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Ryan Ellis takes over as the number one prospect of the Nashville Predators

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Old
04-20-2012, 04:28 PM
  #26
Scdo72
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Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
I can't wait to see how Josi evolves in the next couple of years. I remember when Suter first came up I was a big time Suter hater and I thought he wasn't going to stick with us because he had a lot of young mistakes and wasn't impressing me all that much. He was alright, and the potential was there, I just wasn't buying into it until he started proving me wrong.

Not saying Josi will evolve into a Ryan Suter one day, but he certainly impresses me more right off the bat than Suter did at this point.

Also, it's funny I remember last preseason (like Sep. 2010), my friend in the Panthers organization was at one of those little rookie games or whatever teams play in when training camp starts, before the real pre-season games. I hadn't talked to her in several months and all of a sudden I get a text that says "Who the **** is Roman Josi?? Beast!!"
The problem is ... Josi has not a long history in US-Hockey. 3 years ago .... Nobody kowed him. Since Josi is in NHL i read US-Magazines/Newspapers. For a long time there were only articles about Blum and Ellis in the papers. As an unknown european player .. You have to do a lot more to be accepted than other prospects who spent the half of their life in US junior-leagues.

I remember a comment in Facebook after Josi made the one or other rookie mistake. Somone has writen:"and who is this Josi-clown?"

I followed a few years of his carreer and I m sure .... The Predators (and their fans) will have a lot of pleasure with Josi

GO Preds and GO Roman

Greetings fro Switzerland

scdo72

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04-20-2012, 09:05 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Evgeny Oliker View Post
What do you qualify as better?

Bourque is in the NHL, other two are not. So not the most fair comparison right now.

In terms of upside, Budish, if he stays healthy, can become an excellent second line power forward who can at times fill in on the 1st line.

Bourque does not have Budish"s size or power forward game(although he is physical). Considering how rare and important power forwards are, I'll take Budish any day of the week.

Beck is a wild card. If he improves his skating and individual play-making he can become a very solid scoring forward.

Again, half an NHL season and 4 playoff games do not make a player (see Craig Smith). The Rangers had Prucha score 30 in his rookie season... He is in the Khl now. I'm sure Bourque is an NHL player... I just don't see him scoring at this playoff pace long term.
well lets see bourque is in the NHL AND playing a top 6 role in the playoffs as a ROOKIE. beck and budish are well......not. I see that as a very fair comparison when debating which prospect is better. obiously bourque has developed faster/better than beck and budish so far..... thats like saying blum is better than josi bcuz blum is in the AHL and can potentially be better, while Josi is in the NHL playing as a number 3/4 on the second pairing.

logic is flawed

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04-21-2012, 07:36 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by CantBeatMyPekka View Post
well lets see bourque is in the NHL AND playing a top 6 role in the playoffs as a ROOKIE. beck and budish are well......not. I see that as a very fair comparison when debating which prospect is better. obiously bourque has developed faster/better than beck and budish so far..... thats like saying blum is better than josi bcuz blum is in the AHL and can potentially be better, while Josi is in the NHL playing as a number 3/4 on the second pairing.

logic is flawed
The other posters logic isn't flawed. Your logic is only looking at right now. When debating prospects it's long term potential and where they'll be down the road in their career. While I love Bourque and his game right now, no one knows who will be better between the three of them. The other thing to think about is power forwards, Budish, take longer to develop and find their games. That has always been the case. Of the three, I think Beck will end up being the best of the three. Bourque is a solid two way player for sure but Beck has natural goal scorer ability. What ends up happening is anyone's guess but I agree with other poster's view point on how to evaluate a prospect.

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04-21-2012, 02:12 PM
  #29
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logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantBeatMyPekka View Post
well lets see bourque is in the NHL AND playing a top 6 role in the playoffs as a ROOKIE. beck and budish are well......not. I see that as a very fair comparison when debating which prospect is better. obiously bourque has developed faster/better than beck and budish so far..... thats like saying blum is better than josi bcuz blum is in the AHL and can potentially be better, while Josi is in the NHL playing as a number 3/4 on the second pairing.

logic is flawed

Hmmm, so by your logic Yakupov, since he is not in the NHL, is clearly NOT as good as Bourque

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04-21-2012, 06:20 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Evgeny Oliker View Post
Hmmm, so by your logic Yakupov, since he is not in the NHL, is clearly NOT as good as Bourque


umm no. bourque and beck were drafted the same year so comparing bourque and yakupov is well, not what i did........ Budish i think could be good but he has been having knee troubles early. not good. Bourque has made it into the NHL before Beck in the same amount of years. Im not knocking Beck or Budish just saying Bourque is up in the NHL before Beck and budish for a reason, hes more of a complete player right now.....

So comparing Yakupov to Bourque is putting words in my mouth.

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04-21-2012, 06:23 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
The other posters logic isn't flawed. Your logic is only looking at right now. When debating prospects it's long term potential and where they'll be down the road in their career. While I love Bourque and his game right now, no one knows who will be better between the three of them. The other thing to think about is power forwards, Budish, take longer to develop and find their games. That has always been the case. Of the three, I think Beck will end up being the best of the three. Bourque is a solid two way player for sure but Beck has natural goal scorer ability. What ends up happening is anyone's guess but I agree with other poster's view point on how to evaluate a prospect.
your right to an extent.... but being better right now is better than possibly meeting said potential. Especially when the two players we are comparing were drafted the same year.

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04-22-2012, 07:16 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CantBeatMyPekka View Post
your right to an extent.... but being better right now is better than possibly meeting said potential. Especially when the two players we are comparing were drafted the same year.
So if Beck came into the league next year and became a 30 goal scorer for the next 10 years or so while Bourque played the same game he has this year and had no growth to his game would mean what? If Beck's ceiling is higher and meets his potential, he is the better prospect. The terms prospect and players mean two different things. A prospect is based generally on projections whereas players are based on their stats and careers.

Just because players are drafted in the same year has no bearing on how you rate players. Landeskog was drafted this past year whereas Bourque was drafted a few years ago. Who would you rather have on your team? Don't get me wrong, I have become a huge Bourque fan but I think your point of view is a bit skewed.

And reading your retort, of course it's better to be better now than possibly meeting potential but if the player reaches his potential, then I'll go with that guy over the long haul any day of the week. The thing is, GM's have to look at all of this, what's good for the team now and what's good for the team long term and the only thing they have to go on is scouting reports, visual reports and seeing how these guys develop.

While I know Budish has had injury concerns power forwards do take longer to develop. If he can ever put it together he could be a real good one.

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04-22-2012, 01:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
So if Beck came into the league next year and became a 30 goal scorer for the next 10 years or so while Bourque played the same game he has this year and had no growth to his game would mean what? If Beck's ceiling is higher and meets his potential, he is the better prospect. The terms prospect and players mean two different things. A prospect is based generally on projections whereas players are based on their stats and careers.

Just because players are drafted in the same year has no bearing on how you rate players. Landeskog was drafted this past year whereas Bourque was drafted a few years ago. Who would you rather have on your team? Don't get me wrong, I have become a huge Bourque fan but I think your point of view is a bit skewed.

And reading your retort, of course it's better to be better now than possibly meeting potential but if the player reaches his potential, then I'll go with that guy over the long haul any day of the week. The thing is, GM's have to look at all of this, what's good for the team now and what's good for the team long term and the only thing they have to go on is scouting reports, visual reports and seeing how these guys develop.

While I know Budish has had injury concerns power forwards do take longer to develop. If he can ever put it together he could be a real good one.

Beck was never projected to be anything near lanksendog. Thats just like the Yakupov comparison, and i NEVER made that. We are comparing Beck, Budish, and Bourque.

With that said, sure Beck COULD come in and score 30 goals, but Im going to bet cash money he wont, seriously. Budish and Beck for all we know could never see an NHL game, as opposed to the 30 goal scoring scenario you brought up. It works both ways. Like i said, being good now is better than meeting 'said' potential, ESPECIALLY when 'said' potential is at best a 20 goal scorer. Beck is no Radulov type player. Sure he has some nice hands but so does Marty, SK, AK, Leggy, and to be honest i dont see him being better than any of those said players. Bold statement? I think not. I get that players get projected and ranked and all hyped up by the org. that drafts them, but when 3 players get drafted in the same year and one (bourque) makes it to the NHL first you have to rank him ahead of the other prospects in my mind because he made the jump sooner and is having an instant impact compared to others.

Once again, I never knocked either players im just saying TO ME Bourque is the better prospect currently compared to Budish and Beck. Could that change, of course. But I have an itch trotz and poile would agree with me on Bourque, hence why Bourque got the call up and not any other player. Sure one could say he plays a different game compared to Beck and Budish but he was the one that was the most far along according to the coaching staff. Isnt that what drafting prospects is all about developing them and having them meet said potential to play on your team? Bourque has got them beat by more than a few steps in that department. Which is why my pick is for Bourque being the better ranked prospect RIGHT NOW. Like i said anything could change, for example Ellis in now our #1 ranked prospect now over Josi.

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04-22-2012, 02:23 PM
  #34
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So would you say Blum is the better prospect since he beat Josi to the NHL? That's the logic you're using. Whoever gets to the bigs first is better? Also, I wasn't comparing Landeskog to anyone, I was just stating draft year should have no bearing in the discussion, it's really moot at the end of the day.

You also said, right now, Bourque is the better prospect, yes, he is because he's making a difference and playing well but that does not mean he is the better long term prospect. It just means he's better now. Plenty of guys were good the first time around the league, Blum included and look where he ended up, in Milwaukee.

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04-22-2012, 03:21 PM
  #35
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is bourque a prospect by hf standards anymore?

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04-22-2012, 03:46 PM
  #36
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is bourque a prospect by hf standards anymore?
He has 43 RS games which amounts to an accrued season. I don't think he is

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04-22-2012, 07:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
So would you say Blum is the better prospect since he beat Josi to the NHL? That's the logic you're using. Whoever gets to the bigs first is better? Also, I wasn't comparing Landeskog to anyone, I was just stating draft year should have no bearing in the discussion, it's really moot at the end of the day.

You also said, right now, Bourque is the better prospect, yes, he is because he's making a difference and playing well but that does not mean he is the better long term prospect. It just means he's better now. Plenty of guys were good the first time around the league, Blum included and look where he ended up, in Milwaukee.
That is why i have been saying anything can change, but as of right now Bourque is the better prospect (i guess not anymore according to games played) and he should be ranked higher. Blum got sent down for a reason, terrible play, but Josi has stayed up for a reason, great play, ala bourque.. Josi is better than Blum right now, anything can change, like i said earlier and will continue to say. But to me a huge factor in deciding which prospect is better has to include progression and bourque has them both beat. Yeah some power forwards take longer to develop (budish) but that can be said about every position. Why do you think these ratings change every year and even every month? Because its hard to predict what will happen, aka blum (these boards last playoffs wouldve never guessed he would be in MIL now) Im just saying i think bourques style of play is what makes him a sure stick in the NHL compared to someone like beck who reminds me of o'reilly.

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04-22-2012, 08:14 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by CantBeatMyPekka View Post
That is why i have been saying anything can change, but as of right now Bourque is the better prospect (i guess not anymore according to games played) and he should be ranked higher. Blum got sent down for a reason, terrible play, but Josi has stayed up for a reason, great play, ala bourque.. Josi is better than Blum right now, anything can change, like i said earlier and will continue to say. But to me a huge factor in deciding which prospect is better has to include progression and bourque has them both beat. Yeah some power forwards take longer to develop (budish) but that can be said about every position. Why do you think these ratings change every year and even every month? Because its hard to predict what will happen, aka blum (these boards last playoffs wouldve never guessed he would be in MIL now) Im just saying i think bourques style of play is what makes him a sure stick in the NHL compared to someone like beck who reminds me of o'reilly.
LOL. That last line made me laugh. Have you seen Beck play in camp? He is nothing like O'Reilly at all. O'Reilly was a playmaker and Beck is a shooter. He probably shoots more than anyone I've ever seen at camp. Give him the puck in the offensive zone and he's shooting.

You never answered my question though, according to what you've said, since a guy, Blum, makes it to the NHL first, he is a better prospect/player than someone who is with the team right now, Josi. That is what you were saying about Bourque since he made it to the NHL ahead of Beck and Budish. So does that make Josi better or worse than Blum at this point?

Like I've said all along, ratings are based on now AND the future. While Bourque is doing a great job right now, I'd like to revisit this conversation 5 and 10 years down the line.

Best part of this discussion is that we're talking about good players.

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04-22-2012, 08:31 PM
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Thanks glenngineer. You are correct.

If hf wanted to rank players by NHL success alone we would just rank them 1 to 20 based on current season point totals. I believe monkey can do that... Not very interesting and it's not what hf rankings are about.

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04-22-2012, 08:49 PM
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Regardless, a lot of people here have always thought Josi would be a better player overall than ellis or blum. I am shocked he is not #1.

Not touching the Borque one, however, I have never been that confident about Budish. I have not heard positive things about him from people I have met from UM's athletic department, nor was I all that impressed when I saw him live. That being said, he certainly has been injured a lot and may have been playing injured to two games I saw him in.

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04-22-2012, 10:54 PM
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Regardless, a lot of people here have always thought Josi would be a better player overall than ellis or blum. I am shocked he is not #1.

.
Right now Josi is the hot D-Prospect. Last year it was Blum. Next year could be Ellis. Now I agree that I can see Josi on a top pair while I see Ellis and Blum more as 2nd pair guys. I see more offensivve potential in those guys, yet I see superior defensive play from Josi, but not as much offensivly.

hell I hope all 3 stick to be honest.

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04-22-2012, 11:18 PM
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Right now Josi is the hot D-Prospect. Last year it was Blum. Next year could be Ellis. Now I agree that I can see Josi on a top pair while I see Ellis and Blum more as 2nd pair guys. I see more offensivve potential in those guys, yet I see superior defensive play from Josi, but not as much offensivly.

hell I hope all 3 stick to be honest.
He maybe now, but since we drafted Josi I have been as high as a kite on him.

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04-23-2012, 01:46 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
So would you say Blum is the better prospect since he beat Josi to the NHL? That's the logic you're using. Whoever gets to the bigs first is better? Also, I wasn't comparing Landeskog to anyone, I was just stating draft year should have no bearing in the discussion, it's really moot at the end of the day.

You also said, right now, Bourque is the better prospect, yes, he is because he's making a difference and playing well but that does not mean he is the better long term prospect. It just means he's better now. Plenty of guys were good the first time around the league, Blum included and look where he ended up, in Milwaukee.
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LOL. That last line made me laugh. Have you seen Beck play in camp? He is nothing like O'Reilly at all. O'Reilly was a playmaker and Beck is a shooter. He probably shoots more than anyone I've ever seen at camp. Give him the puck in the offensive zone and he's shooting.

You never answered my question though, according to what you've said, since a guy, Blum, makes it to the NHL first, he is a better prospect/player than someone who is with the team right now, Josi. That is what you were saying about Bourque since he made it to the NHL ahead of Beck and Budish. So does that make Josi better or worse than Blum at this point?

Like I've said all along, ratings are based on now AND the future. While Bourque is doing a great job right now, I'd like to revisit this conversation 5 and 10 years down the line.

Best part of this discussion is that we're talking about good players.

At the moment, yes, bourque is the better player/prospect due to him being in the NHL and contributing in a very mature way. My logic isnt 100% based on he made it to the NHL first, its how he got there first. He obviously showed signs of being further developed and farther along in his game on both sides of the puck, which we have all seen. He is trusted to play on a line with Legwand and Radulov in the playoffs, by Barry Trotz. Im fully aware that prospect evaluation involves judging now and the future but like ive said earlier its all speculation until one proves themselves. Bourque has proved himself thus far. Sure anything could change ala blum. But wasnt Josi supposed to be the call up instead but was injured so coincidentally blum got the chance and stuck? if true that means Josi has always been regarded as the better prospect in the managements eyes. I mean Josi to me will be the better player. His maturity is growing every game.

I also will enjoy looking back at this conversation, if possible in a few years, because it is a lot of speculation involved in this debate.


EDIT: also the beck and O'reilly comparison is no where near off-base because oreilly was a beast in the AHL and i bet Beck will put up similar goal totals as Oreilly in the AHL. Oreilly had 2 more goals and 25 more points than Beck in his first year in the AHL, granted in 4 more games , but you get the point.

Time will tell if Beck tears it up, and i really hope he does.


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04-23-2012, 09:15 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
LOL. That last line made me laugh. Have you seen Beck play in camp? He is nothing like O'Reilly at all. O'Reilly was a playmaker and Beck is a shooter. He probably shoots more than anyone I've ever seen at camp. Give him the puck in the offensive zone and he's shooting.

You never answered my question though, according to what you've said, since a guy, Blum, makes it to the NHL first, he is a better prospect/player than someone who is with the team right now, Josi. That is what you were saying about Bourque since he made it to the NHL ahead of Beck and Budish. So does that make Josi better or worse than Blum at this point?

Like I've said all along, ratings are based on now AND the future. While Bourque is doing a great job right now, I'd like to revisit this conversation 5 and 10 years down the line.

Best part of this discussion is that we're talking about good players.
When did you start discussing things logically lol

Well stated man

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