick and trade Alex Picard and a 2nd round pick to Tampa for Prospal. Some say because Stevens has since been fired he was a bad choice. On the contrary, Stevens was a players coach and was given Terry Murray to help with the nuances of the job - this combination helped the Flyers go from last in the NHL to the conference finals in one year.

In the summer of 08, Prospal is traded for a couple of picks (one of whom is our future goalie in Joacim Eriksson), Umberger is traded for a 1st and 3rd rounder (Sbiza and Bourdon), we trade a 1st rounder to Washington for Steve Eminger and a 3rd, Gauthier and a 2nd rounder are traded to LA for prospects, basically we dump Gauthiers salary and lose a pick. We trade LA prospect + 4th rounder for Andrew Alberts, sign Aaron Asham. During the year we trade Eminger, Downie and a 4th to Tampa for Matt Carle and a 3rd, Randy Jones who cashed in on his playoff performance the year before to get too much money is waived and picked up by LA. Due to Daniel Briere coming back from injury at the deadline, we are forced to cut salary and trade Upshall and a 2nd rounder to Phoenix for Dan Carcillo. The result is we finish in 5th in the East tied with Pittsburgh and lose in the first round in a series many believe could have gone the other way had Philly finished off Pitt in game 6 when they were up 3-0 before the Carcillo fight – Pitt wins the cup that year.

The summer of 2009, we trade an overpaid Lupol, Sbiza, two 1st’s and a 3rd to Anaheim for Chris Pronger. The offseason we sign Blair Betts, Ian Laps, Ray Emery and Brian Boucher and let Mike Knuble, Martin Biron and Nittymaki walk (all of whom wanted too much money). In season we trade OK to Detroit for Ville Leino. The result is we are in the Stanley Cup Finals. So now you have all the facts of every deal made in the Paul Holmgren era. This is how the present day Philadelphia Flyers have been re-built.

I added recent moves below:
May 2010: Sergei Bobrovsky signs a three year entry level deal (Free agent)
June 2010: Michael Leighton is signed for 2yr, $3.1M
July 2010: We trade a 2nd round pick (Lucas Lessio) for Andrej Meszaros
Signed Jody Shelley, Sean Odonnell, Nik Zherdev
Trade Simon Gagne for Matt Walker and a fourth
November 2010: Signed Claude Giroux for 3 years 11.25M, Signed free agent Brandon Manning
Jeff Carter signed 11 yr/$58M
Feb 2011: Trade 2011 First (Stuart Percy) and 3rd (Josh Leivo) for Kris Versteeg, trade Michael Chaput + Greg Moore for Tom Sestito
March 2011: SIgned Matt Read, Harry Zolnierczyk, Olivier Lauridson
May 2011: Niko Hovinen signed as a free agent
July 2011: Trade Matt Clackson, 2012 3rd rounder, Pittsburgh's 2011 3rd Rounder (Harrison Ruopp) for Ilya Bryzgalov and sign him for 9 years 5.7M per
Sign Jaromir Jagr, Andreas Lilja as free agents
Trade Jeff Carter for Jakub Voracek, 2011 1st rounder (Sean Couturier), 2011 3rd rounder (Nick Cousins)
Trade Mike Richards for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn and 2012 2nd rounder
Trade Darrell Powe to Minnesota for 2013 3rd rounder
Trade Kris Versteeg to Florida for 2012 or 2013 second rounder and San Jose's 2012 third rounder
Sign James Van Riemsdyk for 6 years 4.25M per.
Trade LA's 2012 2nd Rounder, Minnesota's 2013 3rd Rounder for Nik Grossmann
Trade Jon Kalinski, Fla's 2012 2nd Rounder, 2013 4th Rounder for Pavel Kubina


Last edited by phillyfanatic: 04-17-2012 at 11:35 AM.
phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:20 AM
  #152
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
No, I'm arguing that not understanding the 35+ clause in the CBA could have a more signification impact. That giving a shaky goaltender with mixed playoff history 56 million dollars and full No Movement Clause could have a more significant impact. We are talking about a potential 10 million+ in cap space that very could end up being complete dead weight. Good GMs have been fired for much less.

The other issue I have is how now Homer seems completely escapes blame for the past seasons. Everyone credits him for getting rid of a core that wasn't capable of winning a cup, and for going out and trying to get a real goaltender. Wtf? Homer is the one that build that core. Homer is the one that said he could win with AHL goaltending.

FWIW The main core of Richards and Carer were drafted under Clarke's watch, going into the Lockout... They were the ones to lead the Flyers for years to come. Homer did lock them up for a decade and then, when it became apparent that a culture change was required, Homer not only moved them -- while he still controlled them -- but obtained a terrific return for hem.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:27 AM
  #153
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
I'm a a loss to understand this... I believe Coburn is the Flyers longest tenured current Flyers player, and he was obtained in a trade by Homer... who are you talking about?
This is funny if it is a joke... I left my joke-o-meter at work though, so, Claude Giroux was drafted under Clarke's regime. He forgot his name when he was to announce the selection.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:44 AM
  #154
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
FWIW The main core of Richards and Carer were drafted under Clarke's watch, going into the Lockout... They were the ones to lead the Flyers for years to come. Homer did lock them up for a decade and then, when it became apparent that a culture change was required, Homer not only moved them -- while he still controlled them -- but obtained a terrific return for hem.
Homer was very much part of the team that drafted Richards and Carter. Pretty sure he was responsible for the draft in that year as Assistant GM.

phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:47 AM
  #155
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
This is funny if it is a joke... I left my joke-o-meter at work though, so, Claude Giroux was drafted under Clarke's regime. He forgot his name when he was to announce the selection.
I'm not sure if this ties into my question or not... but yes Clarke was set back by having the targeted player in the First Round pulled out from under them at the last moment -- details I forget at this moment -- so he had to quickly revert to the alternate choice as he wen to the podium. Giroux's name skipped his mind and he prompted his people to remind him -- to be fair, it wasn't a common name -- he was furnished the name and gave it... It was comical and everybody I believe has taken it as that and for what it was. It forever will be an interesting and amusing anecdote in Draft Day lore.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:49 AM
  #156
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Homer was very much part of the team that drafted Richards and Carter. Pretty sure he was responsible for the draft in that year as Assistant GM.
Correct. Before becoming GM, Homer basically ran the draft for the Flyers.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:54 AM
  #157
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Homer was very much part of the team that drafted Richards and Carter. Pretty sure he was responsible for the draft in that year as Assistant GM.
Just as Homer is responsible for everything under his watch now, Clarke was responsible for everything when he was GM... Homer may have been the driving force that helped Clarke decide to pull the triggers on Richards and Carter, but ultimately it was Clarke who takes the credit and/or blame for them... same with Giroux; Homer can take pride in his scouting, but Clarke had the final say and could have gone another route had he seen fit to do so.

Homer could also be taken to task for the last in the NHL team that Clarke amassed... but again, Clarke was responsible when all was said and done... and rightfully so, IMO.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:54 AM
  #158
FreshPerspective
Ed finally concedes!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
I'm not sure if this ties into my question or not... but yes Clarke was set back by having the targeted player in the First Round pulled out from under them at the last moment -- details I forget at this moment -- so he had to quickly revert to the alternate choice as he wen to the podium. Giroux's name skipped his mind and he prompted his people to remind him -- to be fair, it wasn't a common name -- he was furnished the name and gave it... It was comical and everybody I believe has taken it as that and for what it was. It forever will be an interesting and amusing anecdote in Draft Day lore.
The player they targeted was Bobby Sanguinetti. Rangers thought they got one over on us but guess we had the last laugh..

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:57 AM
  #159
FreshPerspective
Ed finally concedes!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Just as Homer is responsible for everything under his watch now, Clarke was responsible for everything when he was GM... Homer may have been the driving force that helped Clarke decide to pull the triggers on Richards and Carter, but ultimately it was Clarke who takes the credit and/or blame for them... same with Giroux; Homer can take pride in his scouting, but Clarke had the final say and could have gone another route had he seen fit to do so.

Homer could also be taken to task for the last in the NHL team that Clarke amassed... but again, Clarke was responsible when all was said and done... and rightfully so, IMO.
Clarke was George Bush and Holmgren is Obama...we know Dubya's legacy now...crashing the economy ...Obama's is still not completely clear

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:58 AM
  #160
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Correct. Before becoming GM, Homer basically ran the draft for the Flyers.
That was a function he oversaw IIRC... Can you take away the Couturier drafting from Homer as being scouted and suggested by his team? The GM gets the blame and earns the credit for everything that happens under his watch... that's the way of the World.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:04 PM
  #161
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
The player they targeted was Bobby Sanguinetti. Rangers thought they got one over on us but guess we had the last laugh..
Correctomundo

BTW: It must have taken all of Clarke's faculties to remember 'Sanguinetti'... saying it in his head repeatedly as the clock ticked... the sudden change was unrecoverable without help.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:07 PM
  #162
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Clarke was George Bush and Holmgren is Obama...we know Dubya's legacy now...crashing the economy ...Obama's is still not completely clear
Homer took what he was dealt and turned it into a winning hand... not once did I hear him whine about what his predecessor left him.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:45 PM
  #163
FreshPerspective
Ed finally concedes!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Homer took what he was dealt and turned it into a winning hand... not once did I hear him whine about what his predecessor left him.
This is true...can't have it both ways and say you delivered us from the brink and then fall back on that crutch when criticized for things still not being great...

It would be funny though if Holmgren threw Clarke under the bus....I mean Clarke really left him a crappy hand to play with.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:47 PM
  #164
Coppy
Registered User
 
Coppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
FWIW The main core of Richards and Carer were drafted under Clarke's watch, going into the Lockout... They were the ones to lead the Flyers for years to come. Homer did lock them up for a decade and then, when it became apparent that a culture change was required, Homer not only moved them -- while he still controlled them -- but obtained a terrific return for hem.
Homer likely had a lot to do with drafting both players. But that aside, Homlgren was the one that built the team around them, and locked each up long term. He also deserves credit for putting each in a leadership role and contributing to the supposed sense of entitlement that each had.

BTW, I'm not in the camp that believes that Richards and Carter were whiny brats that would never win here. I liked both players. I'm just saying that if you want to give credit to Homlgren for getting rid of a toxic core, than at the same time, you must criticize him for putting that core in place.

Coppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:48 PM
  #165
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,506
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
No, I'm arguing that not understanding the 35+ clause in the CBA could have a more signification impact. That giving a shaky goaltender with mixed playoff history 56 million dollars and full No Movement Clause could have a more significant impact. We are talking about a potential 10 million+ in cap space that very could end up being complete dead weight. Good GMs have been fired for much less.
Ok the 35+ deal with Pronger is another mistake. How much that has been a negative effect is not a certainty. If he were healthy that contract wouldn't be a negative at all, and if he is LTIR'd the rest of his career it won't either. So yes, he made a mistake. Did it have a negative impact? Not yet. If it does next season or in the future, then come back to me. Same thing with the Bryz contract. Could that contract screw things up? Sure it could. Could Bryz also win a Vezina in the next 8 seasons? Absolutely. So why is it ok to call that a negative for something that hasn't happened yet and may never happen but not ok to call it a success for something that hasn't happened yet and may never happen (or at least call it a wash at this point because it is one season in to a 9 year deal)? That is my principal problem I have with all this negativity directed at Homer. His mistakes, while certainly are present, have not had the negative impact people act like they do.

Quote:
The other issue I have is how now Homer seems completely escapes blame for the past seasons. Everyone credits him for getting rid of a core that wasn't capable of winning a cup, and for going out and trying to get a real goaltender. Wtf? Homer is the one that build that core. Homer is the one that said he could win with AHL goaltending.
Homer did not draft Carter or Richards. Aside from that, another thing that people fail to realize is that there is no telling what would have happened in previous seasons if a different goalie was there. Different goalie means different skaters in all likelihood (I don't remember the cap situation, but I imagine replacing Boosh or Leighton with a "real" goalie would have meant trading other players on the team). This means that there is no guarantee the team would have been better just by getting a different goalie or even a group of different goalies/defenders/forwards. It's possible that they could have been better, but they also could have been worse. It also comes down to who was available and who would have been given up or what kind of contract was given. not every player will accept every offer (this isn't NHL12) and not every team will accept every trade. I've made this argument before and been laughed out of the thread, but it is something you can't deny. Go ahead and make references to the episode of South Park, if you like, but that's a fact. You change the goalie means you change other players means you change the outcome of the season. Butterfly Effect, agnostic theories, whatever you want to call it, that is how the world works. Could turn out better, could turn out worse.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:56 PM
  #166
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,506
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=780330

At the entry draft in 2003, the strongest draft in league history, the Flyers have the 11th and 24th overall pick. They take Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. In 2006 our first round pick is Claude Giroux. We have a strong young team, but after the lockout, we have the worst season in Flyer History finishing last in the NHL.

Holmgren was put in charge October 22nd 2006 replacing a burnt out Bobby Clarke. Hitchcock is fired the same day and replaced with John Stevens. At the trade deadline in February 2007, Holmgren trades Forsberg for Parent, Upshall and a 1st and 3rd rounder, trades Zhitnik to Atlanta for Coburn, trades Calder to Chicago for Kukkonen and a 3rd rounder, trades a 2nd to Buffalo for Martin Biron. We get the 2nd overall pick and draft James Van Riemsdyk. In the summer of 2007 we trade Nashvilles 1st rounder back to them for Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell and quickly lock them up to long term deals – this is the first time a trade is made for the “rights” to soon to be UFA’s. Daniel Briere is signed for 6.5 million per year, he is the top free agent of the year - Gomez and Drury sign in New York for 7.5 million per. This is the first deal in the NHL that is “front loaded” meaning that Briere will make the majority of his money in the first 5 years of his deal and signs for less than market value. At the draft we trade up in the 2nd round to get Kevin Marshall, trade Joni Pitkanen and Geoff Sanderson to Edmonton for Lupol and Jason Smith, trade Eager for Vandermeer and a 3rd rounder for Modry.

At the deadline in 2008, we ship Vandermeer to Calgary for their third round pick and trade Alex Picard and a 2nd round pick to Tampa for Prospal. Some say because Stevens has since been fired he was a bad choice. On the contrary, Stevens was a players coach and was given Terry Murray to help with the nuances of the job - this combination helped the Flyers go from last in the NHL to the conference finals in one year.

In the summer of 08, Prospal is traded for a couple of picks (one of whom is our future goalie in Joacim Eriksson), Umberger is traded for a 1st and 3rd rounder (Sbiza and Bourdon), we trade a 1st rounder to Washington for Steve Eminger and a 3rd, Gauthier and a 2nd rounder are traded to LA for prospects, basically we dump Gauthiers salary and lose a pick. We trade LA prospect + 4th rounder for Andrew Alberts, sign Aaron Asham. During the year we trade Eminger, Downie and a 4th to Tampa for Matt Carle and a 3rd, Randy Jones who cashed in on his playoff performance the year before to get too much money is waived and picked up by LA. Due to Daniel Briere coming back from injury at the deadline, we are forced to cut salary and trade Upshall and a 2nd rounder to Phoenix for Dan Carcillo. The result is we finish in 5th in the East tied with Pittsburgh and lose in the first round in a series many believe could have gone the other way had Philly finished off Pitt in game 6 when they were up 3-0 before the Carcillo fight – Pitt wins the cup that year.

The summer of 2009, we trade an overpaid Lupol, Sbiza, two 1st’s and a 3rd to Anaheim for Chris Pronger. The offseason we sign Blair Betts, Ian Laps, Ray Emery and Brian Boucher and let Mike Knuble, Martin Biron and Nittymaki walk (all of whom wanted too much money). In season we trade OK to Detroit for Ville Leino. The result is we are in the Stanley Cup Finals. So now you have all the facts of every deal made in the Paul Holmgren era. This is how the present day Philadelphia Flyers have been re-built.

I added recent moves below:
May 2010: Sergei Bobrovsky signs a three year entry level deal (Free agent)
June 2010: Michael Leighton is signed for 2yr, $3.1M
July 2010: We trade a 2nd round pick (Lucas Lessio) for Andrej Meszaros
Signed Jody Shelley, Sean Odonnell, Nik Zherdev
Trade Simon Gagne for Matt Walker and a fourth
November 2010: Signed Claude Giroux for 3 years 11.25M, Signed free agent Brandon Manning
Jeff Carter signed 11 yr/$58M
Feb 2011: Trade 2011 First (Stuart Percy) and 3rd (Josh Leivo) for Kris Versteeg, trade Michael Chaput + Greg Moore for Tom Sestito
March 2011: SIgned Matt Read, Harry Zolnierczyk, Olivier Lauridson
May 2011: Niko Hovinen signed as a free agent
July 2011: Trade Matt Clackson, 2012 3rd rounder, Pittsburgh's 2011 3rd Rounder (Harrison Ruopp) for Ilya Bryzgalov and sign him for 9 years 5.7M per
Sign Jaromir Jagr, Andreas Lilja as free agents
Trade Jeff Carter for Jakub Voracek, 2011 1st rounder (Sean Couturier), 2011 3rd rounder (Nick Cousins)
Trade Mike Richards for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn and 2012 2nd rounder
Trade Darrell Powe to Minnesota for 2013 3rd rounder
Trade Kris Versteeg to Florida for 2012 or 2013 second rounder and San Jose's 2012 third rounder
Sign James Van Riemsdyk for 6 years 4.25M per.
Trade LA's 2012 2nd Rounder, Minnesota's 2013 3rd Rounder for Nik Grossmann
Trade Jon Kalinski, Fla's 2012 2nd Rounder, 2013 4th Rounder for Pavel Kubina
So in this thread I see some mistakes that Homer made. Could someone who is on the opposite point of view as me explain which of these negative moves have hurt more than the positive moves. As I said earlier, the top three mistakes vs. the top three good moves and what their respective impacts were. I don't think anyone would argue that there are more bad than good moves, so the bad moves must have to be pretty bad in the eyes of the other side of this argument or the good moves aren't as good as I would make them out to be to have the feelings they have about Homer.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:02 PM
  #167
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
Homer likely had a lot to do with drafting both players. But that aside, Homlgren was the one that built the team around them, and locked each up long term. He also deserves credit for putting each in a leadership role and contributing to the supposed sense of entitlement that each had.

BTW, I'm not in the camp that believes that Richards and Carter were whiny brats that would never win here. I liked both players. I'm just saying that if you want to give credit to Homlgren for getting rid of a toxic core, than at the same time, you must criticize him for putting that core in place.
My stance is that we don't know why the culture change was deemed necessary... just that it appears that it was deemed so.

Everything that Homer gave Carter and Richards was his responsibility... as was it true that everything he gathered in in moving the contracts was also in his column.

One thing I have to say is that Homer played his cards completely correct in deciding to do what had to do before the power he gave them in their contracts kicked in through the CBA Rules. Had their clauses kicked in the return could have been considerably less, and maybe not at all had they held their ground and not waived their clauses... Is there any chance in the World Carter would have accepted that trade to Columbus?... Could those two have been split up?

Toxic core or merely great assets, Homer did give them what they got and then freed up their contracts from the Organization when their services were better served elsewhere with their returns setting up the Flyers for years to come. I was shocked at the July 1st moves and didn't know what to think... as time passed I began to see that the Flyers are better off, but I have nothing against Richards and Carter whatsoever.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:11 PM
  #168
Coppy
Registered User
 
Coppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok the 35+ deal with Pronger is another mistake. How much that has been a negative effect is not a certainty. If he were healthy that contract wouldn't be a negative at all, and if he is LTIR'd the rest of his career it won't either. So yes, he made a mistake. Did it have a negative impact? Not yet. If it does next season or in the future, then come back to me. Same thing with the Bryz contract. Could that contract screw things up? Sure it could. Could Bryz also win a Vezina in the next 8 seasons? Absolutely. So why is it ok to call that a negative for something that hasn't happened yet and may never happen but not ok to call it a success for something that hasn't happened yet and may never happen (or at least call it a wash at this point because it is one season in to a 9 year deal)?
Pronger could live out the rest of his contract on LTIR (which still has negative ramifications btw)
Bryz could win a Vezina
Brayden Schenn could have a career altering injury
Sean Couturier could end up never developing the way people think he will
Jeff Carter could score 45 goals next season.

A lot of things could happen that would change how we look at those moves. But at present, you can't question that if the Carter/Richard trades were successes, the Brzy and Pronger contracts weren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That is my principal problem I have with all this negativity directed at Homer. His mistakes, while certainly are present, have not had the negative impact people act like they do.
Are you going to argue that Bryz hasn't had a negative impact in his first season?

And Pronger being on LTIR meant the Flyers couldn't bank any caproom for the deadline, limiting the moves they could have made. Better get used to that because its probably going to be happening for the next 5 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Homer did not draft Carter or Richards. Aside from that, another thing that people fail to realize is that there is no telling what would have happened in previous seasons if a different goalie was there. Different goalie means different skaters in all likelihood (I don't remember the cap situation, but I imagine replacing Boosh or Leighton with a "real" goalie would have meant trading other players on the team). This means that there is no guarantee the team would have been better just by getting a different goalie or even a group of different goalies/defenders/forwards. It's possible that they could have been better, but they also could have been worse. It also comes down to who was available and who would have been given up or what kind of contract was given. not every player will accept every offer (this isn't NHL12) and not every team will accept every trade. I've made this argument before and been laughed out of the thread, but it is something you can't deny. Go ahead and make references to the episode of South Park, if you like, but that's a fact. You change the goalie means you change other players means you change the outcome of the season. Butterfly Effect, agnostic theories, whatever you want to call it, that is how the world works. Could turn out better, could turn out worse.
This is exactly what I am saying. Homer made the decision to adopt a strategy of sacrificing goaltending for depth. After last season, he decided that strategy failed, and gave out 5.6 million per year to a goaltender. So if the strategy failed, why does he not deserve any blame for its failure?

Coppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:23 PM
  #169
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
I'm a a loss to understand this... I believe Coburn is the Flyers longest tenured current Flyers player, and he was obtained in a trade by Homer... who are you talking about?
Claude Giroux is the only player on the Flyers who was obtained before Holmgren became the GM.

Psuhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:28 PM
  #170
El Dandy*
...Menace To Society
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dry Island
Posts: 9,767
vCash: 500
Here's the deal with Bryz, regardless of his first year of play:

Homer had the idea that he could float on with a glorified AHL goalie as long as we had a Top 9 full of 20+ goal scorers and 6 d-men who were all Top 4 or better.

He realized he had made a terrible mistake (another mistake he realized was the 2 decade deals he handed out and the need for a change).

So what is a Homer to do..he calls a spade and spade and moves on from his failed theory. He went out and signed the best available option. Like it or not, Bryzgalov was the best available and Homer got him. Whether you or I like Bryz doesn't matter, fact is he was the best option available during the time we were ready to commit for a goalie. He recognized his flawed philosophy and did his damdest to correct it. Oh, he also admitted a mistake and got out from under 2 decade long contracts. Yes he's the one who signed them, but he is also the one he got phenomenal assets in return and also got them off the books so it's a wash.

Pronger is Pronger. You still make that deal with Pronger. It was the right move. He could be healthy all 82 and be the world class player we know he is until the end of his deal. Or he can be injured and never be the same. Or he can be something in between.

It's easy for you to make all the right throws on Monday morning.

El Dandy* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:29 PM
  #171
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
I'm not sure if this ties into my question or not... but yes Clarke was set back by having the targeted player in the First Round pulled out from under them at the last moment -- details I forget at this moment -- so he had to quickly revert to the alternate choice as he wen to the podium. Giroux's name skipped his mind and he prompted his people to remind him -- to be fair, it wasn't a common name -- he was furnished the name and gave it... It was comical and everybody I believe has taken it as that and for what it was. It forever will be an interesting and amusing anecdote in Draft Day lore.
Right, and the person you forgot was Giroux. I'm sorry if I'm being dense and missing something here, but I thought it was a bit funny.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:34 PM
  #172
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post

Are you going to argue that Bryz hasn't had a negative impact in his first season?

And Pronger being on LTIR meant the Flyers couldn't bank any caproom for the deadline, limiting the moves they could have made. Better get used to that because its probably going to be happening for the next 5 years.
Not speaking for him nor anyone else, but... I don't think at this point we can say Bryz has had a negative effect this season. The season is still going in the PostSeason form and the team with all the rookies has won 47 games, which is he most wins in many many seasons... And of course the future is yet to be deermined, as is the future of THIS season.

Pronger was hit with a freak accident and the crummy (IMO) CBA 35+ rule does screw up the future if he cannot go again (and the next CBA doesn't rectify it)... That said, I directly tie in the 2010 SC Run with Pronger being here... that alone was worth so much to me personally. If Pronger returns, which I now seeing a possibilty where I once didn't -- his being able to withstand the noise and lights of the game from the stands says a lot to me... as does his latest AT&T radio ads where he sounds great -- if he returns to half what he once was, the team will be in a much better position, and the trade/re-signing may prove to still be an Earthshattering one if it can bring a Cup or some chances for one.

I'd hold off on deeming the Pronger and Bryz deals bad ones at this point in time.

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:38 PM
  #173
Sawdalite
AbleWasIEreISawLupul
 
Sawdalite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Girouxsalem
Posts: 5,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Claude Giroux is the only player on the Flyers who was obtained before Holmgren became the GM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Right, and the person you forgot was Giroux. I'm sorry if I'm being dense and missing something here, but I thought it was a bit funny.
D'uh... Can I get anymore dense?


And the draft thing was funny... I just wasn't seeing the point you were making that it was Giroux who Homer did not obtain... again; D'uh (on my part haha)

Sawdalite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:49 PM
  #174
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,506
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
Pronger could live out the rest of his contract on LTIR (which still has negative ramifications btw)
Bryz could win a Vezina
Brayden Schenn could have a career altering injury
Sean Couturier could end up never developing the way people think he will
Jeff Carter could score 45 goals next season.

A lot of things could happen that would change how we look at those moves. But at present, you can't question that if the Carter/Richard trades were successes, the Brzy and Pronger contracts weren't.
Huh? I don't see how Pronger's contract has had a negative impact thus far. He was healthy up until this season and has been LTIR'd and could be for the rest of his contract. What is the negative impact of that? If he isn't LITR'd and it counts against the cap, then ok chalk that up to a negative impact. Unless you are talking about banking cap space or there something that I am missing about LTIR (which is certainly possible) I fail to see the negative impact it has had thus far. Same with Bryz (which I will address below).


Quote:
Are you going to argue that Bryz hasn't had a negative impact in his first season?
Are you going to argue that he has? The team finished six points out of first place. Surely those six points are not all on his shoulders. What is his negative impact? He had a rough start to the season? He sure finished strong and despite his numbers in the post season has played relatively well to this point. Please explain the negative impact he has had.

Quote:
And Pronger being on LTIR meant the Flyers couldn't bank any caproom for the deadline, limiting the moves they could have made. Better get used to that because its probably going to be happening for the next 5 years.
So that's the negative impact you are talking about? I guess Lappy was a bad signing too because he had the same impact. All NMC's then are bad too because if a guy gets injured they have to be LTIR'd. What would have been an appropriate contract for Pronger, or are you suggesting they shouldn't have gotten him at all? So even conceding that this is a negative impact, which it surely is, how much of an impact does this really have? Does this cancel a good move, like say, signing Matt Read? Is it worse than that move is good, is it on the same level, or is the Matt Read signing better than the Pronger contract is bad? These are the questions no one ever answers. They just say, "look it is bad so he sucks!"


Quote:
This is exactly what I am saying. Homer made the decision to adopt a strategy of sacrificing goaltending for depth. After last season, he decided that strategy failed, and gave out 5.6 million per year to a goaltender. So if the strategy failed, why does he not deserve any blame for its failure?
Come on. Many teams change strategy after not winning the Cup. That isn't a sign of a bad GM. That is a sign of a GOOD GM. A bad GM would have stuck with what he was doing, or chosen a different strategy than the one that is clearly working this season. 31/32 don't win the Cup. During the offseason the GMs job is to put together a team that was better than the year before. He blew up the core of the team and it looks like a bright future for the Flyers, regardless of how this season ends. His earlier system didn't work to the point of winning a Cup, but it got the Flyers to the ECF and SCF for the first time since 1996. But yeah, I guess you are right, not banking that Pronger Cap space sucks and losing Randy Jones to re-entry waivers is what defines Homer.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2012, 06:27 AM
  #175
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 115,988
vCash: 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Congratulations, GKJ. You finally get it. Welcome aboard, you have a chance of being a Flyer fan yet, in the sense that some Flyer fans actually like the team and enjoy watching them play - even while accepting the risk that they might lose at some point. You're maturing as fast as Couturier....
Thanks buddy, if you want, I'll put you in touch with my season ticket holder rep. He's known me for 5 years, starting with the year the Flyers missed the playoffs. I'll let him decide if I'm a good enough fan or not. Must really grind your gears that I get to be in the building every night, either that or your horse gets enough air all the way up there. Obviously, you agree with me since you're talking about me and not the point itself. Obviously, after 30 years it must not hurt anymore to be a complete hypocrite.


Now that the Flyers are half way to coughing this thing up, interesting to see that the Holmgren love fest crashed pretty hard. Still a better than average chance they'll win 1 of 2 games, but obviously people are nervous because Holmgren isn't a genius anymore.

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

Stop Feeding the Rumor-Monger

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2014 (sorry it's late)

Last edited by GKJ: 04-21-2012 at 06:37 AM.
GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.