The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
Again, and I'm not trying to be a dick, but why would they settle for just not being in the red, when they could jettison the team and probably make a lot more money? Unless I'm missing part of the equation...
It could be that the owners are hockey fans and like owning a team? Who knows why rich people do the frivolous things they do.
But the discussion of the rise in payroll has me wondering if they're waiting to see if the CBA will be changed so the floor/ceilings are lower allowing them to not have to funnel so much money towards the team to make up the debt.
If the floor/ceiling aren't changed much or lowered they may sell the team soon. If they are, then they will probably try to keep the team competitive to build a healthy fanbase and if that doesn't work sell the team in 5-10 years.
What happens to the teams in the case of bankruptcy? I mean here the creditor gets as much as is left. In case of a hockeyteam this means that all valuable assets are liquidated and they have to be reestablished under a different name. But in the NHL this isn't possible, so I wonder what happens to such teams?
Could we see 3 or more relocations within the next 5 years the answer is yes coyotes & panthers for sure as for the devils & islanders they still have chance to survive because they are in more traditional hockey markets & have solid fan bases .
In my opinion this what is most likely to happen .
Coyotes - Quebec City
Panthers - Hamilton
Islanders - Brooklyn
OR
Coyotes - Hamilton
Panthers - Quebec City
Islanders - Seattle
Ethier way the landscape is going to look a lot different in the next 5 - 10 years .
SSE's Master Lease on the BankAtlantic Center is conditioned on and indivisible from the ownership of the Panthers - it is transferred with any local sale and if the Panthers move, it would revert back to Broward County.
That type of arrangement is not uncommon - San Jose's lease is similar.
SSE's Master Lease on the BankAtlantic Center is conditioned on and indivisible from the ownership of the Panthers - it is transferred with any local sale and if the Panthers move, it would revert back to Broward County.
...oy. Thanks for digging that up. I spent 20 minutes trying to find it & gave up!...."Indivisble". SSE's cannot "jettison" the franchise be it locally or for relo without breaching its lease with Broward, which I believe runs through 2029. I suppose its possible some sort of backroom deal could be orchestrated in an attempt to end run that clause somehow, politics being what they are in Florida n' all, but still. Locked in.
...oy. Thanks for digging that up. I spent 20 minutes trying to find it & gave up!...."Indivisble". SSE's cannot "jettison" the franchise be it locally or for relo without breaching its lease with Broward, which I believe runs through 2029. I suppose its possible some sort of backroom deal could be orchestrated in an attempt to end run that clause somehow, politics being what they are in Florida n' all, but still. Locked in.
Quite frankly, with how much profit they make off the lease. Its not even worth *risking* screwing it up by playing politics.
Fanbase is NOT, nor has it EVER been the problem. Former ownership that went to the cheap LONG before there was issue is. I've spoken to many former Panthers...Cohen was the issue. He's no longer here.
__________________ Gudbranson fanboy and defender for liiiiiife!
Last edited by Laus723: 04-14-2012 at 05:42 PM.
Reason: ...
And, as people have already said, yes the arena was pretty empty last night but when the team has been utter crap for so many years can you really blame the current owners that they didn't sell out? After this season their attendance should be up a considerable margin next year.
To the bolded - you are way off base. The arena was NOT "pretty much empty" at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola
To the bolded - you are way off base. The arena was NOT "pretty much empty" at all. FFS.
Yeah, not close. Had less than 1000 tickets left last I looked close to noon. Most seats were filled in by the second period.
Team missed for 12 years. And the above happened last night. Team's fine.
Could we see 3 or more relocations within the next 5 years the answer is yes coyotes & panthers for sure as for the devils & islanders they still have chance to survive because they are in more traditional hockey markets & have solid fan bases .
In my opinion this what is most likely to happen .
Coyotes - Quebec City
Panthers - Hamilton
Islanders - Brooklyn
OR
Coyotes - Hamilton
Panthers - Quebec City
Islanders - Seattle
Ethier way the landscape is going to look a lot different in the next 5 - 10 years .
Nope. Not a chance.
Team is tied into the arena for the next 15 to 17 years. They signed a 30 year lease that the team will remain. Say someone DOES want to actually move the team, it will cost a ton to buyout the lease, move the team, build an arena, etc. Not going anywhere.
Balsillie never tried to buy the team when they were for sale, should be telling.
...oy. Thanks for digging that up. I spent 20 minutes trying to find it & gave up!...."Indivisble". SSE's cannot "jettison" the franchise be it locally or for relo without breaching its lease with Broward, which I believe runs through 2029. I suppose its possible some sort of backroom deal could be orchestrated in an attempt to end run that clause somehow, politics being what they are in Florida n' all, but still. Locked in.
I'm pretty skeptical the Panthers will still be there in 2029. Call it a hunch.
Team is tied into the arena for the next 15 to 17 years. They signed a 30 year lease that the team will remain. Say someone DOES want to actually move the team, it will cost a ton to buyout the lease, move the team, build an arena, etc. Not going anywhere.
Balsillie never tried to buy the team when they were for sale, should be telling.
Not saying anything is going on with the Panthers, but as we have seen in Phoenix, there is a very easy way to get out of any lease no matter how long it is for. Throw the keys on Bettman's desk and claim bankruptcy.
Phoenix has been looking for an owner for three years, Atlanta had to pack up and move (for the 2nd time) and Florida is bleeding money and can't sell out playoff games.
Yeah, the sun belt experiment has been a huge success.
But, but, but overall revenue for the league is better than it has ever been. Gary Bettman has taken the NHL from the abyss and turned it into a money giant.
Bettman=
Although in the end with my limited economics knowledge I can understand how this works in the basic terms. The league overall makes money despite these struggling teams and these teams do generate revenue in other ways, like Florida. Meanwhile relocation is almost always a risk because a new product may have short term success but when you don't have long-term projections available it makes things complicated.
The Panthers have been around since 1993. That's nearly 20 years of hockey history, bad or good it means there's a reliable figure to go on, and far be it from me to question the viability of a market that will continue to see more young fans who have grown up with the team.
Relocating to a market like Hamilton, may it seem good or not does not offer a 20 year projections output.
That said I doubt either team is in relocation trouble within the next 3 years. After that I'm not sure on the details.
Not saying anything is going on with the Panthers, but as we have seen in Phoenix, there is a very easy way to get out of any lease no matter how long it is for. Throw the keys on Bettman's desk and claim bankruptcy.
If only it were that easy for the Islanders at their current building and the Pens when they used to play at the Igloo. The reason why the Coyotes lease was broken was because of a judge who failed to see that both of these teams leases were upheld in court and gave the wrong ruling in the process. Thr right ruling was to uphold the origional lease and leave both Moyes and the NHL scrambling to fix the mess no matter how much money is lost in the process.
As far are the Panthers are concerned, I only see this success of this season as something to build off of as a good start and can only go up as long as the product of the ice is good.
Fanbase is NOT, nor has it EVER been the problem. Former ownership that went to the cheap LONG before there was issue is. I've spoken to many former Panthers...Cohen was the issue. He's no longer here.
If the fan base isn't the problem, how come they can't sell out a playoff game? How come their TV ratings are downright pathetic?
All these sun belt hockey fans make excuse after excuse about why they aren't drawing. Then teams like Florida and Phoenix start winning and the fans still don't care.
I'll agree with what someone said earlier, I'm skeptical that the team will be there in 2029.
Last edited by Fugu: 04-14-2012 at 05:28 PM.
Reason: qep
If only it were that easy for the Islanders at their current building and the Pens when they used to play at the Igloo. The reason why the Coyotes lease was broken was because of a judge who failed to see that both of these teams leases were upheld in court and gave the wrong ruling in the process. Thr right ruling was to uphold the origional lease and leave both Moyes and the NHL scrambling to fix the mess no matter how much money is lost in the process.
That maybe the right ruling from the point of view of a fan, but that's not how bankruptcy court works. The judge went far enough denying Ballisille's plan even though it would have result in higher recovery for the creditors. Anything else wouldn't have stood up under appeal
If the fan base isn't the problem, how come they can't sell out a playoff game? How come their TV ratings are downright pathetic?
All these sun belt hockey fans make excuse after excuse about why they aren't drawing. Then teams like Florida and Phoenix start winning and the fans still don't care.
I'll agree with what someone said earlier, I'm skeptical that the team will be there in 2029.
MOD
do some research into attendance and tv rating for the blackhawks pre 2007. Starting with early 2000's. you might be in for a surprise.
Last edited by Fugu: 04-14-2012 at 05:30 PM.
Reason: personal attacks are not allowed, address the post
But that is not the same as SSM (the group that owns the Panthers) declaring bankruptcy. That is when the Panthers are in actual trouble.
I feel like an idiot pointing this out, since this is painfully obvious. Oh well.
No, they can't.
Once again, the lease is conditional on the Panthers being a tenant. Any move that would jeopardize that (Such as oh... having the Panthers declare bankruptcy in an effort to 'get them off the books'), would ultimately make them lose the lease.
As far as the Panthers are concerned, I only see this success of this season as something to build off of as a good start and can only go up as long as the product on the ice is good.
Absolutely. Tallons' handiwork'll take a few seasons to really bear fruit but Christ, after the last decade, nowhere to go but up. Combined with Yormarks hyper-aggressive marketing & sponsorship activities, the building itself one of the busiest in North America for concerts, events, consumer & trade shows etc, they'll be just fine n' dandy... indeed, if Phoenix is given the chance it deserves, Id be replicating elements of SSE's business model. Piece of cake.
This thread is pretty funny bashing fans for not wanting to support a team after they were a crap product for 12 years. The Panthers management put a mediocre at best team on the ice for the last 10 years. Boston, Pittsburg, and Chicago all had crappy attendance after how long? In the last couple of games this year with the Panthers trying to clinch the divison or just the playoffs the building was pretty much full. Last night it was as full as I have ever seen it with a mostly home crowd. At the same time the Marlins played their second game in their new stadium and the Heat were playing as well. Why the hell the NHL would schedule a playoff game when there are 2 other pro sports playing that night I have no idea. Do you think some people that had already bought tickets to the Heat or Marlins game couldn't make the game? If the Panthers put together a few good seasons in a row and the attendance doesn't go up I'd worry. But right now with the sweetheart deal SSE has and the building being ranked as one of the best in the country for concerts they aren't going anywhere. They also just took out a 7.7 million dollar loan to put in a new bar/ luxury section in the arena.
Absolutely. Tallons' handiwork'll take a few seasons to really bear fruit but Christ, after the last decade, nowhere to go but up. Combined with Yormarks hyper-aggressive marketing & sponsorship activities, the building itself one of the busiest in North America for concerts, events, consumer & trade shows etc, they'll be just fine n' dandy... indeed, if Phoenix is given the chance it deserves, Id be replicating elements of SSE's business model. Piece of cake.
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MOD
Panthers were 100 seats short of a sellout last night. They are in a beautiful arena for the next 15 yrs.
MOD
Last edited by Fugu: 04-14-2012 at 05:41 PM.
Reason: knock it off
I dont understand how anyone can possibly blame Florida's attendance after 12 years of misery on the fans!
The Coyotes attendance is a thousand times worst, with the worst in the league after 3 years with a very, very competitive team. And on top of that, they have never made a profit!
And by the way: Go Panthers! The fans that are still around really deserve a good playoff run after what they've been trough. And with Theo in goal, I really see them rebounding in this series and ultimately winning it at home in 7 games.
Last edited by Fugu: 04-14-2012 at 05:42 PM.
Reason: qdp
Not a chance. 
