The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
and I was going to suggest that if Phoenix does get its owner, he should hire your Yormarks' twin brother who works in a similar capacity for the Nets up in Jersey. Worn out his welcome up there plastering the joint with banners & the like. Hell, you wouldnt even have to study SSE's business plan, the kid could just hit the ground running. The "Lexus Ice Surface at jobbing.com Arena" surrounded by "Westjet Parking Lots". That right there is worth about $10M a year. Who needs subsidies when youve got a Yormark Card?...
Last edited by Fugu: 04-14-2012 at 05:43 PM.
Reason: qdp
I'm not going to sit and defend the Hawks' attendance from a few years ago, and I'm not going to blame Florida fans for not showing up when the product sucked.
But the bottom line is, Florida couldn't sell out a playoff game (where I'm sure tickets were dirt cheap). Hawks have had no problem selling those out.
Last edited by Fugu: 04-14-2012 at 05:44 PM.
Reason: quotes deleted post
I'm not going to sit and defend the Hawks' attendance from a few years ago, and I'm not going to blame Florida fans for not showing up when the product sucked.
But the bottom line is, Florida couldn't sell out a playoff game (where I'm sure tickets were dirt cheap). Hawks have had no problem selling those out.
What were the remaining tickets left in that bottom line problem? Any clue?
__________________ Gudbranson fanboy and defender for liiiiiife!
What were the remaining tickets left in that bottom line problem? Any clue?
According to this article, the announced attendance was 19,119. So, about a 1,000 seats weren't sold. And it's certainly possible the attendance wasn't that high either.
Yes, it's only 1,000 seats. It's also still not a sellout, which shouldn't happen in a city if it thinks it deserves the NHL.
According to this article, the announced attendance was 19,119. So, about a 1,000 seats weren't sold. And it's certainly possible the attendance wasn't that high either.
Yes, it's only 1,000 seats. It's also still not a sellout, which shouldn't happen in a city if it thinks it deserves the NHL.
Missed for 12 years, most of the fanbase feels it was VERY poorly treated by the former owner. As does many players. Less than 1000 seats after 12 years of terrible ownership and decision making? Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Not sure where anyone said we "deserve" the NHL. Don't think most of the people on the planet actually know what that word means. We have it, and the fanbase showed up last night...in round 1. Doesn't much matter if people have an issue with that, you're not in our shoes.
While I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the Panthers' hardcore fanbase is a LOT smaller than that of some other teams (Leafs, Habs, Flames etc), it's also clear that the ownership of the team has found a model which makes money despite this.
I don't see any NHL team in Metro Miami ever having the fanbase that most Canadian teams have. For two reasons; the shape of the metro area - it's basically a straight line along the coast) & cultural considerations - beside the fact that it's the American South & Not Canada, Miami has a lot of Latin Americans, who are a tougher sell. Having said that, the ownership has found a model that works - they're making money and bringing top calibre hockey to fan like panthersflames1, PBPantherfan & adam graves.
As much as I'd love to see a team in Hamilton (which is well behind QC in line), if the Panthers' model is working & bringing the NHL to South Florida, I can't see bankruptcy unless someone's doing something dodgy. And I'm not talking "let's move the team to Hamilton & circumvent the NHL", I'm talking some serious cooking of the books to hide real losses.
According to this article, the announced attendance was 19,119. So, about a 1,000 seats weren't sold. And it's certainly possible the attendance wasn't that high either.
Yes, it's only 1,000 seats. It's also still not a sellout, which shouldn't happen in a city if it thinks it deserves the NHL.
We know that NJD isn't in the clutches of its creditors due to the NHL rule that banks agreed to that it has to happen after the season ends.
There hasn't been as much news about Florida, but this reminds me a bit about Atlanta. All the focus was on Phoenix, so are there more teams who are getting advances on NHL revenue sharing dollars? There was an article a couple months ago about the teams who received advances.
That said, when Detroit's economy went into a downward spiral (okay, the rest of the country suffered too), they weren't selling out either, iirc. I personally don't think 1000 seats alone is an issue. The more important indicator will be the revenue they garner on a per game basis. Most NHL teams that do 'well' overall get about $1 MM per game (tickets) during the regular season; and 25-200% above that or more as the rounds continue for playoff games.
I'm sure given time and sustained success, the Panthers could be something. But the issue for me has always been how much time? How much success? I've never been agnostic about southern expansion as a strategy, but I do question chasing big TV numbers at the expense of actually growing the game. I think South Florida was a poor market choice and this is reflected in how hard it's been for the team to capture fans in spite of a strong showing on the ice all season... there's too much else to do, too little interest even among hockey fans in the area. Yes, they were only 100 tickets short of a sellout last night but how many of those tickets were comped? How many were given away at prices that couldn't get you into a St. John's Ice Caps game?
I'm glad that the Panthers are locked in for ~30 years as it will allow them to answer those questions about how long and how successful a team needs to be to build a fanbase totally from scratch with that level of competition. But remember, by that time the BankAtlantic Center will be well over 50 years old.... so maybe things aren't as set in stone as we think at the moment.
We know that NJD isn't in the clutches of its creditors due to the NHL rule that banks agreed to that it has to happen after the season ends.
There hasn't been as much news about Florida, but this reminds me a bit about Atlanta. All the focus was on Phoenix, so are there more teams who are getting advances on NHL revenue sharing dollars? There was an article a couple months ago about the teams who received advances.
That said, when Detroit's economy went into a downward spiral (okay, the rest of the country suffered too), they weren't selling out either, iirc. I personally don't think 1000 seats alone is an issue. The more important indicator will be the revenue they garner on a per game basis. Most NHL teams that do 'well' overall get about $1 MM per game (tickets) during the regular season; and 25-200% above that or more as the rounds continue for playoff games.
Bingo!!!! $40 tickets do not pay the bills in todays NHL.
That said, when Detroit's economy went into a downward spiral (okay, the rest of the country suffered too), they weren't selling out either, iirc.
I'm willing to bet you could have sat iceside in Florida for the cost of the average Wings playoff ticket, though. Sheer numbers never tell the whole story.
According to this article, the announced attendance was 19,119. So, about a 1,000 seats weren't sold. And it's certainly possible the attendance wasn't that high either.
Yes, it's only 1,000 seats. It's also still not a sellout, which shouldn't happen in a city if it thinks it deserves the NHL.
The capacity is 19200 so the arena was short...81 people.
Despite 10 yrs of missing playoffs the panther attendance continued to rank about 20th I'm the league.
There's no Factual basis for your argument.
I'm more concerned about the health of the Blackhawks if they tailspin again since they have not evidenced good fan turnout when they go through down years.
I thought Florida's new owners were in for the long haul so it is a bit surprising they may want out but not that this aspect of the business is near bankruptcy.
One owner (major) left anymore, Cliff Viner, who just finalized his divorce, missus didn't want part of team.
What happens to the teams in the case of bankruptcy? I mean here the creditor gets as much as is left. In case of a hockeyteam this means that all valuable assets are liquidated and they have to be reestablished under a different name. But in the NHL this isn't possible, so I wonder what happens to such teams?
Isn't team being sold to some interested buyer, like what happened with Buffalo and Ottawa and then that money goes to creditors.
One question, season ticket holders who have already paid following season's seats, do they get their money back? or new owner will honor bought tickets? How are season ticket holders ranked as creditors?
The capacity is 19200 so the arena was short...81 people.
Despite 10 yrs of missing playoffs the panther attendance continued to rank about 20th I'm the league.
There's no Factual basis for your argument.
I'm more concerned about the health of the Blackhawks if they tailspin again since they have not evidenced good fan turnout when they go through down years.
not saying i agree with what he was saying about the panthers, and i know this is off topic, but there is no reason to be concerned about the blackhawks, especially over the panthers. the hawks are one of the most important teams in the league. the panthers are not.
this doesn't mean i think the panthers should move though. almost every team has bad turnout from the fans when the team is terrible, even the hawks, bruins, wings, etc. the blackhawks home games weren't ever on tv too. whenever there was a hawks game at the UC on espn, the game would still be blacked out in chicago. complete ********. bill wirtz was a POS
Isn't team being sold to some interested buyer, like what happened with Buffalo and Ottawa and then that money goes to creditors.
One question, season ticket holders who have already paid following season's seats, do they get their money back? or new owner will honor bought tickets? How are season ticket holders ranked as creditors?
JOL
Interesting question. Its been almost 10 years since I worked in corporate bankruptcy but I would think season ticket holders would be treated as secured creditors since they put a deposit for tickets for the next season so they have an actual asset.
But teams have always been sold as going businesses so I would think they new owners would always have it in their plan which the court signs off on to accommodate the ticket holders.
While I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the Panthers' hardcore fanbase is a LOT smaller than that of some other teams (Leafs, Habs, Flames etc), it's also clear that the ownership of the team has found a model which makes money despite this.
I don't see any NHL team in Metro Miami ever having the fanbase that most Canadian teams have. For two reasons; the shape of the metro area - it's basically a straight line along the coast) & cultural considerations - beside the fact that it's the American South & Not Canada, Miami has a lot of Latin Americans, who are a tougher sell. Having said that, the ownership has found a model that works - they're making money and bringing top calibre hockey to fan like panthersflames1, PBPantherfan & adam graves.
As much as I'd love to see a team in Hamilton (which is well behind QC in line), if the Panthers' model is working & bringing the NHL to South Florida, I can't see bankruptcy unless someone's doing something dodgy. And I'm not talking "let's move the team to Hamilton & circumvent the NHL", I'm talking some serious cooking of the books to hide real losses.
Arena isn't in Miami, and it's not close to the beach, it's on the edge of the Everglades. about 45 minutes from Miami in Sunrise, which is basically West Ft. Lauderdale. Caters to people in Palm Beach County who go to the games, as well as Broward and Dade. Arena has easy access from every major road, also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie
I'm sure given time and sustained success, the Panthers could be something. But the issue for me has always been how much time? How much success? I've never been agnostic about southern expansion as a strategy, but I do question chasing big TV numbers at the expense of actually growing the game. I think South Florida was a poor market choice and this is reflected in how hard it's been for the team to capture fans in spite of a strong showing on the ice all season... there's too much else to do, too little interest even among hockey fans in the area. Yes, they were only 100 tickets short of a sellout last night but how many of those tickets were comped? How many were given away at prices that couldn't get you into a St. John's Ice Caps game?
I'm glad that the Panthers are locked in for ~30 years as it will allow them to answer those questions about how long and how successful a team needs to be to build a fanbase totally from scratch with that level of competition. But remember, by that time the BankAtlantic Center will be well over 50 years old.... so maybe things aren't as set in stone as we think at the moment.
Again, one season doesn't negate 12 years. People still turn a cold shoulder to the Marlins after the 97 dismantling. Further, South Florida is made up of snowbirds and transplants who bring their love of their teams with them. Always been this way. I and my parents had season seats next to people who would be in a Panthers sweater all season except when "their other, true team" is in town. Then, this guy (couple, family) who were cheering for the Panthers a game ago with full gusto is now cheering against them even harder. It's weird.
However, this game has grown leaps and bounds since Florida got two professional teams. I graduated in 93, there was no hockey in schools, very few played, and there was really only one place to play which was in Lighthouse Point. Since 93, ice rinks have sprung up everywhere, hockey is played in schools, colleges, and rec hockey is WAY up. The NFL hotbed has people turning away from that game to play ice hockey. It's a fact.
Don't mistake the team's former majority owner and how pathetically he ran this franchise, treated the fans, and players as proof to how the game is loved here.
not saying i agree with what he was saying about the panthers, and i know this is off topic, but there is no reason to be concerned about the blackhawks, especially over the panthers. the hawks are one of the most important teams in the league. the panthers are not.
this doesn't mean i think the panthers should move though. almost every team has bad turnout from the fans when the team is terrible, even the hawks, bruins, wings, etc. the blackhawks home games weren't ever on tv too. whenever there was a hawks game at the UC on espn, the game would still be blacked out in chicago. complete ********. bill wirtz was a POS
So was Cohen, there are plenty of similarities between the franchises.
Also, Pittsburgh, Boston, and Washington all had serious attendance issues before their teams found the recent success. Florida's failures were sustained for over a decade, they're still here and were 81 tickets shy of a sellout. Prices varied, had a friend who paid for uppers what I paid for lowers. Just depended on where they went and when. Not sure why he paid that, but he did.
Chicago, Jersey, and the teams mentioned are all in the north. Where it snows and there's ice, why Florida gets such hatred spewed toward is baffling to me, especially with so many who attend games when they're here on vacation. We didn't take anyone's team, we started fresh. People here love the game, just hated the former owner.
Please, seriously, educate yourselves a bit before talking on this subject. You're not here to talk about things with locals, get their feelings and thoughts, and most of you don't REALLY know what's going on behind the scenes and with the numbers.
One owner (major) left anymore, Cliff Viner, who just finalized his divorce, missus didn't want part of team.
JOL
I thought there were a lot of minority partners or are they in for $1.00 each?
General Partner/Chairman Of The Board/CEO
Cliff Viner
Partners:
Alan Cohen
Steve Cohen
David Epstein
Dr. Elliott Hahn H. Wayne Huizenga Bernie Kosar
Richard C. Lehman, M.D.
Albert E. Maroone
Michael E. Maroone
James L. Nederlander
Robert Printz
Michael Rashes
Jordan Zimmerman
According to this article, the announced attendance was 19,119. So, about a 1,000 seats weren't sold. And it's certainly possible the attendance wasn't that high either.
Yes, it's only 1,000 seats. It's also still not a sellout, which shouldn't happen in a city if it thinks it deserves the NHL.
I will say that bodies in seats is NOT what really matters here.. For instance, the Devils may not sell out for this opening round (they've sold out every playoff game since moving to the new building).. That said, ticket prices are almost double what they were in previous years for the opening round.. Generating revenue, not ensuring every seat gets sold, is the overall goal.. So would you rather sell out and make $1MM or have 1,500 empty seats and have closer to $2MM in revenue?
So was Cohen, there are plenty of similarities between the franchises.
Also, Pittsburgh, Boston, and Washington all had serious attendance issues before their teams found the recent success. Florida's failures were sustained for over a decade, they're still here and were 81 tickets shy of a sellout. Prices varied, had a friend who paid for uppers what I paid for lowers. Just depended on where they went and when. Not sure why he paid that, but he did.
Chicago, Jersey, and the teams mentioned are all in the north. Where it snows and there's ice, why Florida gets such hatred spewed toward is baffling to me, especially with so many who attend games when they're here on vacation. We didn't take anyone's team, we started fresh. People here love the game, just hated the former owner.
Please, seriously, educate yourselves a bit before talking on this subject. You're not here to talk about things with locals, get their feelings and thoughts, and most of you don't REALLY know what's going on behind the scenes and with the numbers.
Laus723, for me this is not just hockey. It's 200 people at the Marlins game. It's a whole section of seats empty at the heat games and a historic franchise like the Miami Dolphins having blackouts.
Miami is a crap sports market.
I agree about the hockey though. But that does not explain the other three sports.
I will say that bodies in seats is NOT what really matters here.. For instance, the Devils may not sell out for this opening round (they've sold out every playoff game since moving to the new building).. That said, ticket prices are almost double what they were in previous years for the opening round.. Generating revenue, not ensuring every seat gets sold, is the overall goal.. So would you rather sell out and make $1MM or have 1,500 empty seats and have closer to $2MM in revenue?
You are 100% right but don't you think it looks bad on TV to have empty seats?
