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Old
10-14-2012, 06:02 AM
  #151
SoundAndFury
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Now, wouldn't that be fair?
No, it wouldn't.

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10-14-2012, 06:19 AM
  #152
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No, it wouldn't.
But what is fair? Atm no other Russian team would have ever in the future the chance to become Russian champion than those who are right now in KHL.

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10-14-2012, 07:01 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
No, it wouldn't.
Why? There's nothing fairer than that. It's much fairer to be included in an elite league based on one's performance rather than based on the thickness of one's wallet, isn't it? I don't think you're being convincing if you simply deny a statement without providing any explanation.

Also, while I agree that Russian hockey dominates in terms of Europe, the current proportion within the KHL in terms of countries (20-1-1-1-1-1-1), heavily favouring Russian teams, is hardly sustainable in the long term if the KHL is truly to become an international league, rather than "ex-Russian league with a few foreign guest teams thrown into the Russian mix". So, I have read some Czech detractors of the KHL term it the "Soviet league". If the KHL wants to get rid of such monikers, the proportion of Russian vs. non-Russian (and non-ex-USSR) teams within the KHL will need to change. Right now, it's 24-2 using the latter criterion.

It's true there's hardly ever complete fairness in sports, or otherwise the majority of the teams in the NHL would be Canadian, not US. But, it might be beneficial at least to strive to attain as much just parity as possible.

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10-14-2012, 09:06 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
But what is fair? Atm no other Russian team would have ever in the future the chance to become Russian champion than those who are right now in KHL.
If there would be a team capable of challenging for the Russian championship it would be inducted into KHL and it's as simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Why? There's nothing fairer than that. It's much fairer to be included in an elite league based on one's performance rather than based on the thickness of one's wallet, isn't it? I don't think you're being convincing if you simply deny a statement without providing any explanation.

Also, while I agree that Russian hockey dominates in terms of Europe, the current proportion within the KHL in terms of countries (20-1-1-1-1-1-1), heavily favouring Russian teams, is hardly sustainable in the long term if the KHL is truly to become an international league, rather than "ex-Russian league with a few foreign guest teams thrown into the Russian mix". So, I have read some Czech detractors of the KHL term it the "Soviet league". If the KHL wants to get rid of such monikers, the proportion of Russian vs. non-Russian (and non-ex-USSR) teams within the KHL will need to change. Right now, it's 24-2 using the latter criterion.

It's true there's hardly ever complete fairness in sports, or otherwise the majority of the teams in the NHL would be Canadian, not US. But, it might be beneficial at least to strive to attain as much just parity as possible.
First of all, KHL Expansion plan reportedly is to have as many as 64 teams in the league so if there is any team capable of at least surviving in the KHL they will be inducted into KHL without relegating someone. At this stage of league's developement promoting/relegating someone doesn't make any sense.

Secondly, what you are stating is just your understanding of what's fair and fairness in general. We have to face the fact that long term money is the most important thing in sports. It enables team to remain competitive (and at the same time league which consists of the teams).

Team, when being inducted into the league, makes commitment to invest money and remain competitve. How it would be fair to not give them a time to develope a fanbase, infrostructure and so on and relegate them somewhere and promote some team which performed well against much weaker opposition with no chance to develop into really cometetive KHL team?

Like your example with Oilers. It's up and coming team which is still in the rebuilding mode in one of the best markets in the league. One of the few teams in the NHL that are actually profitable even while they are basement dwellers. Now this team has a chance to develop and in let's say 5 years be a legit Stanley Cup contender. If they were relegated their best players would request trades, fanbase would get smaller, hockey in general would lose fans to other sports (well ok, Edmonton is not the place for that to happen but in f.e. Boston it would be a massive blow). How would that be fair?

In fact I really have hard time writing this post because your "fair" proposition is wrong in so many ways and so many things would have to be changed for "fairness" sake which at the end of the day is not fair at all. That's why I chose just to deny your statement without any explanation earlier.


Last edited by SoundAndFury: 10-14-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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Old
10-14-2012, 09:51 AM
  #155
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Soviet league
Soviet league is cool with me. Don't bring back communism but bring back Soviet hockey.

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Old
10-14-2012, 10:08 AM
  #156
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Thanks for explaining your position, SoundAndFury. However, as I think you'll admit, none of your objections prevent professional European football leagues from working properly. Let's say the Oilers were relegated to a lower league for 1 season. Hmm, so what? They would win the lower league in the next season, and would be back in the NHL a year later. I think trying to prevent falling into a lower league would provide additional incentive for teams to work hard even after the chances for advancing to the play-offs have been lost.

In every season, there are suspicions in the NHL that teams that can no longer advance to the play-offs don't really put their maximum effort into the final games of a season... In fact, the more games they lose, the better their draft position. As an LA Kings fan, I particularly remember the season where Steven Stamkos and Drew Doughty were the no. 1 and no. 2 draft picks. LA Kings fans were literally praying for LA Kings to lose as many games as possible, so that Stamkos would end up in LA. (It wouldn't be a certainty, but the draft lottery rarely changes anything regarding the no. 1 draft pick, despite what happened this year.) And then what happened in the Kings' final game of the season, was that they were trailing in the final, 82nd game of the season, and would have likely got Stamkos as reward if they lost. But, one of the Kings' least loved forwards equalized the score, earning the Kings a point... which meant Stamkos went to Tampa Bay and Doughty to LA.

It turned out very well with the superstar Doughty in LA in the end... but we'd be spared such absurd situations and speculations every season if each and every game mattered, even after the play-offs are out of sight for some teams. For example, in the German football Bundesliga, towards the end of the season, the fight for the Championship is often no more (sometimes even less!) suspenseful than which teams manage to escape the relegation and stay in the top class for another season.

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10-14-2012, 12:25 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Thanks for explaining your position, SoundAndFury. However, as I think you'll admit, none of your objections prevent professional European football leagues from working properly. Let's say the Oilers were relegated to a lower league for 1 season. Hmm, so what? They would win the lower league in the next season, and would be back in the NHL a year later. I think trying to prevent falling into a lower league would provide additional incentive for teams to work hard even after the chances for advancing to the play-offs have been lost.
You may say football leagues are working properly. I would say they are dominated by the same 2 or 3 teams for decades unless some suggar daddy rides in on his camel and buys everyone on the market. There's no parity whatsoever.

If you are ok with that bussiness model and you think it's fair that's fine. I prefer the one which is in the NHL. It isn't flawless but imo much better and least brings real parity.

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10-14-2012, 02:26 PM
  #158
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I don't see how the two things are connected, Sound&Fury. The recent parity in the NHL (7 Stanley Cup winners in 7 seasons) is mostly the result of the newly introduced salary cap, not of the playing system with no relegation. Remember before the salary cap, New York Rangers, Detroit Red Wings etc. were able to outspend everyone else every year. In fact, that's the situation we have in the KHL right now -- with SKA Petersburg able to spend 10 times as much on their roster as other teams.

If the Spanish football league introduced a salary cap, then it wouldn't be FC Barcelona and Real Madrid finishing 1-2 or 2-1 every year... So it's not that kind of parity I primarily had in mind, in terms of winning Championships; more like parity in terms of access to playing in Europe's elite league.

It's nice Mr. Medvedev envisions 64 teams in the KHL one day, but I wonder how that can work out in practice. The schedule is packed as it is. It's really bad that the regular season ends in early February; that's in the middle of winter, for chrissake, and it makes no sense that for 10 KHL teams this year, the hockey season will be over in early February. You know, in the NHL they say, after a team fails to advance to the play-offs: "You can go play some golf now." But there's no golf in early February!

I'm afraid that sooner or later, the World Championships will start seriously interfering with the KHL, just as they have interfered with the NHL for decades. They should definitely be cancelled in Olympic years. It would be much better to make a similar international break in the KHL season, say in March, to play the World Championships, and then finish playing the KHL regular season and play-offs.

Also, if there are 64 KHL teams, they better be teams from attractive countries with a hockey tradition. I'd prefer a smaller KHL with top teams from traditional hockey countries, instead of a mega-sized KHL with teams from hockey-exotic locations. (See the NHL's struggles with sustaining hockey in places like Arizona and Florida.)

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Old
10-14-2012, 03:09 PM
  #159
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Fatherson:

I believe the relegation system is nonsense and think that the fact that the KHL is using somewhat of a NA NHL business model is the best thing ever.

I like your idealist view of sport competitiveness.
you bring up European soccer leagues, but the truth is that I think that most hockey fans dont want anything close to a Champions League, European-type set up.
The main reason for me personally is that it is not going to change hockey significantly. The European Trophy, labelled as Europe's premium or top preseason tournament(or whatever) is lame. SC Bern has an attendance of less than 3000
You can juggle around a timetable and play a few other clubs for an arbitrary trophy like the champions league but it wouldn't change rosters, mentality, or hockey in general. It would be just a tournament you participate in, or an arbitrary champions league that changes from time to time where you can not really get rivals.

The KHL, like the NHL is a system. Teams are locked in, the level is raised, there are farm teams, MHL, draft, everything. You know what your in for, there are strong franchises, and with the salary cap there is some parity.

A few bottom barrel teams that strive for first pick can be overlooked, as the lowest 5 have the lottery. Your example with LA is inconsequential. Remember New Jersey 2 years ago when they were almost last, near the Islanders? Instead of opting for the high pick they almost got to the play-offs.
Even then, who cares if teams strive for that pick? The ratings for the draft and the coverage that even the draft lottery game has more ratings on primetime TSN than top european hockey events.

These leagues are not just a pure dry sporting organization that hosts hockey teams but an ecosystem which is better off closed.

Look at Sweden, their relegation of top teams from SEL has made club hockey in that country a mess. What about Malmo, that built a huge arena and is shafted in the Allsvenskan for years now.

As a business you find the right markets, know which places can support the top teams, and keep them there. There are natural cycles of competitiveness. Washington could have been relegated before the 2004 lockout. Mess up the franchise, change the league, juggle the fans, for what?
Sure the Hershey Bears or the Toronto Marlies might have been able to be more competitive than the Oilers last year, but so what? From a pure sporting POV, maybe your right, but considering the aforementioned, it would be dumb to relegate the,

A league would be less interesting if there are clubs coming and going, the sense of impermanence is not necessarily a good way of keeping competitiveness up as you believe. There would be no rebuild, just crappy signings just to stay alive and get better results. To win out of stress. And in the end, someone has to lose.

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Old
10-14-2012, 04:50 PM
  #160
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Just to clarify, I'm definitely not arguing for a Champions League-style of competition. I believe that's what Fasel wanted to set up, but in my opinion it's worthless. Here's the important distinction: teams in the football Champions League play both the Champions League and their home country's league. That's not desirable in hockey. The top international hockey league must be the only league for each participating hockey club (small-scale international tourneys are OK, of course); then they can focus on the league properly; the World Championships and Olympics are distracting enough.

Ultimately, I am hoping for a global, world-wide hockey league with a North American and a European division, or something along those lines. My KHL team Slovan Bratislava now must cross 9 time zones in order to play Amur Khabarovsk in the KHL. In contrast, most of the NHL's Eastern Conference teams are only 6 time zones away from us, and all of the NHL's Western Conference teams are no further from us than Amur -- 9 time zones, that is.

I do believe, however, that teams should get a chance to advance to a top international league based on their performance. Yeah, it's idealistic and perhaps unworkable, but it's hard to deny such a system would be fair. I mean, if you're a fast runner or a great boxer or chessplayer, all you need to do is keep beating enough of your opponents until you get the chance to compete with the world's very best. This doesn't apply to hockey clubs, though, because of the closed-system nature of the current top leagues NHL & KHL.


Last edited by Faterson: 10-15-2012 at 05:32 AM.
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Old
10-14-2012, 04:55 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Also, if there are 64 KHL teams, they better be teams from attractive countries with a hockey tradition. I'd prefer a smaller KHL with top teams from traditional hockey countries, instead of a mega-sized KHL with teams from hockey-exotic locations. (See the NHL's struggles with sustaining hockey in places like Arizona and Florida.)

Medvescak Zagreb is in Top 20 clubs with most attendance in europe!

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10-14-2012, 05:09 PM
  #162
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I never mentioned any names, Mannheim. But, I think I heard (or misheard?) talk of teams from Dubai (or some such location?) and South Korea possibly joining the KHL... Now that would be rather weird, wouldn't it? To be free from prejudice, a few such teams might still be OK... but if Mr. Medvedev wishes to attain the alleged target number of 64 clubs by adding predominantly such exotic hockey locations... then we might get into trouble.

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10-14-2012, 05:15 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
I never mentioned any names, Mannheim. But, I think I heard (or misheard?) talk of teams from Dubai (or some such location?) and South Korea possibly joining the KHL... Now that would be rather weird, wouldn't it? To be free from prejudice, a few such teams might still be OK... but if Mr. Medvedev wishes to attain the alleged target number of 64 clubs by adding predominantly such exotic hockey locations... then we might get into trouble.
Oh, yes, that would be weird, especially Dubai. I thought in first place that you think only about european teams

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10-14-2012, 09:21 PM
  #164
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I don't think relegation is the right way to go because the teams that are close to the relegation will do whatever they can including stuff like paying the refs and trying to buy points from the other teams just to avoid relegation.

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10-15-2012, 01:31 AM
  #165
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Some of you guys are really mixing up something. Relegation is not the reason why some of the football leagues in Europe are so one-sided. The problem is that there is nothing like a salary cap in these leagues and teams like Manchester United or Liverpool FC have more than 1 bio (!!!!) Euro debts... thats pretty disgusting.

And the example of Sweden: if teams like Malmö are not able to go to Elitserien because they are not good enough to qualify with their team, that's their problem. But they have the chance every year...

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10-15-2012, 07:40 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Some of you guys are really mixing up something. Relegation is not the reason why some of the football leagues in Europe are so one-sided. The problem is that there is nothing like a salary cap in these leagues and teams like Manchester United or Liverpool FC have more than 1 bio (!!!!) Euro debts... thats pretty disgusting.

And the example of Sweden: if teams like Malmö are not able to go to Elitserien because they are not good enough to qualify with their team, that's their problem. But they have the chance every year...
hey, the are no teams in the VHL ready and qualified to join KHL. Once they are they can just apply (at this point). Relegation creates room for "strange" games in the end of the season, I don't want that.

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10-16-2012, 03:29 AM
  #167
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A promotion and relegation system in an ideal world helps the development of the sport. With greater opportunities for a variety of clubs, incentives, youth development etc go up whilst fans from so called smaller areas are more likely to be dedicated to the sport, given their team has a chance to promote.

Atleast, this is the case in the UK with the Premier league. I'd hate to see a closed elite league. The reason the league is "dominated" by certain teams is because of money and the way the financial system works (I.e, total dominating of spending money with no regard for being fiscally responsible and successful).

Whether such a system would work in Russia i do not know. I am unaware of the support of hockey in many mid sized towns and the attendance figures. Football is king over here, and in many mid sized towns who have clubs outside the elite division, they are still followed religiously. Can the same be said with Russia?

It does seem odd to think given the size of Russia, and how many well sized urban areas there are that don't have KHL teams, that going forward, none of these areas are likely to develop into hockey hotbeds.

But then, i think Russia should be concentrating on it's domestic issues and trying to make a stronger domestic league, rather than trying to create a semi-international league. A European wide league damages European hockey more than it helps. The main issue is the NHL stealing talent for almost nothing ; not because we the NHL itself exists (and that we need to create a rival to it).

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10-16-2012, 11:10 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
hey, the are no teams in the VHL ready and qualified to join KHL. Once they are they can just apply (at this point). Relegation creates room for "strange" games in the end of the season, I don't want that.
I agree no good reason for relegation in the KHL. Maybe for a smaller league but not KHL. KHL only wants teams with propper budgets, infrastructure etc.. Say Minsk continued their poor streak and was relegated somehow.. see where this is going?

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10-17-2012, 05:08 AM
  #169
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Maybe we should do an overview of all the informations we got for the moment:

Country • Team • Arena (Capacity) • Probability • Comment
ITA • Hockey Milano Rossoblu • 4000 • Very High • Plans to join in 2013
CRO • KHL Medveščak • 15000 • Very High • Plans to join in 2013
UKR • HC Berkut • 1500 • -
UKR • Sokol Kyiv • 7200 • -
SVK • HK Poprad • 4500 • -
RUS • HC Vladivostok • - • -
RUS • HC Sochi • - • -

Suggestions (By Forum-Members)
SLO • HK Jesenice or Olimpija Ljubljana • Cap. 5900 / 5000
FRA • Dragons de Rouen • Cap. 2750
HUN • Alba Volán • Cap. 3600
ROM • HSC Csíkszereda • Cap. 4000
LIT • SC Energija • Cap. 4000
POL • KS Cracovia or GKS Tychy • Cap. 2500 / 2000

when somebody got more informations - add them to that list...


Last edited by russianhockey: 10-17-2012 at 09:18 AM.
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10-17-2012, 06:52 AM
  #170
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Recommendations
SLO • HK Jesenice or Olimpija Ljubljana (Cap. 5900 / 5000)
Whose recommendations?

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10-17-2012, 06:54 AM
  #171
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by the forum members (in this case, my)

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10-17-2012, 08:53 AM
  #172
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Sorry, this recommendations are laughable.

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10-17-2012, 09:09 AM
  #173
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how else you wanna reach the goal of 64 teams?
what are your suggestions?

i dont think that a regular team from switzerland/austria/germany/sweden or finland will join the league.


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10-17-2012, 09:19 AM
  #174
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I don't. This goal is BS. There will be max of 32 teams and that's it. There are a lot of ppl who decide which team joins besides Medvedev. Which is good. And in the light of all expansion teams I'd say they're very close to my understanding of expansion as well. That is big cities, preferably capitals, with good infrastructure and already existing hockey market. The only exception is Donbass, but when you see the project of their arena and talk to their owner (vice prime minister of Ukraine, the guy loves hockey enough to personally talk to the fans on the forums, and send them the said project of the arena) you'd understand that Donetsk has pretty bright future.

Medvescak? Yes. Milan? May be. The teams from Hungary and Romania with small arenas without the chance to upgrade them in the near future? I don't think so.

As for Germany, I think we may see a team from Del in KHL in a couple of years. Berlin or Cologne. May be both. Riga, Bratislava and Prague just worked up KHL's appetite.


Last edited by ult: 10-17-2012 at 09:26 AM.
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10-17-2012, 09:28 AM
  #175
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when the new goal is 32, than u r right, the suggestions was laughable. im not really up2date in this issue, so excuse me!!!
i thought we need 36 new teams in the next 2-3 years.

i thought this is newsworthy
http://www.iihf.com/channels1112/hoc...ecap/7042.html

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